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#Post#: 8464--------------------------------------------------
Love
By: George Date: July 6, 2014, 8:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Why does God have to Love? If you believe that he isn't bound by
any law and chooses to Love, then why believe that he indeed
Loves all?
#Post#: 8465--------------------------------------------------
Re: Love
By: Kerry Date: July 6, 2014, 9:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=826.msg8464#msg8464
date=1404696383]
Why does God have to Love? If you believe that he isn't bound by
any law and chooses to Love, then why believe that he indeed
Loves all?
[/quote]Do you think God created the universe to have something
He would hate?
I ask why would God make laws that displeased Him, that He would
want to break? The idea of wanting to break the rules is a
human one; and the simple truth is if you do break the rules to
"win," you know it's not a real win.
#Post#: 8466--------------------------------------------------
Re: Love
By: Runner Date: July 6, 2014, 9:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hello George.
A quick answer for me is...He cannot do anything else! He not
only loves...He IS love.
It is His very being, Himself.
1 John 4:8Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
1 John 4:8 "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is
love."
#Post#: 8467--------------------------------------------------
Re: Love
By: Jella Date: July 6, 2014, 11:11 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I have to believe that everything God does stems from
love...because anything else would mean life is a joke and
hopeless. If God is a God....an actual God....and then most of
all, THE God...then I have to believe it.
Besides, I have things all around me that confirm this. This
beautiful creation could stem from nothing but a Creator that is
purely positive...and purely beautiful...and purely love.
I also see that He does not manipulate...and because people that
say they love and obey, but have never had an opportunity to do
anything else but 'love' and 'obey' (as in Eden) He knows it is
not from the heart...so He opened the door wide open for our
free will to activate...so we could make real choices...which
can lead to real love and obedience...even tho it was a risk
because He knew that the bad would enter this world as well...
#Post#: 8468--------------------------------------------------
Re: Love
By: James Date: July 7, 2014, 4:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
God just is.......
John 4 24 God is a spirit
I Chro 10.13 God is faithful
1 Tim 4 4 God is Good
2 Chro 1 18 God is true
1John 4 16 God is love
1 John 1 5 God is light
Heb 12 29 God is a consuming fire
Zech 8 23God is with you
I guess there are more, but these came to mind. The God that is
all this is one with us, Glory!!
#Post#: 8474--------------------------------------------------
Re: Love
By: George Date: July 7, 2014, 7:08 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=826.msg8465#msg8465
date=1404699792]
[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=826.msg8464#msg8464
date=1404696383]
Why does God have to Love? If you believe that he isn't bound by
any law and chooses to Love, then why believe that he indeed
Loves all?
[/quote]Do you think God created the universe to have something
He would hate?
I ask why would God make laws that displeased Him, that He would
want to break? The idea of wanting to break the rules is a
human one; and the simple truth is if you do break the rules to
"win," you know it's not a real win.
[/quote]
Hi Kerry, I think we agree that the opposite of Love is not
hate? If I am correct, then why ask if he created something to
hate? What If God is first cause, "Creator" in that he was the
beginning, What does that have to do with Love? First cause
"God" had no other option but to be what it is, true? Otherwise,
then there would be no here and now.
Why does the question of laws displeasing him or breaking them
arise? What laws were required to be first cause? If first cause
or creator was required to only act out of Love, by who? Not
even the bible tells us that God creator was required to create
out of Love.
What about when he created hell? Seems that story could be taken
as he was creating out of anger, could it not? I know you say we
should see Love in everything read within the bible so we say to
ourselves God created hell out of Love in order to contain the
"devil" Yet we read he first allows the "devil" to roam the
earth and travel to and fro from heaven to earth. Its not until
after God is finish using the "devil" to play devils advocate
and try and trick Gods creation over to the dark side. Once all
of creation has risen above the temptation, then God will bound
the "devil" to hell where it will be destroyed. So God will
destroy that what he created out of Love? Because that will be
the Loving thing to do at that time, after all have risen above
his temptation and there is no one else for him to seek to
destroy, the Loving thing is to destroy the "devil" and all his
followers for eternity?
[quote author=Helen link=topic=826.msg8466#msg8466
date=1404699930]
Hello George.
A quick answer for me is...He cannot do anything else! He not
only loves...He IS love.
It is His very being, Himself.
1 John 4:8Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
1 John 4:8 "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is
love."
[/quote]
Hello Helen, I appeal to the quick answer, does that make this
an absolute truth?
[quote author=Jella link=topic=826.msg8467#msg8467
date=1404706301]
I have to believe that everything God does stems from
love...because anything else would mean life is a joke and
hopeless.
[/quote]
Hi Jella, I ask, to who? to who would it mean that life is a
joke? Even if there was no God who Loves all, wouldn't life
still be worth living, and living by loving in every way?
Wouldn't life still be important enough, not to be seen as a
joke?
[quote author=Jella link=topic=826.msg8467#msg8467
date=1404706301]
If God is a God....an actual God....and then most of all, THE
God...then I have to believe it.
Besides, I have things all around me that confirm this. This
beautiful creation could stem from nothing but a Creator that is
purely positive...and purely beautiful...and purely love.
[/quote]
Sounds that you are blessed, what about the starving people in
not so blessed situations who see nothing but filth, pain,
misery, and death? Why do they not receive the same
confirmation? Why would the same Loving God even have created a
possibility for such conditions?
[quote author=Jella link=topic=826.msg8467#msg8467
date=1404706301]
I also see that He does not manipulate...and because people that
say they love and obey, but have never had an opportunity to do
anything else but 'love' and 'obey' (as in Eden) He knows it is
not from the heart...so He opened the door wide open for our
free will to activate...so we could make real choices...which
can lead to real love and obedience...even tho it was a risk
because He knew that the bad would enter this world as well...
[/quote]
In "religion" the ultimate goal is perfection. God created out
of Love as well as allowed bad things possible in order to test
his creation? He did this in order that he would be able to
decipher "real" Love (perfection) from "unreal" Love? Is this to
say that God can be fooled? Seems it would have been a lot less
misery if he would have only created that what was perfect, to
reach a point of perfection. Why allow bad in order to test what
he created perfect? He created it, doesn't he know what he
created?
Just seems a strange way to create out of Love in order to Love
and receive Love, all coming forth from perfection, yet allowing
bad. The one bad seems to ruin the who bunch and we then lose
the perfection. Nothing is perfect when bad is allowed
[/quote][quote author=James link=topic=826.msg8468#msg8468
date=1404724138]
God just is.......
John 4 24 God is a spirit
I Chro 10.13 God is faithful
1 Tim 4 4 God is Good
2 Chro 1 18 God is true
1John 4 16 God is love
1 John 1 5 God is light
Heb 12 29 God is a consuming fire
Zech 8 23God is with you
I guess there are more, but these came to mind. The God that is
all this is one with us, Glory!!
[/quote]
Hi James, This reminded me of Sunday school when we would sing
the song,
Jesus loves me this I know, for the bible tells me so...
So basically what your saying is all your faith derives from the
book that is called "The Holy Bible" Therefor if the bible says
it, it is undeniable truth? If so does that hold true, cover to
cover, or do we have to choose from within the book what is
absolute truth for oneself?
#Post#: 8475--------------------------------------------------
Re: Love
By: Leaf Date: July 7, 2014, 9:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Quote by George:
[quote]Why does God have to Love? If you believe that he isn't
bound by any law and chooses to Love, then why believe that he
indeed Loves all?[/quote]
Hi George,
If God did not love all, then that would mean that there is
something of Himself that He does not love. Yes, God is
everything... all that exists. Perhaps you would ask me how I
could know that. Of course I could quote you scripture to
support what I have said, but I have the impression that that
would be found unsatisfactory for you.
I've have had experiences... one of which revealed to my eyes
what all of creation looks like, and that is light. Everything
is made of light... all vibrating at different speeds. All so
very beautiful... exquisite beauty.... the joy I had then, and
the joy I have now in remembrance, also exquisite. Ah, but I
digress... I find myself asking: What is there not to love about
Himself?
True, He does have parts of Himself that does not yet know they
are part of Him, but that will be remedied.
Oh, and not to answer for Kerry, but no where in the bible is it
stated that God created/made, or formed hell. Man himself
created and creates it.
#Post#: 8476--------------------------------------------------
Re: Love
By: Kerry Date: July 7, 2014, 10:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=826.msg8474#msg8474
date=1404778137]
Hi Kerry, I think we agree that the opposite of Love is not
hate?[/quote]Hi George,
If not hate, then what? At any rate, the question you need to
ask is what God's motive would be in creating things. When
people talk about God being displeased or angry, can that be
right? If it is, then things aren't working out right for Him
unless He created things in order to be displeased or angry.
[quote] If I am correct, then why ask if he created something to
hate?[/quote]I don't know you are right.
[quote]What If God is first cause, "Creator" in that he was the
beginning, What does that have to do with Love?[/quote]What
would you want if you were the only aware being that existed?
Or raise that a notch and ask yourself what would you want if
you were the only being in existence? Nothing existed other
than you -- and you were aware of existing alone with
nothingness all around you.
[quote]First cause "God" had no other option but to be what it
is, true? Otherwise, then there would be no here and now.
[/quote]"The Awareness" is. There is nothing else. The Hindus
put it this way, that every so many billions of years Brahma
goes to sleep and dreams, and the universe is the result.
[quote]Why does the question of laws displeasing him or breaking
them arise?[/quote]
If you created other beings in order to have things happen, you
have other beings to play games with, but you also need a game
board with rules. I use the word "game" in a neutral way, not
a negative way. The psychology of games is inherent in us --
it's knowable to us.
Something is fun only if we know the rules and limits and then
"win" by staying within the rules. "True freedom" exists
among the obstacles, accepting them and winning anyway.
Imagine if you could play checkers with someone else and he had
to obey the rules but you didn't. You could move illegally,
take his checkers illegally and move without waiting your turn.
It wouldn't be a real game. It wouldn't be fun.
Then imagine trying to play checkers with someone who doesn't
know what the rules are. You can win every time. That is also
not fun. So I say God wants us to learn the rules so we can
play intelligently and make things happen. It brings Him
pleasure.
[quote]What laws were required to be first cause? If first
cause or creator was required to only act out of Love, by who?
Not even the bible tells us that God creator was required to
create out of Love.[/quote]
The Bible is silent on many things. Part of the fun for us is
figuring things out.
God was not required to do anything before creating; but once He
made up a set of rules, then that's what the rules were. To
think He would change the rules later or want to break them
Himself would be to think He messed up when making the rules.
Also if we choose to think God breaks His own rules, we might
as well give up trying to understand Him. He would be acting
randomly, irrationally -- first making rules and then later
deciding He didn't like them.
If you believe God wants to be understood by people, then you
must believe He does not behave randomly. He would not break
His own rules. We can't figure others out if they behave
capriciously.
[quote]What about when he created hell? Seems that story could
be taken as he was creating out of anger, could it not?[/quote]I
would say He didn't create hell. He allowed us to do it. You
could say He did it since His rules allow for it; but it was not
His choice.
If people chose hate or fear or other things over love and
wanted to express them, then hell is a great place for them.
Let them do as they like but arrange the universe so they aren't
interfering with other people. The world we find ourselves in
is like a sorting bin. This level is fairly well balanced
between good and evil. At this level, we can exercise choice in
a way that is more difficult at other levels.
It is not God moving us so much as His laws doing it. We
really do things to ourselves. If we crave antisocial things,
we are moving towards hell by actively pursuing it, by wanting
it to exist, by helping to create it. God allows this. Love
permits others freedom. Love cannot be forced. So if someone
wants to go to hell, he is allowed. It's temporary although
the truly stubborn cases can be there for thousands of years
maybe longer.
[quote]I know you say we should see Love in everything read
within the bible so we say to ourselves God created hell out of
Love in order to contain the "devil" Yet we read he first allows
the "devil" to roam the earth and travel to and fro from heaven
to earth.[/quote]It is impossible to separate "the devil" from
"man." In a way, we are the devil.
[quote]Its not until after God is finish using the "devil" to
play devils advocate and try and trick Gods creation over to the
dark side. Once all of creation has risen above the temptation,
then God will bound the "devil" to hell where it will be
destroyed. So God will destroy that what he created out of Love?
Because that will be the Loving thing to do at that time, after
all have risen above his temptation and there is no one else for
him to seek to destroy, the Loving thing is to destroy the
"devil" and all his followers for eternity?[/quote]What we are
apt to call the devil (and the word "Satan" can have several
meanings) is often our own spiritual selves that accuse us. We
are godlike beings that crave perfection; and the spiritual part
of us that craves perfection can become angry with our lower
aspects of being.
The "godlike part" of us can fall if it chooses to hate. In
that way, God can err -- since our own spiritual nature is
really part of God. The "angel" that Jacob wrestled with was
Esau's angel. I'd say that angel was not a perfect or loving
angel when it met Jacob -- but Jacob "converted" it. Jacob's
unfallen godlike part defeated Esau's fallen godlike part. But
I don't mean "defeat" in a negative way. I mean it in a
loving way. Love prevailed over hate; and Jacob's Guardian
Angel then "replaced" Esau's Guardian Angel as the proper
authority over Esau and his descendants -- the Edomites.
That struggle still continues, still is one of the major sources
of conflict on planet earth. The Edomites remain "sinful" in
both body and soul. They are still not obedient to the
Guardian Angel which Jacob set over them by replacing Esau.
When they are won over by love, then Esau's Guardian Angel will
be restored to them. It seems to me that Esau's Guardian Angel
may still be angry and not entirely reconciled with God; but I
don't know.
However you look at things, you should be able to see that love
binds things and people together. Things and people that are
united are stronger than things and people who try to act
independently. In the end then, love must always win. The
problems we see are the bumps on the road.
I don't know if you're following the news from Syria and Iraq.
There we see violent and angry men seemingly united to defeat a
"common enemy." They are united only by their wish to
overthrow the governments that exist now. They may win, at
least temporarily; but if the government of Syria falls, then
the rebels would start fighting among themselves. That's
because their motive is to gain power. You can predict (fairly
accurately) what they will do by seeing what their motive is.
It's like three people robbing a bank. If they get $100,000,
someone will be tempted to betray the others so they can have
it all. That's who they are. They are not motivated by love or
unity. They can be motivated by fear though.
I believe evil contains the seeds of its own destruction within
it. Love binds together. Without love, things tend to fall
apart and disintegrate. What is death except the inability of
being able to keep your body parts together working the way they
should? We're made out of dirt; but there is something in the
life principle that arranges the atoms of dirt together in an
intelligent way. The human body has 100 trillion cells. Some
people may not call it "love" that keeps them together, but I
would. It's love at a different level of existence.
My definition of love is the binding force that keeps two or
more things together. In order to continue existing, God must
be love.
#Post#: 8477--------------------------------------------------
Re: Love
By: Jella Date: July 7, 2014, 11:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi Jella, I ask, to who? to who would it mean that life is a
joke? Even if there was no God who Loves all, wouldn't life
still be worth living, and living by loving in every way?
Wouldn't life still be important enough, not to be seen as a
joke?
To me....as I thought the OP asked about what we
believed/thought. If you think you could contently live and love
knowing there was no God, then that is you.
Quote from: Jella on Today at 12:11:41 am
If God is a God....an actual God....and then most of all, THE
God...then I have to believe it.
Besides, I have things all around me that confirm this. This
beautiful creation could stem from nothing but a Creator that is
purely positive...and purely beautiful...and purely love.
Sounds that you are blessed, what about the starving people in
not so blessed situations who see nothing but filth, pain,
misery, and death? Why do they not receive the same
confirmation? Why would the same Loving God even have created a
possibility for such conditions?
----------------------------
Kerry...These questions you are asking me sound like things
that are bothering you specifically...therefore, I am not sure
if I will have a satisfactory answer to them for you.
'Blessed' you say?? Not sure what you truly mean. Do you
mean happy? Satisfied? Content? Without going into my
life...because it would be a list of hurts and failings...I
would say 'not'. In fact I am not sure when I last felt that I
could truly call myself 'happy'...well, yes...about 6 weeks ago,
for about a week or so. Then before that? Can't remember at all.
--------------------------------------
Quote from: Jella on Today at 12:11:41 am
I also see that He does not manipulate...and because people that
say they love and obey, but have never had an opportunity to do
anything else but 'love' and 'obey' (as in Eden) He knows it is
not from the heart...so He opened the door wide open for our
free will to activate...so we could make real choices...which
can lead to real love and obedience...even tho it was a risk
because He knew that the bad would enter this world as well...
In "religion" the ultimate goal is perfection. God created out
of Love as well as allowed bad things possible in order to test
his creation? He did this in order that he would be able to
decipher "real" Love (perfection) from "unreal" Love? Is this to
say that God can be fooled? Seems it would have been a lot less
misery if he would have only created that what was perfect, to
reach a point of perfection. Why allow bad in order to test what
he created perfect? He created it, doesn't he know what he
created?
Just seems a strange way to create out of Love in order to Love
and receive Love, all coming forth from perfection, yet allowing
bad. The one bad seems to ruin the who bunch and we then lose
the perfection. Nothing is perfect when bad is allowed.
------------------------------------
1 Cor. 13 Love is patient, love is kind...it doesn't boast and
keeps no record of how many times it's been wronged. It rejoices
with the truth, it protects...love never fails.
"Perfection and Love are the same? I think not...not at all in
fact. Perfect is something that is without blemish inside and
out...and never breaks or dies. In appearance and behavior it is
without fault. The closest thing I can think of like this is a
new & shiny indestructible robot. ("Stepford Wife"?) It always
does what it's told and in fact never has to be told a 2nd
time...because it was built with excellent hearing and built for
obedience to it's Master. It will exhibit the actions of "love"
that has been instilled in it...which is not real love, as real
love, for one, is voluntary. I would not feel loved, or be
benefitted by really being loved...by something/someone that was
only 'loving' me 'mechanically'.
If you made some cookies and wrapped them up so beautifully,
then came over and gave them to me...and I knew you did it
because you cared about me and wanted to remind me that you
cared, and because you knew by experience how it is to have the
need to feel cared about. I would benefit from that. --- But
lets say you were the perfect one, and I wasn't...so you made
the cookies and brought them over to me all wrapped up very
nicely....but you did it because that is what perfection does.
But since you were perfect and I wasn't, then what could I do
for you? You would have no breaks, sorrows, and very few needs,
so my efforts to care for you in return...which is what
contributes to the formation of a true, intelligent, feeling,
back and forth relationship...would be of little value.<=
Perfect people would have much less need for one another.
---------------------------------
Similar to what you said here - "Something is fun only if we
know the rules and limits and then "win" by staying within the
rules. "True freedom" exists among the obstacles, accepting
them and winning anyway.
Imagine if you could play checkers with someone else and he had
to obey the rules but you didn't. You could move illegally,
take his checkers illegally and move without waiting your turn.
It wouldn't be a real game. It wouldn't be fun.
Then imagine trying to play checkers with someone who doesn't
know what the rules are. You can win every time. That is also
not fun. So I say God wants us to learn the rules so we can
play intelligently and make things happen. It brings Him
pleasure."
--------------------------------
I believe God is primarily a relational being. He didn't create
us to be His toys, or His subjects to order around...but beings
that were in His image so He and they would have the commonality
so they could form a relationship. I believe this is why He is
not so far removed from us...and gets pleasure from watching us
use the tools (love, creativity, intelligence, and etc.) He
gave us for the good of His creation, and to become more and
more like Him.
So, anyway, in a perfect society there would be no need for
patience or long-suffering...in fact Mrs. Stepford would expect
the same perfection from the other robots...and she would get
it! The interaction between them would be without obstacle...as
everyone's intellect/ideas would not clash...so, patience would
not even be in their vocabulary.
How about kindness? What would be the need for it? There is no
pain or lull in activity. Kindness? We are kind to one another
because we have need for it. We need kindness when we lack
strength to carry on or when we have lost hope or stumble and
fall...on a overwhelming day one kind act can save the whole
day! Someone who is perfect, who never gets tired or never fails
- what is kindness to them? -- I've gotten a glimpse of this by
being kind to a person who thinks they're perfect...and they
look at kindness as a weakness or they just act as tho they
deserve it.
Love protects. In a perfect society...protect from what? It
doesn't boast or keep record of wrong. No need for boasting
anyway...cause everyone is pretty much the same. Even in the
differences...varying skills...everyone does them perfectly.
Then even doing the opposite and celebrating people's skillful
achievements....there would still be no need, because then there
would have to be a party given to everyone...since everyone is
perfect in their skill. Rejoices with the truth? Why? - when
there is never untruth.
Now these were some of the actions of love...but how about
feelings of love? Sympathy/Empathy. What would be the need among
perfect people who never hurt or break or die? I understand and
show empathy because of it being shown to me by others who have
experienced pain and then the need for empathy themselves. So,
in a perfect society, empathy would not exist. Compassion?
Caring? Same...no one to have compassion on because no one needs
it, cause everyone is perfectly healthy - with no needs that
wouldn't be met in a perfect society. The imperfection of
humanness draws and unites people together...because we need the
kindness and compassion of others. And because of the nature of
Godly love...love being a verb...it must be given out as well.
Perfect beings don't have that need.
How about the feelings of romantic/sexual love? In a perfect
society, this is the only kind of 'love' I could see
possible...because it can be merely an attraction that would
lead to propagation.
So, as I see it....in my still growing understanding...God
created us to have a relationship with him and with one another.
But for that to happen, it has to be voluntary to be true.
I do not believe that rules, to God, are more important then
people. God is not looking for perfect...at least our view of
it. Having a real, back and forth, love relationship with us is
God's foremost desire. So, He had to open the door to make it
completely voluntary...which ever way it would go.
#Post#: 8487--------------------------------------------------
Re: Love
By: Kerry Date: July 9, 2014, 7:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Back to Genesis. Why, if loving God is the first and most
important commandment, did God tell Adam to cleave to Eve?
Well, Genesis doesn't say God told Adam that; but Adam says,
"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and
shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."
I say it would have been impossible, completely impossible, for
Adam to love God at that point. He had to learn first how to
"love himself." Since love requires two parties, Adam was
divided into two parts; but let's back up a bit.
I also ask if God is saying something about Himself when He
looked at Adam and said, "It is not good that the man should be
alone; I will make him an help meet for him." Doesn't this
suggest that God felt lonesome Himself?
The next step was to make the animals. Is this not a mystery
since before this we were told God made the animals before the
man? Yet so the story goes in chapter two. None of the
animals "made out of the ground" were found suitable. Why?
They possessed souls but they were not "living souls" the way
Adam was after God breathed into him.
Now think of it. Can you love inanimate objects? A bit
perhaps. But they can love you back, not really; and they can't
do much to get you to admire them, and they can't amuse or
astonish you. They just sit where they're put. You needn't
care about them for the most part unless it's something like
iron that could rust, etc.
You can care more about plants. They will grow too. Some of
the bloom. But they aren't very intelligent and I doubt they
can love you back very much ever. You can care more about
animals. The rule is: The more superior a creature is, the
more you can love it. And another rule is life has potential
-- so it's worth your while to love another living creature not
for what it is now but for what it may become in the future if
you love and nurture it.
So there you have the reason I say God's motive was to have
beings to love. The greater potential He could give humans to
achieve greatness, the better. The greater they became, the
better. The more superior they became, all the better! For
then God would have been right to create man and right to give
him the potential for greatness and right to love man even
before he matured enough even to love anyone else. Man is not
a worthless creature. To say that would be to defame God, man's
creator. The more man becomes like God, the more that person
proves to the whole universe God was right to make him and right
to love him too all along.
The angels look at the saints when they are perfected and say,
"What hath God wrought?" It delights the angels to see the
perfected saints since they did not know themselves what they
labored for until each saint is revealed just as a flower is
revealed when it blossoms.
So I believe.
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