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#Post#: 6443--------------------------------------------------
Power of prayer
DIR By: George
Date: December 15, 2013, 12:13 pm
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How can one measure the power in prayer? I would argue that the
only possible way to see a power in prayer is if an
impossibility became possible. For example someone who was born
blind can now see without any medical assistance, simply by
means of a single person or group of people fervent prayer. Even
this alone could be argued to be a coincidence. Unless this
single person or group of people had success in several prayers
of that nature being answered then one could argue that there is
a power in prayer. If this person or group of people prayed for
twenty different issues and one of the twenty came to be, by
sheer numbers this would not appear to be a power in prayer.
I am curious how many have witness the power in prayer,
experienced something that could not be explained through any
other means other than an act of God, and seen this happen
continually. Not just one or two unexplained acts throughout
several years of fervent prayer. Ive heard people say things
along the lines of I landed a job and God has answered my
prayer, or I was feeling terrible and today I woke up feeling
great, God has answered my prayer. I think this is misleading if
actually one was searching for a job and filling out
applications and landed a job, or someone has a cold and is
drinking therma flu for a week and finally feels better. One
would only expect that if one is in search for a job they will
eventually find one, or if one is taking medication for an
illness eventually they would feel better. Has anyone ever
witness aids patience successfully being healed through prayer?
Or children with down syndrome becoming normal through prayer?
#Post#: 6444--------------------------------------------------
Re: Power of prayer
DIR By: Kerry
Date: December 15, 2013, 5:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: George M. C. Jr. link ---
>
> How can one measure the power in prayer?
--- End Quote ---
Studying cause and effect is tricky business. Do you know that
when blacktop pavement gets soft, the number of deaths goes up?
--- Quote ---
> I would argue that the only possible way to see a power in
prayer is if an impossibility became possible. For example
someone who was born blind can now see without any medical
assistance, simply by means of a single person or group of
people fervent prayer. Even this alone could be argued to be a
coincidence. Unless this single person or group of people had
success in several prayers of that nature being answered then
one could argue that there is a power in prayer. If this person
or group of people prayed for twenty different issues and one of
the twenty came to be, by sheer numbers this would not appear to
be a power in prayer.
--- End Quote ---
How about a child born deaf being healed? I know about that
case since there is a chapel to St. Katherine Drexel two blocks
from where I live.
--- Quote ---
> I am curious how many have witness the power in prayer,
experienced something that could not be explained through any
other means other than an act of God, and seen this happen
continually.
--- End Quote ---
Oh continually? You want a life of miracle after miracle
without ceasing? I would find that hard to live with myself.
I can tell you that when I was doubting things, I was still
praying for things; and an angel told me a certain prayer would
be answered in six months. I wrote the date down. When it
came true, I got out my book to check the date. It was a day or
two before the six months would have been up.
Would you believe I've conducted experiments with hurricanes?
Magnetism?
--- Quote ---
> Not just one or two unexplained acts throughout several years
of fervent prayer. Ive heard people say things along the lines
of I landed a job and God has answered my prayer, or I was
feeling terrible and today I woke up feeling great, God has
answered my prayer. I think this is misleading if actually one
was searching for a job and filling out applications and landed
a job, or someone has a cold and is drinking therma flu for a
week and finally feels better. One would only expect that if one
is in search for a job they will eventually find one, or if one
is taking medication for an illness eventually they would feel
better. Has anyone ever witness aids patience successfully being
healed through prayer? Or children with down syndrome becoming
normal through prayer?
--- End Quote ---
People are also more apt to remember the things that happen
right. If a psychic makes 100 predictions and one comes true,
people remember that one and think there's something to it.
That just happened as a matter of fact. Cindy Jacobs goes around
the world making all kinds of predictions. Most of them are
false. She made a comment about the Philiippines once and now
people are saying she accurately predicted the hurricane. Do
you think she actually predicted the hurricane? I don't.
HTML http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDAxt27YHN8
#Post#: 6446--------------------------------------------------
Re: Power of prayer
DIR By: coldwar
Date: December 16, 2013, 8:10 am
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I have little to no experience with "power of prayer". There was
a very recent incident (last week) with my wife's family about
to be completely blown to bits over how a close relative's will
should be handled; and I am of the mind that families ought not
be torn apart over a will when someone dies - no amount of money
is worth the strife in a family, yet this stuff happens all the
time. Anyway, I was praying fervently that it would all turn out
OK - that the will would be re-written fairly, that everyone
would agree with it, and that everyone would remain on good
terms. And that's exactly how it turned out. But can this be
"proven" to be an answer to my prayer? Of course not. But is it
possible that my prayers were answered? Certainly it is
possible. The important thing is, it gave a big boost to my
faith, and instead of just rolling over with the punches like
I'm prone to do, I'm now praying more about things. That's what
prayer is all about - not trying to "measure" its effectiveness,
but simply to provide people with "faith" - a child-like thing
that we would all be better off having than not.
#Post#: 6447--------------------------------------------------
Re: Power of prayer
DIR By: Kerry
Date: December 16, 2013, 4:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
^ Aleister Crowley, who used to like to terrify superstitious
Christians, once said the best answers to prayer are those which
look the most natural as if nothing supernatural happened. I
think I agree. The miraculous can draw attention, and attention
can draw opposition. The quieter some things are done, the
better.
#Post#: 6448--------------------------------------------------
Re: Power of prayer
DIR By: George
Date: December 16, 2013, 7:11 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Kerry link ---
>
> How about a child born deaf being healed? I know about that
case since there is a chapel to St. Katherine Drexel two blocks
from where I live.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes that's along the same lines.
--- Quote from: Kerry link ---
>
> Oh continually? You want a life of miracle after miracle
without ceasing? I would find that hard to live with myself.
>
--- End Quote ---
I'm not saying a life of continual miracles, rather a
consistency to receiving a positive answer to prayers. If there
was a higher percentage of success appose to it being a rarity.
--- Quote from: Kerry link ---
>
> Would you believe I've conducted experiments with hurricanes?
Magnetism?
>
--- End Quote ---
Weather is unpredictable, such as the saying "You change like
the wind" I can believe that you used a hurricane to conduct a
test or experiment; but without repeated success I would still
question if it was just a coincidence that the one time things
went the way you wanted. Unless a hurricane just completely
vanished off of the map, I am not sure how one would justify
prayer by the direction that a hurricane took. Most of the time
this can be explained by pressure from what I've seen.
--- Quote from: Kerry link ---
>
> People are also more apt to remember the things that happen
right. If a psychic makes 100 predictions and one comes true,
people remember that one and think there's something to it.
That just happened as a matter of fact. Cindy Jacobs goes around
the world making all kinds of predictions. Most of them are
false. She made a comment about the Philiippines once and now
people are saying she accurately predicted the hurricane. Do
you think she actually predicted the hurricane? I don't.
>
--- End Quote ---
Well this is my point, If one prays for one hundred things
within reason and one comes to be, is that actually a answer to
prayer or just the nature of life in general where in some
things will go our way and some things wont.
#Post#: 6449--------------------------------------------------
Re: Power of prayer
DIR By: George
Date: December 16, 2013, 7:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: coldwar link ---
>
> I have little to no experience with "power of prayer". There
was a very recent incident (last week) with my wife's family
about to be completely blown to bits over how a close relative's
will should be handled; and I am of the mind that families ought
not be torn apart over a will when someone dies - no amount of
money is worth the strife in a family, yet this stuff happens
all the time. Anyway, I was praying fervently that it would all
turn out OK - that the will would be re-written fairly, that
everyone would agree with it, and that everyone would remain on
good terms. And that's exactly how it turned out. But can this
be "proven" to be an answer to my prayer? Of course not. But is
it possible that my prayers were answered? Certainly it is
possible. The important thing is, it gave a big boost to my
faith, and instead of just rolling over with the punches like
I'm prone to do, I'm now praying more about things. That's what
prayer is all about - not trying to "measure" its effectiveness,
but simply to provide people with "faith" - a child-like thing
that we would all be better off having than not.
>
--- End Quote ---
From the outside looking in it would seem that the rare case
that things go according to the way one prays for them to go
would provide hope, hope that it is possible to receive a
positive answer to prayer. For me faith is not something
provided by a positive outcome. One would need faith in order to
create the action where in an outcome would derive. For example
I have faith that if I work for an employer I will receive my
paycheck, thus I get up every morning and go to work. If I went
to work without receiving compensation, receiving pay on a rare
occasion would not provide faith. I would most likely quit going
to work before that rare occasion ever manifested.
#Post#: 6450--------------------------------------------------
Re: Power of prayer
DIR By: Kerry
Date: December 16, 2013, 9:36 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: George M. C. Jr. link ---
>
> [quote author=Kerry link=topic=656.msg6444#msg6444
date=1387151782]
> Oh continually? You want a life of miracle after miracle
without ceasing? I would find that hard to live with myself.
--- End Quote ---
I'm not saying a life of continual miracles, rather a
consistency to receiving a positive answer to prayers. If there
was a higher percentage of success appose to it being a
rarity.[/quote]Have you considered the possibility that some
people ask for things they shouldn't? I was reading once
where this woman asked other people to pray that her daughter
got a job she was applying for. Should I pray for that?
She's praying that other people won't get it. Perhaps her
daughter is not the best person for that job.
--- Quote ---
> Weather is unpredictable, such as the saying "You change like
the wind" I can believe that you used a hurricane to conduct a
test or experiment; but without repeated success I would still
question if it was just a coincidence that the one time things
went the way you wanted. Unless a hurricane just completely
vanished off of the map, I am not sure how one would justify
prayer by the direction that a hurricane took. Most of the time
this can be explained by pressure from what I've seen.
--- End Quote ---
I got the weather maps off the coast of Africa. If a storm
started to show up, I'd pray then. One year I prayed to stop
all hurricanes. The next year I didn't pray. Leaf was there
and added some prayers; but she knows about this experiment.
If you wait until the news picks up the story, when the storm is
bigger -- more people believe in it. Their faith in it makes it
harder to dissolve.
--- Quote ---
> Well this is my point, If one prays for one hundred things
within reason and one comes to be, is that actually a answer to
prayer or just the nature of life in general where in some
things will go our way and some things wont.
--- End Quote ---
You may want to look at what made that one thing different from
the other ninety nine. There may be an explanation -- or it may
be a coincidence. My own advice is to ask Heaven for guidance
about what to pray for. Often there is a plan in Heaven; and if
you pray first for guidance and get told what to pray for, then
you can count on it happening when you pray for it. This verse
from Isaiah is ambiguous. It can be read either as a question
or as directions since it can be either the interrogative or
imperative. The KJV has it in the imperative, meaning you can
command God if you first ask of Him about His plans.
Isaiah 45:11 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and
his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and
concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
The NIV has it:
This is what the Lord says—
the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:
Concerning things to come,
do you question me about my children,
or give me orders about the work of my hands.
Francis Bacon invented the scientific method. I also consider
him a saint. He said:
Human knowledge and human power meet in one; for where the cause
is not known the effect cannot be produced. Nature to be
commanded must be obeyed; and that which in contemplation is as
the cause is in operation as the rule.
Most people move through life with their ideas which they never
question. They do not study cause and effect. How is it that
you can move your body around when you want to? Can you tell me
how that works?
#Post#: 6451--------------------------------------------------
Re: Power of prayer
DIR By: coldwar
Date: December 17, 2013, 7:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
1 Cor 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; but
the greatest of these is love.
Indeed George - faith and hope are two different things, and
different things to different people, and you're correct in what
you say. But "love" trumps them both, although all three still
remain.
#Post#: 6452--------------------------------------------------
Re: Power of prayer
DIR By: George
Date: December 17, 2013, 6:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: coldwar link ---
>
> 1 Cor 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three;
but the greatest of these is love.
>
> But "love" trumps them both, although all three still remain.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Absolutely!
#Post#: 6453--------------------------------------------------
Re: Power of prayer
DIR By: George
Date: December 17, 2013, 6:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Kerry link ---
>
> Have you considered the possibility that some people ask for
things they shouldn't?
>
--- End Quote ---
I have heard you speak on this before and I believe you make a
great point.
--- Quote from: Kerry link ---
>
> Most people move through life with their ideas which they
never question. They do not study cause and effect. How is
it that you can move your body around when you want to? Can you
tell me how that works?
>
--- End Quote ---
This question can be taken in different ways, I will try to
answer to the best of my ability; but I may not be understanding
exactly what your asking. From my understanding we are able to
move because of our brains. The brain sends electrical signals
through the body using our nervous system which causes muscles
to expand and contract, which then causes a movement. This is
how I understand the body to work. Someone who is completely
brain dead is not able to move there body. If you are referring
to moving in space, such as walking from the kitchen to the
bedroom, gravity plays a huge factor in this. If we were in
outer space where there is zero gravity, while we could still
move our body parts, we would not be able to move in space, such
as we can do here on earth. It gets much deeper if one ponders
on what causes the brain to function; but that is way beyond my
knowledge or understanding. I think it is said that the brain is
made up of mostly fat cells, and what causes that fat to have
some sort of intelligence appose to the fat on our stomach,
waist, or hips is beyond me.
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