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#Post#: 6016--------------------------------------------------
Thinking 'outside the box' outrageously.
By: Mike Date: September 17, 2013, 1:49 am
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The Filioque (early church dispute about who proceeds from whom
in the Godhead) can, methinks, be taken much further than just
‘the Godhead’.
In fact the entire mystery of ‘God and man’ can perhaps be
viewed in the context of what proceeds from what, what returns
to what, and for what purpose.
Added to which is the intrigue of the introduction of the word
‘us’ into the question of the Godhead in the first three
chapters of Genesis.
Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us,
to know good and evil.
But leaving that aside for the moment I am thinking about the
fact that man (non generically speaking I am sure) became a
living soul when God’s spirit proceeded into him when God
breathed it into him, and that same spirit returns back to God
upon clinical death of man’s body. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
And then we have the fact that ‘woman’ was not ‘created’ as
such, but effective was taken from (proceeded from) the side of
man for the purpose of being reunited with him (returning to)
when they twain shall become one flesh.
And then in ‘heaven’ we are told that there shall be neither
male nor female and that whilst we know not yet what we shall
be, we know that we shall be like Christ when we see him face to
face.
And since ‘man’ was first created in the likeness and image of
the ‘us’ Godhead, is not that in itself a ‘proceeding from’ and
a ‘returning to’.
So, is not the entire Divine objective one of expanding the
original ‘us’, through ‘man’ into one larger, and even more
complex, infinite ‘us’, via the intrigue of structuring in and
then cancelling out the element of ‘sin’?
For me this is an absolutely mind blowing, universal
reconciliation rumination.
#Post#: 6017--------------------------------------------------
Re: Thinking 'outside the box' outrageously.
By: George Date: September 17, 2013, 5:22 am
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[quote author=Mike link=topic=609.msg6016#msg6016
date=1379400594]
Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us,
to know good and evil.
[/quote]
In the Hebrew language there is plural of numbers and plural of
respect. the us in Genesis is a plural of respect. Similarly the
word translated God in Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God (Elohim)
created the heavens and the earth is also plural. El-God, Elo or
Allah-God, Elohim-Gods. By adding the "im" makes the word
plural; but rarely does anyone questions should it read In the
beginning Gods created the heavens and the earth. It is common
knowledge amongst scholars, that it is a plural of respect
within the original Hebrew.
#Post#: 6018--------------------------------------------------
Re: Thinking 'outside the box' outrageously.
By: Kerry Date: September 17, 2013, 5:49 am
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It's a question of who the "we" means in Genesis. I believe
the plants have guardian spirits as do the animals. I also
believe that the species of physical man was made with the other
animals -- and it too had its guardian spirit like the other
animals.
The "we" in Genesis then means God together with all the
guardian spirits of life -- and to do that they fashioned h'adam
not to be a mere human being but the spiritual man set over the
rest of the world. The dust he was made of was not earthly dust
but spiritual dust -- dust of the heavenly stars -- tiny as
mustard seeds.
After the fall, h'adam fell into flesh bodies of the human sort.
The human species had to be retrieved and repaired before the
animals and plants. But when mankind gets sorted out, then we
will see the peace among the animals Isaiah talked about.
Until then, the world groans as Paul put it.
Note too that the covenant made with Noah was also made with the
animals. The clean animals agreed at that time to help bear
the sins of mankind until things got sorted out. Thus they
were effective as sacrifices. Note too that David commanded the
animals, "Let everything that has breath praise the LORD."
This commandment by David was h'adam's purpose -- to guide all
life to God. Note too that Jesus said to preach the Gospel to
every living creature.
The repairing of plants and animals is also shown by Jesus as
"Son of Man" being compared to various plants and animals.
"Man" -- the spiritual creature -- is the bridge or connection
between God and matter. I would call it the Christ Spirit also.
#Post#: 6020--------------------------------------------------
Re: Thinking 'outside the box' outrageously.
By: Mike Date: September 17, 2013, 1:38 pm
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So George,
Are you suggesting that there was a plurality of 'Gods' involved
in creation.
If so did they have different agendas and effect different
creations.
Or did they all work in unison.
And then presumably they would all remain active today.
But again the question "with different agendas" or "in unison"?
And which 'faith' is it that acknowledges them all?
So Kelly are you suggesting that ultimately there will be plant,
animal, and insect live that will remain comparable with today's
species....whereas we will be incomparable.
Or do you reject the apostles' teaching regarding our
resurrection expectation and believe that we will return after
death in much the same format?
#Post#: 6021--------------------------------------------------
Re: Thinking 'outside the box' outrageously.
By: Kerry Date: September 17, 2013, 4:43 pm
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[quote author=Mike link=topic=609.msg6020#msg6020
date=1379443135]
So Kelly are you suggesting that ultimately there will be plant,
animal, and insect live that will remain comparable with today's
species....whereas we will be incomparable.[/quote]
I see the ultimate goal -- the "new earth" -- as containing
plants and animals in perfected states. They also will not die.
The carnvorous animals will no longer have the impulse to kill.
[quote]Or do you reject the apostles' teaching regarding our
resurrection expectation and believe that we will return after
death in much the same format?[/quote]Sorry, but can you
rephrase that?
However I can say this: Our awareness will not be trapped in
only in bodies that resembles the ones we have now. If you
wanted, you can experience what a butterfly is, or you can feel
what it is like to be a tree. Even the plants will rejoice and
praise God -- and you will be able to experience both sides of
things -- how they feel singing and how you feel hearing them
sing.
Yes, even the rocks will sing and praise God. There are even
"earth spirits" -- the Chinese Taoists know about them. Today
they govern hills and mountains and those don't move, the earth
spirits themselves also tend to be trapped in them. In the
future, the earth spirits too will be able to move. And if
you wanted a hill to move, it would move for you.
God spoke in Genesis. The Word went forth. The Word is still
reverberating. Back and forth. Vibrating. Shaking to bring
all into its proper form.
Isaiah 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from
heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and
maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the
sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it
shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that
which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent
it.
12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace:
the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into
singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead
of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to
the Lord for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be
cut off.
Clear up the problems of the human spirit fascinated and
obsessed with human bodies, and the rest of nature benefits.
The "trumps" in Revelation are also the "Word" -- the same as in
Genesis. At higher volume where people will hear them. They
can grow stronger or weaker. Now the trumps of God usually
sound quietly and work gently. But at times they can grow
louder and stronger.
Exodus 19:19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long,
and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him
by a voice.
The order is different in Genesis and Revelation though. Thus
in Revelation, the "first trumpet" has to do with plants --
grass and trees -- while in Genesis plants are connected with
Day Three.
Man is a vegetable without the higher forms of consciousness.
He can live in a coma -- as a vegetable. At any rate, the
force called "death" has its basis first in the plants. When
Adam was condemned to die, the same "curse" also fell on the
"earth" making thorns and thistles spring up. We cannot
disconnect our own immortality from this principle of
vegetation. Jesus mastered this "on the tree." The crown of
thorns given to him by men became a crown of life.
I had an inkling of how wonderful things will be. I had a
wonderful vision where I was walking in human form in the middle
of flowers; and the flowers were singing with me. I was
singing the high notes and they were singing the accompaniment.
And their minds were connected to mine -- no matter what note I
decided to sing, they could go along. I know it sounds
fantastic, but that was my dream; and since it agrees with
Isaiah a little, I think there was something to it.
But life is not one thing. Awareness can move like the wind
from thing to thing. One day -- awake on this -- I noticed how
some corn plants were moving. It was like chorus line moving.
The wind was moving them; and my awareness went out -- and I
could sense how the wind and the corn were enjoying each other.
Not all the corn plants were moving at the same time. The wind
would move some here and then some there.
Or study how a gentle wind moves leaves and branches on a tree.
Everything isn't bent at the same time. It's as if the wind is
caressing parts of the tree. You can go out and feel that.
You don't need to be stuck in one place in one human body. We
tend to get stuck by the "lusts of the flesh." And by being
willing to kill other animals to keep our bodies alive.
The unclean animals, after the Flood, took on part of mankind's
evil urges -- they continue to bear that burden. That's part of
the covenant between God, Noah and the animals. The clean
animals agreed also to bear some of man's burden by being
willing to bear sins in sacrifices. The animals patiently wait
as mankind works out his own salvation first -- but our nature
is tied into theirs. We have not exercised dominion wisely,
and they bear the burden to the extent that people have not
accepted the solution of Calvary which did away with the need
for the clean animals to be killed to bear our burdens for us.
The earthly lambs used in sacrifices were good only for "body
and soul." They could bear these lower burdens. But what about
man's raging urge at the higher levels where he goes about like
a lion seeking whoever or whatever he can devour? This part
of us "will reign" until "peace" comes being replaced by the
lamb nature. Judah will reign as the lion until Shiloh comes.
And the Lion is announced in Revelation but no lion shows up --
the Lamb shows up. Fixing things at this level is what is
needed; and then the need to sort things out at the lower levels
is lessened.
Calming the mind and heart at the higher levels is harder to do
if body and soul are troubled. Animal sacrifices worked to calm
and correct the lower levels of body and soul, making it easier
to work on the higher levels. But animal sacrifices couldn't
fix the upper levels.
#Post#: 6027--------------------------------------------------
Re: Thinking 'outside the box' outrageously.
By: George Date: September 18, 2013, 1:01 am
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I do not believe there are multiple creator Gods, I think there
could only be one creator God. I don't believe God manifests in
three persons. I believe that God is unlike anything we can
compare Him too. I believe He is the truest definition of
unique, none like unto Him in all of the universes.
#Post#: 6028--------------------------------------------------
Re: Thinking 'outside the box' outrageously.
By: Mike Date: September 18, 2013, 1:10 am
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[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=609.msg6027#msg6027
date=1379484087]
I believe that God is unlike anything we can compare Him to. I
believe He is the truest definition of unique, none like unto
Him in all of the universes.
[/quote]
Surely that understanding has to be every man's first step
towards God.
#Post#: 6030--------------------------------------------------
Re: Thinking 'outside the box' outrageously.
By: Mike Date: September 18, 2013, 1:27 am
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Kerry, sometimes I think that I might ruminate too much for my
own spiritual well being.
However you well outshine my ruminations and leave me too far
behind to comment on your last reply.
#Post#: 6032--------------------------------------------------
Re: Thinking 'outside the box' outrageously.
By: Kerry Date: September 18, 2013, 5:46 am
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[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=609.msg6027#msg6027
date=1379484087]
I do not believe there are multiple creator Gods, I think there
could only be one creator God. I don't believe God manifests in
three persons. I believe that God is unlike anything we can
compare Him too. I believe He is the truest definition of
unique, none like unto Him in all of the universes.
[/quote]Of course, there is only one Creator. It is said that
God consulted the guardian angels of the species out of humility
so they would not be jealous of h'adam. Still I would say
"God" is not three persons, not one person, not all persons.
God is What He is.
#Post#: 6033--------------------------------------------------
Re: Thinking 'outside the box' outrageously.
By: Mike Date: September 18, 2013, 9:38 am
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=609.msg6032#msg6032
date=1379501217]
[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=609.msg6027#msg6027
date=1379484087]
I do not believe there are multiple creator Gods, I think there
could only be one creator God. I don't believe God manifests in
three persons. I believe that God is unlike anything we can
compare Him too. I believe He is the truest definition of
unique, none like unto Him in all of the universes.
[/quote]Of course, there is only one Creator. It is said that
God consulted the guardian angels of the species out of humility
so they would not be jealous of h'adam. Still I would say
"God" is not three persons, not one person, not all persons.
God is What He is.
[/quote]
God without a 'box'?
I'm all for that.
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