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#Post#: 9529--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quakerism: The Silent Witness
By: Brad Date: November 12, 2014, 5:23 pm
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=896.msg9528#msg9528
date=1415833656]
It is worth noting that Israel was first given "written words"
after they did not want to hear the Voice of God.
i also think of this:
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and
is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for
instruction in righteousness:
I cannot say exactly what books he means there; but if it is
Scripture, we should be ready to be corrected by it if need be.
Yet when one visits forums or hears men debating things, how
many are willing to be corrected by anything from the Bible?
It seems to me that many read it to try to prove what they
already believe rather than to try to find holes in their
understanding. It also seems to me that few read it hoping to
become more righteous; on the contrary, just reading the Bible
seems to make some people feel righteous. They can read it, and
five minutes later forget what they read -- it's almost like a
"fix" to them, a drug that makes them feel good.
[/quote]
Yes, when that passage was written, it was only speaking of OT
stuff. And indeed, when people hear something they dont like
in scripture, they quickly look for any other interpretation,
that satisfies their own pre-existing bias. I know I have a
bias against those who focus too much on the intellect, in the
same way usually the same people have a bias against being
inspired by anything other than scripture.
#Post#: 9530--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quakerism: The Silent Witness
By: Kerry Date: November 12, 2014, 7:36 pm
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[quote author=Brad link=topic=896.msg9529#msg9529
date=1415834598]
Yes, when that passage was written, it was only speaking of OT
stuff. And indeed, when people hear something they dont like
in scripture, they quickly look for any other interpretation,
that satisfies their own pre-existing bias. I know I have a
bias against those who focus too much on the intellect, in the
same way usually the same people have a bias against being
inspired by anything other than scripture.
[/quote]I tend to be suspicious of people who want to make a
living by dealing with ideas. "Give me ten dollars and I'll
give you an idea."
I also tire of some kinds of thinking when it gets too long and
intellectual; and then when it's over, the person thinks he
proved something. An argument is only as good as the ideas
you start with. People can start with ideas that aren't right
and build castles in the air out of them. For me, ideas should
match up with some kind of reality.
I read some things and say to myself, "I have no idea what he's
talking about and I doubt he does either." People sometimes
tell me I'm an intellectual. Perhaps, but some words make me
dizzy. Words like ontological and exegetical. Honest,
sometimes I have to look such words up. Then after the
conversation is over, I forget what they mean. Yes, sometimes
such words may be useful or even necessary; but it seems to me a
lot of times plainer language would be better.
#Post#: 9531--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quakerism: The Silent Witness
By: coldwar Date: November 12, 2014, 10:03 pm
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Mike - I opened the link you provided - man, there's a lot of
stuff there! I'll read of it what I'm able at a later time;
meanwhile, here's something to consider:
1 Thess. 2:19 "Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus
Christ at his coming?
They are in the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ at His coming!
It's present tense! Paul emphasizes this with “Yes you are our
glory and our joy”."
This is something I wrote a long time ago here, in the "Letters
First" Discussion. I believe now, looking back, I was becoming a
Quaker without even knowing it, and long before I discovered
there is a group of them in my own little town, and that I
already knew three of the people in the group from other places.
I recently found out about it by Googling "Quakers in Canada".
But the point I want to emphasize is that Jesus has already
returned ( a "second coming") 2000 years ago - the Quakers
realize this fully. "Jesus wants to teach you himself" is the
top article on the website you presented. there's another titled
"The Second Appearance of Jesus with his Kingdom is a Personal
Experience"
It's also interesting to see how this Site puts in a wee bit of
fine print, like a caveat - "Note: These writings only refer to
the early Quakers. Many of today's Quaker sects don't require a
belief in Christ or even God."
This is true. I cannot assume that all 10 of the members in the
little circle I attend are indeed all Christians - I really
don't know that. But, if "Jesus wants to teach you himself",
then I simply trust that He is teaching even the non
-Christians, even if certain Quaker sects in larger cities might
proudly boast "we don't believe in Jesus as the only way" or
some such thing - would Jesus not even be teaching them, just as
Jesus first taught Saul / Paul when He knocked him off his horse
on the Damascus Road?
I guess a bit of the irony you might see, Mike, is that these
Quakers may worship in silence, but they sure do write a lot!!
There's the whole "Selections from George Fox" bit. Yes, that is
ironic - it's like Fox and all who came after him needed to
write, perhaps to help guide Neophytes, and to form some kind of
Quaker Apologetics? My tactic is going to be to NOT read much of
this, if any, for the next little while - I wish to see more of
how Jesus teaches me in the silence, and then I'll read Fox and
the other Editors to see how it squares. I don't want to abandon
all of my biases from the past only to immediately take up new
ones. Do you (and others) think this is a good tactic for me to
follow at this point?
Dave
#Post#: 9532--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quakerism: The Silent Witness
By: Mike Date: November 13, 2014, 3:25 am
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[quote author=coldwar link=topic=896.msg9531#msg9531
date=1415851409]
I wish to see more of how Jesus teaches me in the silence, and
then I'll read Fox and the other Editors to see how it squares.
I don't want to abandon all of my biases from the past only to
immediately take up new ones. Do you (and others) think this is
a good tactic for me to follow at this point?
Dave
[/quote]
I can only say that I reckon it might also be a good tactic for
me as well as for you.
#Post#: 9533--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quakerism: The Silent Witness
By: Kerry Date: November 13, 2014, 5:59 am
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[quote author=coldwar link=topic=896.msg9531#msg9531
date=1415851409] My tactic is going to be to NOT read much of
this, if any, for the next little while - I wish to see more of
how Jesus teaches me in the silence, and then I'll read Fox and
the other Editors to see how it squares. I don't want to abandon
all of my biases from the past only to immediately take up new
ones. Do you (and others) think this is a good tactic for me to
follow at this point?
[/quote]I don't know if it matters. It might matter if you
took what you read too seriously. If you can read with healthy
skepticism, it wouldn't matter. The danger I see is making a
teacher or some member of the clergy into an idol -- when you
think he can know things you can't.
I irked people at Scientology once when they asked me if I
believed something was true. I said, "I don't know." This set
them into a tizzy. I told them Hubbard had written not to
believe anything he wrote just because he wrote it. If it made
sense to you based on your life's experiences, believe it. If
it didn't make sense or you didn't have experiences to judge by,
don't believe it. The people persisted. They really wanted
me to believe it. I said, "Really I don't know. I don't know
it's true and I don't it's false. I don't have experiences to
judge it by." They gave up on it then.
Ha, years later, something happened to me, and I found out
Hubbard was right. I don't regret anything. I would have been
silly to say I believed it if I didn't have a good reason for
it. When I got the experiences, then I found out he had been
right. It was also useful then.
#Post#: 9588--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quakerism: The Silent Witness
By: coldwar Date: November 21, 2014, 9:17 am
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Here are some of the hallmarks of the traditional Quakers which
resonate with me:
1) Jesus Christ has returned already "2000 years ago" to dwell
in and with His people - "Christ in you, the hope of glory"
2) Repentance from sin is essential, continuous, and not to be
taken lightly - "God be merciful to me a sinner"
3) No "Sacrements" or "Ordinances" of man can take the place of
the real thing - Quakers do not baptise with water, or take a
Eucharist / communion.
4) Worship is silent contemplation, waiting to be taught by
Christ directly; it is not music, singing, or preaching
5) Personal holiness is nearly attainable, although none are
perfect. "Purity, not sinless perfection". Further steps toward
holiness are always the goals of Quaker worship
6) Jesus Christ is "The Word", not the Bible, although
traditional Quakerism is a "bible believing" sect, and Quaher
beliefs are sourced from the bible.
7) Quakers "evangelize" with a call to repentance, but only when
the Lord directs one to do so, and more specifically, to whom to
issue the call, and how to go about it.
8) Quaker "witness" is the fruit of a holy life
9) Quakers believe that God calls everyone in every place to
repent, even in the absence of a human agent
10) Quakers believe in the ultimate restoration of all men and
women as the goal and victory of Christ's crucifixion. Those who
find the Truth in this life are the "Elect" who will enter
Christ's Kingdom and remain with Him forever, and there are few
who find this. However, those who do not find it in this life
will find it after death, once sins are purged in the lake of
fire, but having done so, must remain in the Outer Court of the
New Jerusalem, never to enjoy the intimacy of the Elect and
Christ
11) Quakers are pacifists, and contentious objectors to war
(Some aren't - they call themselves "Bad Quakers").
12) Also, strongly advocate for social justice and reform of the
legal system, in favour of restorative justice, not jails and
penitentaries.
#Post#: 9590--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quakerism: The Silent Witness
By: Runner Date: November 21, 2014, 10:25 am
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Thanks for that Dave...I didn't know that....I think I am a
Quaker and never knew it! :)
#Post#: 9592--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quakerism: The Silent Witness
By: coldwar Date: November 21, 2014, 11:55 am
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Helen - that's exactly the way I felt ;D
#Post#: 9789--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quakerism: The Silent Witness
By: Amadeus Date: December 29, 2014, 12:05 pm
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[quote]Coldwar: Here are some of the hallmarks of the
traditional Quakers which resonate with me:
1) Jesus Christ has returned already "2000 years ago" to dwell
in and with His people - "Christ in you, the hope of
glory"[/quote]
[font=courier]I am certainly with this![/font]
[quote]2) Repentance from sin is essential, continuous, and not
to be taken lightly - "God be merciful to me a sinner"[/quote]
[font=courier]Yes, repentance is not a one time accomplishment
although there certainly must be (or must have been) a first
time.[/font]
[quote]3) No "Sacrements" or "Ordinances" of man can take the
place of the real thing - Quakers do not baptise with water,
or take a Eucharist / communion.[/quote]
[font=courier]This one really caught my eye, because of the
underlined highlighted words. I have not taken a literal bread
and wine (or grape juice) communion in more than 20 years. It
seems that Helen is not the only one holding to quite a bit of
the Quaker way.[/font]
[quote]4) Worship is silent contemplation, waiting to be taught
by Christ directly; it is not music, singing, or
preaching[/quote]
[font=courier]I am out of this one personally, but I believe
that not every person is walking through exactly the same places
and experiencing exactly the same things.[/font]
[quote]5) Personal holiness is nearly attainable, although none
are perfect. "Purity, not sinless perfection". Further steps
toward holiness are always the goals of Quaker worship[/quote]
[font=courier]I believe in heading toward 'perfection' is
necessary, but the question we may ask ourselves and God is what
does Jesus mean here?
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven
is perfect." Matt 5:48
I believe in the attainment of perfection being possible through
and with God, but what exactly that perfection is, is not
necessarily what too many people believe that it is, at least,
not in the eyes of God.[/font]
[quote]6) Jesus Christ is "The Word", not the Bible, although
traditional Quakerism is a "bible believing" sect, and Quaher
beliefs are sourced from the bible.[quote]
[font=courier]Actually this is about where I am when I say that
the Bible alone is NOT the Word of God. It is a dead carcase,
but by means of God's Spirit working in us, it can be brought to
Life in us... not in the Book.[/font]
[quote]7) Quakers "evangelize" with a call to repentance, but
only when the Lord directs one to do so, and more specifically,
to whom to issue the call, and how to go about it.[/quote]
[font=courier]
This sounds right.[/font]
[quote]8) Quaker "witness" is the fruit of a holy life[/quote]
[font=courier]Hopefully this is also to be my witness.[/font]
[quote]9) Quakers believe that God calls everyone in every place
to repent, even in the absence of a human agent[/quote]
[font=courier]Of this one I remain uncertain of the
everyone.[/font]
[quote]10) Quakers believe in the ultimate restoration of all
men and women as the goal and victory of Christ's crucifixion.
Those who find the Truth in this life are the "Elect" who will
enter Christ's Kingdom and remain with Him forever, and there
are few who find this. However, those who do not find it in this
life will find it after death, once sins are purged in the lake
of fire, but having done so, must remain in the Outer Court of
the New Jerusalem, never to enjoy the intimacy of the Elect and
Christ[/quote]
[font=courier]Too much detail here for this simple mind to
declare completely for or against the Quaker way.[/font]
[quote]11) Quakers are pacifists, and contentious objectors to
war (Some aren't - they call themselves "Bad Quakers").[/quote]
[font=courier]For most of my life I was not a pacifist or CO in
that literal sense. Now that I am too old (naturally) for my
personal answer to matter, I have found myself leaning more in
that direction.[/font]
[quote]12) Also, strongly advocate for social justice and reform
of the legal system, in favour of restorative justice, not jails
and penitentaries.[/quote]
[font=courier]Would this work for those who act (and/or believe)
as if they are outside of God's realm or that there even is a
God?
The post concerning where and what Quakers are (or supposed to
be) definitely caught my eye. I had to put in my two cents as to
where I am on these things, or at least where I thing I am.
[/font]
#Post#: 10262--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quakerism: The Silent Witness
By: HOLLAND Date: January 30, 2015, 7:12 am
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There is a joy found in the inwardness of Spirit where it is
beyond words. We speak of those things that are dear to us in
words, sensing that they are feeble. We love each other feebly
and we try hard in our outward conversation, the speaking of
ourselves through our deeds. The Spirit as it manifests in us
all works in ways that we do not understand or have come to a
partial understanding. When we reach it we are happy and share
in that joy given unto us by the Spirit.
As a Friend (Quaker), I have found this thread interesting and
wish you all well in Christ.
Peace be with you!
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