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#Post#: 9348--------------------------------------------------
Born Again
By: Kerry Date: October 19, 2014, 3:14 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Several things jump out at me when reading the story about
Nicodemus. The first is how Nicodemus begins.
John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a
ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we
know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do
these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
No member of the Sanhedrin would say this and be serious.
Nicodemus is not being sincere here. He is testing Jesus to see
if Jesus can be influenced by flattery. If he can be
flattered, Nicodemus would know Jesus was not a holy man. I
say Nicodemus couldn't mean that because Moses commanded that
some prophets who performed signs and wonders should be put to
death!
Deuteronomy 13:13 If there arise among you a prophet, or a
dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto
thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not
known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that
dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know
whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with
all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep
his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him,
and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to
death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord
your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and
redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of
the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So
shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
So Nicodemus couldn't possibly have been serious. He was
testing Jesus, probing to see if he could be influenced by
flattery.
The second question is why Jesus expected Nicodemus to know what
he was talking about! People today believe Nicodemus was a
dummy who "came by night to learn the way of right"; but Jesus
expected him to know what he meant.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of
Israel, and knowest not these things?
This is amusing, really. Nicodemus is still playing dumb, "How
can these things be?" Jesus then returns the joke asking him
if he is a member of the Sanhedrin and doesn't know these
things!
The serious question for Christians however is where this "born
again" idea is found in the Old Testament. If Jesus expected
Nicodemus to know about it, where is it?
#Post#: 9350--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: twinc Date: October 19, 2014, 5:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=891.msg9348#msg9348
date=1413749669]
Several things jump out at me when reading the story about
Nicodemus. The first is how Nicodemus begins.
John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a
ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we
know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do
these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
No member of the Sanhedrin would say this and be serious.
Nicodemus is not being sincere here. He is testing Jesus to see
if Jesus can be influenced by flattery. If he can be
flattered, Nicodemus would know Jesus was not a holy man. I
say Nicodemus couldn't mean that because Moses commanded that
some prophets who performed signs and wonders should be put to
death!
Deuteronomy 13:13 If there arise among you a prophet, or a
dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto
thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not
known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that
dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know
whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with
all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep
his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him,
and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to
death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord
your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and
redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of
the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So
shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
So Nicodemus couldn't possibly have been serious. He was
testing Jesus, probing to see if he could be influenced by
flattery.
The second question is why Jesus expected Nicodemus to know what
he was talking about! People today believe Nicodemus was a
dummy who "came by night to learn the way of right"; but Jesus
expected him to know what he meant.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of
Israel, and knowest not these things?
This is amusing, really. Nicodemus is still playing dumb, "How
can these things be?" Jesus then returns the joke asking him
if he is a member of the Sanhedrin and doesn't know these
things!
The serious question for Christians however is where this "born
again" idea is found in the Old Testament. If Jesus expected
Nicodemus to know about it, where is it?
[/quote][quote author=Kerry link=topic=891.msg9348#msg9348
date=1413749669]
Several things jump out at me when reading the story about
Nicodemus. The first is how Nicodemus begins.
John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a
ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we
know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do
these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
No member of the Sanhedrin would say this and be serious.
Nicodemus is not being sincere here. He is testing Jesus to see
if Jesus can be influenced by flattery. If he can be
flattered, Nicodemus would know Jesus was not a holy man. I
say Nicodemus couldn't mean that because Moses commanded that
some prophets who performed signs and wonders should be put to
death!
Deuteronomy 13:13 If there arise among you a prophet, or a
dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto
thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not
known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that
dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know
whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with
all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep
his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him,
and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to
death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord
your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and
redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of
the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So
shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
So Nicodemus couldn't possibly have been serious. He was
testing Jesus, probing to see if he could be influenced by
flattery.
The second question is why Jesus expected Nicodemus to know what
he was talking about! People today believe Nicodemus was a
dummy who "came by night to learn the way of right"; but Jesus
expected him to know what he meant.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of
Israel, and knowest not these things?
This is amusing, really. Nicodemus is still playing dumb, "How
can these things be?" Jesus then returns the joke asking him
if he is a member of the Sanhedrin and doesn't know these
things!
The serious question for Christians however is where this "born
again" idea is found in the Old Testament. If Jesus expected
Nicodemus to know about it, where is it?
[/quote]
the problem only arises because Christians think they
understand what Jesus meant - Nicodemus as 'a master of Israel
knew exactly what Jesus meant - so guess exactly what He meant
that Nicodemus understood but Christians do not and really do
not need to know what was addressed to Nicodemus as a jew and
not a Christian - twinc
#Post#: 9356--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: Runner Date: October 19, 2014, 6:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]quote Kerry...The serious question for Christians however
is where this "born again" idea is found in the Old Testament.
If Jesus expected Nicodemus to know about it, where is it?
[/quote]
I agree, interesting. That's why I think they both spoke about
more than what we read....I think we only have a few verses of
the conversation.
This is the passage which is used to all of us who were
evangelized ...other than "repent" the born again message
wasn't around was it. Then it was made into a kind of ritual. I
still use it myself because evangelicals all understand the
christianese we speak and it make life easier.
I do think that Nicademus had a real seeking heart..and became a
secret desciple as did Joseph of Arimathea, when 'up they
popped' to be counted with the rest of the followerrs.
#Post#: 9361--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: Kerry Date: October 19, 2014, 8:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Helen link=topic=891.msg9356#msg9356
date=1413763018]
I agree, interesting. That's why I think they both spoke about
more than what we read....I think we only have a few verses of
the conversation. [/quote]
What is also interesting is that apparently only John had this
story. If anyone else had it, they didn't tell.
[quote]This is the passage which is used to all of us who were
evangelized ...other than "repent" the born again message
wasn't around was it. Then it was made into a kind of ritual. I
still use it myself because evangelicals all understand the
christianese we speak and it make life easier.[/quote]People use
the phrase, but do they really understand what is meant?
[quote]I do think that Nicademus had a real seeking heart..and
became a secret desciple as did Joseph of Arimathea, when 'up
they popped' to be counted with the rest of the followerrs.
[/quote]I think he became a disciple after this conversation. I
think the reason he came by night was just in case Jesus was
another fraud -- it wouldn't be good for it to be known that a
member of the Sanhedrin was visiting such a person. I also
think Nicodemus was an "inside source" for some of the other
information John alone tells us about.
John easily could have censored part of the conversation. After
all, it was a "mystery" that people who knew were not supposed
to talk about.
[quote author=twinc link=topic=891.msg9350#msg9350
date=1413757110]
the problem only arises because Christians think they
understand what Jesus meant - Nicodemus as 'a master of Israel
knew exactly what Jesus meant - so guess exactly what He meant
that Nicodemus understood but Christians do not and really do
not need to know what was addressed to Nicodemus as a jew and
not a Christian - twinc
[/quote]I don't think this changed. Is there anything new under
the sun?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except
a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into
the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is
born of the Spirit is spirit.
Isn't this the same mystery Paul hints at here:
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not
all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this
mortal must put on immortality.
#Post#: 9365--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: coldwar Date: October 20, 2014, 7:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
^Helen - "This is the passage which is used to all of us who
were evangelized ...other than "repent" the born again message
wasn't around was it."
If you consider that the Gospels, especially John's Gospel, were
written quite a few years after the Christian Epistles, there
most likely were "rumblings" of the idea among Jesus' disciples
immediately before it was written about, within this new "cult"
(from a Jewish perspective) called Christianity, which Nicodemus
would've heard about. Peter refers to it in an early writing:
1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of
incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for
ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as
the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof
falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever.
And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
Paul also, soon after the encounter but before the encounter is
written about, using different words, that convey the same idea
-
Gal. 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one
by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of
the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman
was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are
the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth
to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in
Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in
bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is
free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written (note
- there's your Old Testament), Rejoice, thou barren that bearest
not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the
desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him
that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? (OT again) Cast out the
bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be
heir (in the same manner would be my understanding) with the son
of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of
the bondwoman, but of the free.
As a side note, I did attempt to look up "born again" in the OT,
and of course didn't find the phrase, but I did find this -
Gen. 29: 31 ķAnd when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he
opened her womb: but Rachel was barren. 32 And Leah conceived,
and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said,
Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my
husband will love me. 33 And she conceived again, and bare a
son; and said, Because the LORD hath heard that I was hated, he
hath therefore given me this son also: and she called his name
Simeon. 34 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said,
Now this time will my husband be joined unto me, because I have
born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi. 35 And
she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I
praise the LORD: therefore she called his name Judah; and left
bearing.
This has a striking resemblance to Paul's writing, with one
woman rejected, and another becoming the one to whom children
were born. With each of the three births, Leah expresses strong
desire for a promise toward her husband - just as we do in
Christ. Perhaps the Sanhedrin had certain traditions surrounding
this, which both Jesus and Nicodemus knew about?
More from Paul, writing in metaphor about this very thing, again
written and in circulation years before the Gospels were
written, shows how "born again" might have entered the
mainstream of the very earliest of Christian thought -
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect.
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither,
because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:
but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which
are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of
God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and
Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca
also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For
the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or
evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand,
not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto
her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written,
Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Gal. 4: 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh
persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so as it is
now.
There's lots of Old Testament in what Paul wrote about this
matter. When Jesus and Nicodemus had their conversation, nothing
was written down, but Jesus, being the living word, surely
would've anticipated how "born again" would become the most
king-pin phrase of what writings would follow.
Finally, John, of whom it is believed wrote his Epistles shortly
before the Gospel that has his name on it, and in which Jesus is
using a phrase that Peter would shortly have written down, in
reference to being born anew of the Spirit -
1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every
one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed
remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God
4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and
every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God
5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:
and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is
begotten of him.
5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this
is the victory that overcometh the world, is our faith.
5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he
that is begotten of God restrains himself, and that wicked
toucheth him not.
So I think "born again" was becoming a common part of Christian
parlance coincident with this encounter between Jesus and
Nicodemus, and it draws strong allegories from the Old
Testament. It is my belief that it is used correctly today,
except for one thing - there are too many people around who say
the are "born again", but do not restrain themselves from
sinning, and probably don't even realize how they are sinning in
most cases. Too many are like the Corinthians. When Nicodemus
said - "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the
second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" - he was
indeed, as you say, sporting with Jesus because he had most
likely heard the phrase "born again" being discussed among his
disciples, and wanted to investigate.
#Post#: 9366--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: Kerry Date: October 20, 2014, 9:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=coldwar link=topic=891.msg9365#msg9365
date=1413809584]
1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of
incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for
ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as
the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof
falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever.
And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto
you.[/quote]
Compare this passage about "born again" not of corruptible seed
but "by the word of God" with what Jesus quoted to Satan:
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall
not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out
of the mouth of God.
Deuteronomy 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to
hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither
did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth
not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of
the mouth of the Lord doth man live.
People are apt to want to substitute "Jesus" when they see the
expression "word of God"; but could Jesus have meant himself
when he quoted that? Could we read it as "Man shall not live
by bread alone but by every Jesus that proceeds from the mouth
of God?"
I think that would be impossible. I maintain that early on,
the meaning of the "word was made flesh" got misunderstood.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and
we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the
Father,) full of grace and truth.
This got interpreted in a way that personified Jesus as the
"eternal Word." Justin Martyr may have been the first person
to introduce this take on it. It was part of the effort to
find evidence for the belief in the divinity of Jesus somewhere
in the Bible. Let me set aside the controversy over the
divinity of Jesus as unresolvable here. Let us focus
momentarily on the earthly flesh which was certainly not divine
when he was born as a child to Mary.
All the debates in the world over how Jesus could be "fully God"
and "fully human" simultaneously do not instruct us in how we
are to be like him; and John says we will be like him when we
see him as he is. Note that.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not
yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall
appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
When John says the word was made flesh and "we beheld his
glory", he is saying something also about people are to become
like him. Jumping now to James, and what he says about "the
word":
James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of
naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which
is able to save your souls.
The "Word" is out there, to begin with, coming from God by one
means or another. If we hear it and obey, it is lodged in us,
in our hearts. It is like the seed of wheat sown in fertile
soil. It is meant to grow and grow; and it goes through
different stages. Different things are happening at these
different stages. The person is receiving different "words."
He must hear and obey them all. Man shall live "by every word"
that comes from God. The person who hears and obeys them all is
"becoming the word" in his flesh just as Jesus did. The Word
is being made manifest again.
[quote]Gal. 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons,
the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who
was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the
freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for
these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which
gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount
Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is
in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above
is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written
(note - there's your Old Testament), Rejoice, thou barren that
bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for
the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an
husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of
promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh
persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is
now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? (OT again) Cast
out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman
shall not be heir (in the same manner would be my understanding)
with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not
children of the bondwoman, but of the free.[/quote]
Hagar was a pagan when Ishmael was conceived. He started off
wrong then. "All filthiness and naughtiness" had not yet been
set aside, so she was not able to receive the word properly.
The seed of immortality cannot be sown in the heart not
dedicated to purity and truth.
Here the story of the Virgin Birth takes on doctrinal
importance. Again let me ask people to put aside any
controversial doctrines about Mary so we can see how we must
become like her. Perhaps our histories are not as pure as
hers; but we must want our souls to be pure and want to keep
them pure like hers. We will not give birth to a child
physically as she did; but we should hear the message from
Heaven just as she did. She heard it from Gabriel, and we hear
it from a minister of God who is a man. She was told that the
Holy Spirit would overshadow her and she would conceive. I say
something similar happens to the person with the heart that
longs for purity and righteousness when he hears the "good
news."
When someone seeks purity, the seed of the woman in him has
come awake enough to know it's there. The seed of the serpent
may still exists within him; but the important thing is the
awakened "seed of the woman."
[quote]As a side note, I did attempt to look up "born again" in
the OT, and of course didn't find the phrase, but I did find
this -
Gen. 29: 31 ķAnd when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he
opened her womb: but Rachel was barren. 32 And Leah conceived,
and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said,
Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my
husband will love me. 33 And she conceived again, and bare a
son; and said, Because the LORD hath heard that I was hated, he
hath therefore given me this son also: and she called his name
Simeon. 34 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said,
Now this time will my husband be joined unto me, because I have
born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi. 35 And
she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I
praise the LORD: therefore she called his name Judah; and left
bearing.
This has a striking resemblance to Paul's writing, with one
woman rejected, and another becoming the one to whom children
were born. With each of the three births, Leah expresses strong
desire for a promise toward her husband - just as we do in
Christ. Perhaps the Sanhedrin had certain traditions surrounding
this, which both Jesus and Nicodemus knew about?[/quote]Nothing
that I know of that would bear on this.
[quote]More from Paul, writing in metaphor about this very
thing, again written and in circulation years before the Gospels
were written, shows how "born again" might have entered the
mainstream of the very earliest of Christian thought -
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect.
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither,
because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:
but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which
are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of
God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and
Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca
also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For
the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or
evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand,
not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto
her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written,
Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Gal. 4: 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh
persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so as it is
now.
There's lots of Old Testament in what Paul wrote about this
matter. When Jesus and Nicodemus had their conversation, nothing
was written down, but Jesus, being the living word, surely
would've anticipated how "born again" would become the most
king-pin phrase of what writings would follow.[/quote]
Finally, John, of whom it is believed wrote his Epistles shortly
before the Gospel that has his name on it, and in which Jesus is
using a phrase that Peter would shortly have written down, in
reference to being born anew of the Spirit -
1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every
one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed
remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God
4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and
every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God
5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:
and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is
begotten of him.
5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this
is the victory that overcometh the world, is our faith.
5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he
that is begotten of God restrains himself, and that wicked
toucheth him not.
So I think "born again" was becoming a common part of Christian
parlance coincident with this encounter between Jesus and
Nicodemus, and it draws strong allegories from the Old
Testament. It is my belief that it is used correctly today,
except for one thing - there are too many people around who say
the are "born again", but do not restrain themselves from
sinning, and probably don't even realize how they are sinning in
most cases. Too many are like the Corinthians. When Nicodemus
said - "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the
second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" - he was
indeed, as you say, sporting with Jesus because he had most
likely heard the phrase "born again" being discussed among his
disciples, and wanted to investigate.
[/quote]Among Catholics, the Orthodox and I believe also the
Anglicans and perhaps Lutherans, "born again" is taken to mean
the new spiritual nature given after baptism. This is close to
the truth, I think, but not the whole truth. To derive this
idea of "born again," you need to say that birth by flesh is one
birth and birth by "water and spirit" is another. I say there
are three ways of being born. I don't think we need to parse
the words of Jesus in a way to make it two.
Consider the three announcements. First the birth of Jesus in
the flesh was announced before he was born to Mary and after to
the shepherds.
Luke 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I
bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all
people.
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour,
which is Christ the Lord.
The birth (or conception) by water was also announced:
Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my
beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
The birth or conception by Spirit -- and note too how
"overshadowed" is used just as it was with the conception of
Jesus in the womb of Mary:
Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud
overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which
said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye
him.
Are these not examples of three births or conceptions: Of
flesh, water and Spirit?
Of people who way they are born again yet still sin? Perhaps
they are born of water; but I cannot see that they have been
born yet of the Spirit. I take what John said literally or
close to it. The person born of the Spirit could sin but it
would be next to impossible. He would have to force it. I
mean now by "sin" deliberate and knowing erring. As long as we
are in mortal physical bodies, we will always be prone to make
mistakes even if we don't want to. One reason is we're limited
by what we know and what we don't. We're not even close to
omniscient. With insufficient information, of course, we'll
make mistakes. I think when John says the person who is born of
God cannot sin, he means willfully and knowingly.
There are few people who are born of the Spirit while their
physical bodies are alive. Most people get born of the Spirit
later, after the deaths of their mortal bodies. People who say
you are born again just by praying the sinners' prayer are
trying to make it a little too easy, contrary to the Scriptures.
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way,
which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
#Post#: 9367--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: Kerry Date: October 20, 2014, 9:41 pm
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[quote author=coldwar link=topic=891.msg9365#msg9365
date=1413809584]
Finally, John, of whom it is believed wrote his Epistles shortly
before the Gospel that has his name on it, and in which Jesus is
using a phrase that Peter would shortly have written down, in
reference to being born anew of the Spirit -
1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every
one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed
remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God
4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and
every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God
5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:
and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is
begotten of him.
5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this
is the victory that overcometh the world, is our faith.
5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he
that is begotten of God restrains himself, and that wicked
toucheth him not.[/quote]
Confusion exists over this entire topic, and the writings of
John are obscured. You will often see people misquote this --
and it's easy to do (I did it once myself before being reproved
and then reading it more carefully):
1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that
confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come
in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of
antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even
now already is it in the world.
The theologians have drummed into people's minds that this is
about the incarnation of Jesus as a baby with mortal flesh.
Here again we see the wish to "prove" the divinity of Jesus at
work. When they quote this, they often alter it to, "Every
spirit that confesses Jesus Christ came in the flesh." To
them, it's about proving Jesus was God in the flesh. They
want to prove it and they read it that way even that means
changing the tense of the verb.
I say that unless Jesus Christ is in your flesh, something of
the antichrist is still lurking here or there. Something is
there "instead of" Christ that needs to replaced by the Christ
Spirit. If we sin and see it, that is the Spirit showing us
that something of the antichrist is still about; and that is a
clue he has not yet been born of the Spirit. If all the
darkness has been cast out, the person who has been filled by
Light completely cannnot sin.
There also seems to be a difference between being conceived or
begotten and then "born" as a fully formed being.
#Post#: 9377--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: Runner Date: October 21, 2014, 4:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I do see things in the spirit as progressive..the seed must go
through the stages to the final harvest. Then that causes us to
ask when is life life? Some say at conception, some say when
the baby's heart beats, some say not until it is out of the
womb.
I say life is life , but it is not the fullness of life. Life
(light) is within the seed. I 'felt' different the day that I
'saw'/light what God had done is sacrificing His son " for me."
The joy and peace was overwhelming..I actually 'felt' connected
to God. That is a birthing. A birthing out of a darkeness and
seperation, into a new relationship with God.
Now whether that is 'born again' or not, I don't know...but it
was "a" birthing. But I believe that change continues ..until
the final change metamorphosis.
Maybe the final metamorphosis is being born again...Im not sure.
Paul talks about being birthed from the kingdom darkness into
the kingdom of light. I must say I 'felt' all born again and new
when I came into light. :)
#Post#: 9383--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: Kerry Date: October 21, 2014, 11:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Helen link=topic=891.msg9377#msg9377
date=1413926965]
I do see things in the spirit as progressive..the seed must go
through the stages to the final harvest. Then that causes us to
ask when is life life? Some say at conception, some say when
the baby's heart beats, some say not until it is out of the
womb.
I say life is life , but it is not the fullness of life. Life
(light) is within the seed. I 'felt' different the day that I
'saw'/light what God had done is sacrificing His son " for me."
The joy and peace was overwhelming..I actually 'felt' connected
to God. That is a birthing. A birthing out of a darkeness and
seperation, into a new relationship with God.
Now whether that is 'born again' or not, I don't know...but it
was "a" birthing. But I believe that change continues ..until
the final change metamorphosis.
Maybe the final metamorphosis is being born again...Im not sure.
Paul talks about being birthed from the kingdom darkness into
the kingdom of light. I must say I 'felt' all born again and new
when I came into light. :)
[/quote]I would say that what you experienced was birth by
water. What you saw happening with your father had something
to do with birth by the Spirit.
#Post#: 9385--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: coldwar Date: October 22, 2014, 6:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
^ "The "Word" is out there, to begin with, coming from God by
one means or another. If we hear it and obey, it is lodged in
us, in our hearts. It is like the seed of wheat sown in
fertile soil. It is meant to grow and grow; and it goes
through different stages. Different things are happening at
these different stages. The person is receiving different
"words." He must hear and obey them all. Man shall live "by
every word" that comes from God. The person who hears and obeys
them all is "becoming the word" in his flesh just as Jesus did.
The Word is being made manifest again."The "Word" is out there,
to begin with, coming from God by one means or another. If we
hear it and obey, it is lodged in us, in our hearts. It is
like the seed of wheat sown in fertile soil. It is meant to
grow and grow; and it goes through different stages. Different
things are happening at these different stages. The person is
receiving different "words." He must hear and obey them all.
Man shall live "by every word" that comes from God. The person
who hears and obeys them all is "becoming the word" in his flesh
just as Jesus did. The Word is being made manifest again."
^ "Here the story of the Virgin Birth takes on doctrinal
importance. Again let me ask people to put aside any
controversial doctrines about Mary so we can see how we must
become like her. Perhaps our histories are not as pure as
hers; but we must want our souls to be pure and want to keep
them pure like hers. We will not give birth to a child
physically as she did; but we should hear the message from
Heaven just as she did. She heard it from Gabriel, and we hear
it from a minister of God who is a man. She was told that the
Holy Spirit would overshadow her and she would conceive. I say
something similar happens to the person with the heart that
longs for purity and righteousness when he hears the "good
news.""
Yes, I agree with all of this - it certainly parallels the
growth I'm experiencing - when growth happens, change also
happens, which is something that isn't taught in Sunday Schools.
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