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#Post#: 6601--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can three be one
By: George Date: January 6, 2014, 4:52 pm
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[quote author=Saul link=topic=666.msg6596#msg6596
date=1389027019]
"Far fetched" How so? John 10:30
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
30 I and my Father are one.
[/quote]
Here is the issue with using this scripture to say that Jesus is
God, or that Jesus claims to be God, This verse is taken out of
context by everyone who uses it to say that Jesus claimed to be
God. In order to get the true meaning of Jesus statement I and
my father are one, we must read it in its full context.
John 10:24-30
King James Version (KJV)
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How
long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us
plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the
works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said
unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never
perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no
man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
Let me begin by saying right off bat we see that the scripture
in question is the end of a complete statement, where as so many
try to take it as a complete statement in itself. We have the
Jews approaching Jesus, and these Jews doubt him, they are not
believers. They begin to question him
If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
And Jesus answers he says I have told you; but ye believe not.
Then he gives reason why they believe not, he says they are not
of his sheep. His sheep hear his voice and they know him, they
believe, and Jesus knows his sheep, he knows who believes and
they follow him. Jesus goes on to say and I give them eternal
life and they shall not perish. Now let me take a second to
sidestep here, notice he is claiming to give them eternal life
prior to the supposed crucifixion, he doesn't say and I "will"
give them eternal life, he is speaking in the present tense and
I give them. They already received it just through believing.
Now back to my understanding of the scripture, Jesus goes on to
say neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. Meaning
once they believe, no man can come in and change there belief
and make them to doubt. How is it that no man can pluck them out
of his hand? Well Jesus tells them, his Father gave them to him,
it is Gods will that these people believe, it wasn't anything
Jesus did of his own will, Jesus says of my own free will I can
do nothing. So he is assuring that it is Gods will that these
people believe and for that reason no one can pluck them out of
his hand. His Father is greater than all, and no man can pluck
them out of his Fathers hand. Now we read "Me and my Father are
one". They are one in purpose, not one in the same being.
Nowhere is Jesus making claim to be God, he is speaking about
the purpose that he was sent for which is salvation, and in that
purpose he and his Father are one. God wants salvation for all
his children, it is not the will of the Father that one of these
little ones shall perish. Jesus purpose is to bring salvation to
Gods children, and once they believe they will not be lost
again, therefor they are One in Purpose.
#Post#: 6602--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can three be one
By: Saul Date: January 6, 2014, 4:53 pm
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[quote]1)So you don't believe that Father, Son and the HS make
one God?
2)do you believe that JW is Christians?
3)Do you believe without believe in the trinity you can be
saved?
blessings.[/quote]
I've alread answered 2 of the questions. So actually read my
post. 2) It isn't for me to decide, whether any denomination or
faith is Christian or not. I have to answer to God for my
beliefs and my beliefs alone and am quite comfortable with my
beliefs, I will state my beliefs, but it is up to the individual
to choose their own beliefs.
#Post#: 6604--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can three be one
By: Saul Date: January 6, 2014, 5:31 pm
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[quote]Well here is my stance on it, First and for most, when
you say His "word" I am already somewhat confused[/quote]
Are you referring to the scripture John 1:1-5 or something else?
As far as the rest, of The Bible, yes there are some errors, due
to man. That is why it is to be used as a guide, in conjunction
with His Holy Spirit. But The Bible as whole I can believe,
otherwise I wouldn't bother studying it.
[quote]What I don't believe is that God became mortal, nor do I
believe that God requires any type of human sacrifice. I don't
believe that there is a such thing as 100% God 100% man, that is
similar to oil and water, they could never be the same nor can
they be combined to serve any purpose. God is God and man is
man. Could God manifest himself in any form? Possibly but it
would be simply a manifestation, Not becoming a man, by taking
on the form of a baby, being born of a women, and ultimately
becoming mortal. We know according to the scripture that Jesus
was 100% man, he hungered, he thirst, he wept, he bled. God is
completely self sufficient He needs nothing, He provides all;
but needs nothing. If I am to believe in God, that is what I
believe. He is greater than all. All men are equal.[/quote]
I can't respond to this as, we must all decide what we believe.
I've personally seen to much to not believe.
#Post#: 6605--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can three be one
By: Saul Date: January 6, 2014, 5:37 pm
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[quote] They are one in purpose, not one in the same being.
Nowhere is Jesus making claim to be God, he is speaking about
the purpose that he was sent for which is salvation, and in that
purpose he and his Father are one.[/quote]
I cannot dispute this.
#Post#: 6606--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can three be one
By: meshak Date: January 6, 2014, 6:19 pm
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Soul,
You said Jesus is God, and the Father is God and the Holy Spirit
is God.
But the Bible says there is only one God. So what is your
position? You say you are not a Trinitarian.
blessings.
#Post#: 6609--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can three be one
By: Saul Date: January 7, 2014, 7:08 am
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I've explained my position ad nauseum. There is one God two
personalities. The Father and Son, God is a Spirit, therefore
The Holy Spirit is Jesus' Spirit.
[quote]You say you are not a Trinitarian.[/quote]
That is right and who are you to judge me? Even by that
statement you judge. I do not consider myself as a trinitarian,
so that should be enough said. Now if you were to simply be
asking to understand my viewpoint, that would be fine. But you
don't, you are asking to sit in judgement, so I ask, who are you
to sit in judgement of me? You're doing the very thing you say
trinitarians have done to you.
#Post#: 6612--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can three be one
By: meshak Date: January 7, 2014, 8:15 am
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[quote author=Saul link=topic=666.msg6609#msg6609
date=1389100122]
That is right and who are you to judge me? [/quote]
I am just following what you said.
Ok, you don't want to be included in the trin organizations. It
is good that you don't judge non-trins are non-believers.
My comments is not personal attack. It is overall statement.
Why are you so intimidated by my comments? just so strange, it
seems that you are ashamed of your faith.
I am non-trin and I am not ashamed to say so. If you call me
judgmental, it is your prerogative.
I am talking about what trinity doctrine and what trin
organizations have been doing to Jesus' followers who don't
agree with their doctrines.
Jesus says we know them by their fruit. Trin organizations have
been approving of violent practice. That is their fruit. This
is my point.
Christianity is all about following or obeying Jesus teachings
and practice. It is not about our knowledge. We should be using
our knowledge to do godly things.
We should not be practicing any violent things because that
misrepresent Jesus to the world.
Jesus commands us to "go therefore, make disciples of all
nations... teaching them to OBEY ALL I have commanded you"
blessings.
#Post#: 6613--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can three be one
By: Saul Date: January 7, 2014, 2:45 pm
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[quote]My comments is not personal attack. [/quote]
Not personal? Look how you started it off.[quote]But you are
Trinitarian and with them in the spirit.
You are sill disregarding Jesus' word of "we know them by their
fruit".[/quote][quote]This is organizational sin,
friend.[/quote]
How is that not personal? Especially when I told you from the
beginning, I am not trin.
#Post#: 6614--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can three be one
By: meshak Date: January 7, 2014, 4:57 pm
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[quote author=Saul link=topic=666.msg6613#msg6613
date=1389127523]
How is that not personal? Especially when I told you from the
beginning, I am not trin.
[/quote]
Organizational sin is not personal. It is organizational thing.
blessings.
#Post#: 6615--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can three be one
By: Giuliano Date: January 7, 2014, 10:02 pm
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Is this thread about the Trinity? It seems to be about other
things. Please review the rules and avoid making personal
comments; and if someone makes a personal comment, notify the
moderators.
Please get the thread back on track discussing the Trinity.
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