DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Love God Only
HTML https://lovegodonly.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Philosophical Questions
*****************************************************
#Post#: 5811--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reincarnation
By: Kerry Date: August 4, 2013, 10:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mike link=topic=583.msg5809#msg5809
date=1375672025]
Not knowing the will and intent of God in greater detail than is
sufficient for me to "walk hand in hand with Him in simple
childlike trust and faith", I see no difficulty in the
'possibility' that God gave man (whose default destiny was
simply to perish) the option to alternatively stretch forth the
hand of faith and partake of the Tree of Eternal Life (subject
to eventual "saved yet so as through fire" purification).
I don't see that the provision of an alternative to man's
default destiny does anything other than comply with a will that
none should perish.
Is it suggested that God's "benevolence" dictates that he must
give eternal life to every soul regardless?
[/quote]If you know it is God's Will that no one should perish,
that should tell you a lot. Can we believe God was unable to
devise a world where this was impossible? Is He lacking either
in Power or Wisdom? If He like some human parents who have
offspring unsure about their fate? Unsure if they may have
birth defects which can never be corrected or unsure if there
will be resources to keep them alive? If we have faith in
God's perfection, that demands we believe in His Perfect Love;
and it requires us to believe too that His Perfect Wisdom made
it possible for Him to design a world where His Will could be
done; and we should not believe He lacked the Power to
accomplish this end.
The beauty of the design is that we can choose whatever we want,
and it still won't frustrate God's design. Sooner or later, we
will find ourselves choosing what is right after getting tired
of what is wrong.
While all Israel will be saved, still God allowed them to perish
in the wilderness when they said they wanted that. Indeed
people making mistakes and learning from them is part of God's
plan. Bad decisions aren't eternal. We can change our minds.
Though some of Israel were cut off the Tree of Life temporarily,
they will be grafted back on. Paul says that -- and using his
other statement that "not Israel is truly Israel" doesn't
explain that. People misapply that verse -- it means there were
impostors born into Israel. Improper marriages were one reason
this happened. They had infiltrated Israel during the time of
Jesus -- the sons of the serpent were posing as part of the true
Israel. The true Israel can fall away and be temporarily cut off
the Tree of Life but must in the end be grafted back on. This
will be accomplished by reincarnation.
And don't forget that the souls of all Israel were at Sinai.
Yes, the souls of those in bodies and the souls of those not in
bodies. Spirits not in bodies took the vow.
Deuteronomy 29:14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant
and this oath;
15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the
Lord our God, and also with him that is not here with us this
day:
#Post#: 5812--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reincarnation
By: Mike Date: August 4, 2013, 10:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
^ With God all things are possible.
And with that thought I stick with "walking hand in hand with
God in simple childlike trust and faith"
PS. The animated Star of David avatar puts my efforts in the
shade.
#Post#: 5813--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reincarnation
By: Kerry Date: August 4, 2013, 10:42 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Mike,
I had tried to use that avatar before but it wouldn't work since
it was bigger than 120 x 120. The software here will resize
some things but not animated gifs. So I found a site that
resized animated gifs and then put that on my computer and
uploaded it here.
#Post#: 5814--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reincarnation
By: Runner Date: August 5, 2013, 1:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
;D I didn't know it was 'star of David' I thought it was from
Star Wars!
Kerry, you have probably been asked this before.....how come
that when Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on The Mount
4,000 yrs later...they were still themselves...they weren't off
somewhere " being someone new"!!
George where are your two cents? :)
Blessings H
#Post#: 5816--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reincarnation
By: Kerry Date: August 5, 2013, 3:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Helen link=topic=583.msg5814#msg5814
date=1375725713]
;D I didn't know it was 'star of David' I thought it was from
Star Wars![/quote]LOL Mike is right.
[quote]Kerry, you have probably been asked this before.....how
come that when Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on The Mount
4,000 yrs later...they were still themselves...they weren't off
somewhere " being someone new"!! [/quote]Once someone achieves
spiritual perfection and attains the final form of his spiritual
body, he has no reason to incarnate again. He does more good
by staying in Heaven and pulling strings from there with his
followers to pull them up. Thus I believe Jesus did more good
after he ascended than he did while he was living in a body on
earth. For him to do those things, it was necessary that he
leave the earth and operate from Heaven through his disciples.
If his disciples loved him and wanted to be with him, they would
have go where he was because he wouldn't incarnating again to be
with them bodily. He could be with them spiritually using the
ties of love to communicate; and he might appear in visions at
times -- but to motivate them, it was necessary to go away.
You can think of it as a tree again too. Jesus' role was no
longer as a branch bearing fruit -- it was being the trunk of
the tree with twelve branches bearing fruit. Thus he said his
disciples would do greater works than he; and I think they did,
but the only reason they could was because he was acting as the
trunk of the tree.
An Ascended Being usually appears the way he looked (pretty
much) in his last lifetime; but I've seen Abraham as "different
people." If St. Francis of Assisi wanted to appear to a
Catholic, he would probably show up as Francis, I'd think, and
not as his last incarnation.
The dangers of incarnating outweigh the benefits for an Ascended
Being. He has nothing to gain, but he could incur karma. He
would also be producing less good in the kingdom. Elijah, as
the only Ascended Being to incarnate again, fell into despair
and confusion; but he accomplished what he was meant to -- and
the mission of Jesus was important enough for him to take that
risk.
#Post#: 5817--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reincarnation
By: Kerry Date: August 5, 2013, 3:54 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Does God punish the children for the sins of the parents?
Ezekiel says no.
Ezekiel 18:20 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son
shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the
father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the
righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked
shall be upon him.
However we have passages like this:
Numbers 14:18 The Lord is longsuffering, and of great mercy,
forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing
the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the
children unto the third and fourth generation.
I know of no explanation other than reincarnation that explains
it. Reincarnation says that the guilty are being punished by
being born back into situations where their iniquity visits
them. Thus a generation which fell into idolatry would rear
their children wrong; and those children would rear theirs
wrong. Eventually someone has to pay the piper when things
deteriorate too much.
Now consider why Abraham was told his offspring would be
strangers in a land that was not theirs.
Genesis 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy
seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall
serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge:
and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be
buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again:
for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
First let's look at who got born into Israel. Originally there
were 144,000. When they came out of Egypt, they numbered
600,000; and that was not all Israel since there were some souls
not in bodies. So we see the names of many Gentiles had been
added to the Book of Life by then. Not all Israel at that time
was of the original 144,000; but they all became officially part
of Israel by taking the vow at Sinai.
It was required that souls wishing to improve pay off the karma
of the Tower of Babel where the sin was wishing to make everyone
slaves to the common good. Individuality was frowned on and
uniformity the goal. This is contrary to the Will of God whose
plan included diversity for the seventy nations, and diversity
for the tribes within each nation and diversity for clans and
even individual families. The Tree of Life was to be grown with
several branches, etc. Or you could say that mankind as a whole
was to be like the individual human body which has different
members. At Babel, their goal was contrary to this; and they
sought to build the tower of bricks.
Bricks are uniform, all the same shape and size and easy to
build with. Stones found in their natural state are all
different shapes and sizes and require more thoughtfulness to
build with if you don't cut them. The Divine Wish that every man
find his proper place as an individual within mankind as a whole
is shown by the practice of using stones to build altars and not
bricks.
Isaiah 65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to
my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon
altars of brick;
So the people at Babel had failed to respect individuality; and
they also disobeyed the commandment to subdue the earth. They
wanted to stay all in one place and not bring salvation to the
whole earth.
Thus the people at Babel incurred karma. While they did begin
to move outwards, they still retained the impulse to want
uniformity, wanting everyone to be alike in society. Perhaps
without knowing it, they were asking to be treated as slaves at
Babel making bricks. Thus their karma was to be forced to make
bricks in Egypt, serving Pharaoh. God allows us to do as we
like; and if they wanted to be treated as slaves, it would be
allowed -- indeed it would even be necessary for them to
experience it until they got tired of it.
This inclination to adopt a slave mentality was with them after
they left Egypt. They were new at being independent and
thinking for themselves. They were soft. Slavery when someone
was feeding you was preferable to freedom if you had to take
care of yourself. Thus their thoughts turned to cucumbers and
leeks and they yearned to return to Egypt. Their misery was so
great, they even wished to die in the wilderness; and that was
allowed too, indeed you could say it was necessary.
However they did not return to Egypt. I believe love for their
children stopped them. Their days of slavery in Egypt had made
them weak and soft; but I think they knew it and didn't want
their children to grow up as they had. So no one seriously
tried to go back to Egypt; and the next generation, those under
the age of twenty, entered the Land of Promise.
#Post#: 5824--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reincarnation
By: George Date: August 7, 2013, 12:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Helen link=topic=583.msg5814#msg5814
date=1375725713]
George where are your two cents? :)
[/quote]
To be completely honest H. I don't have much to add to the
conversation, I am just reading and taking it in with an open
mind. My personal feelings/belief is that there is no eternal
hell, That is cruel and pointless torture, it would be a
vindictive action I could see an evil person doing. Not one with
unconditional Love. The concept of reincarnation would seem to
make a lot more sense than to think that one is punished for
eternity for a very finite life and even more finite mistakes.
[quote author=Mike link=topic=583.msg5807#msg5807
date=1375669902]
Then along came others like me (I hope that I am not alone) who
believe that Christ came to replace the Jewish tradition of
reliance upon words written in stone (or by ink on papyrus) with
a new reliance upon "Christ within by the power of the Holy
Spirit".
[/quote]
This would seem to me to completely contradict what Jesus is
quoted saying in the scripture, That he did not come to change
the law; but to fulfill it.
[quote author=Mike link=topic=583.msg5807#msg5807
date=1375669902]
[size=14pt]
Believing that God does not speak to us in this new way in order
to tell us 'the ins and outs of a maggot's anus' (metaphorically
speaking)
[/quote]
This appears to be a strange way of admitting ignorance.
[quote author=Mike link=topic=583.msg5807#msg5807
date=1375669902]
but tells us such as we need to know (and no more) in order to
walk hand in hand with him in simple childlike trust and faith,
we no longer "seek all those answers" which preoccupy those who
do not heed the parameters of knowledge within which God wishes
us to walk.
("Man is become as one of us to know.....henceforth shall he
till the ground from whence he came")
[/quote]
This appears to be a complete cop out, as to say one is like a
helpless child who is simply in the graces of the parents hands,
and therefor one does not seek to improve upon ones self, or
urge to give an honest effort to becoming as Christ. It is as if
one is content with living in ignorance believing ignorance is
innocence, dwelling in the concept that ignorance is bliss.
Which I believe to be false.
#Post#: 5829--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reincarnation
By: Mike Date: August 7, 2013, 2:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=583.msg5816#msg5816
date=1375736007]
[quote author=Helen link=topic=583.msg5814#msg5814
date=1375725713]
;D I didn't know it was 'star of David' I thought it was from
Star Wars![/quote]LOL Mike is right.
[/quote]
I'm not entirely sure about that,
The image is of two rotating pyramids, each having four points
making a total of eight, whereas the Star of David surely only
has six.
#Post#: 5834--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reincarnation
By: Runner Date: August 7, 2013, 7:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Mike..I was reading down Georges post..and thoughts were going
through my mind as I read.. and the very thought I was thinking
...George voiced!!
It does indeed sound much like a cop-out!! :)
[quote]Quote George..
This appears to be a complete cop out, as to say one is like a
helpless child who is simply in the graces of the parents hands,
and therefor one does not seek to improve upon ones self, or
urge to give an honest effort to becoming as Christ. It is as if
one is content with living in ignorance believing ignorance is
innocence, dwelling in the concept that ignorance is bliss.
Which I believe to be false. [/quote]
I think I can hear what George is saying..we cannot remove
ourself from all accountability by "just living in childlike
faith with Jesus.." That is a lot of what we are called to, but
not the whole nine yards. If we leave off the OT which
continually tells us to 'harken to His voice'...if we leave off
the believed Psalms which are full of- "hearing from God" If
we leave of the gospel writings that refer to pre cross...God
still tells us the 'hear His voice'!! No less than 8 times in
the book of Revelation. I don't believe we will get there with
just " me and Jesus". Although when we exit here..it is indeed
just down to us alone and Him, no one can do it for us.
We can't really believe that we will end up within the Bride
company if we are not in a deep intimate relationship with
Him...intimacy means communication..communicating requires
hearing...etc etc..
And I am speaking to myself...I have become somewhat 'dull in
hearing'...I am not well tuned. And for sure have not got
better with natural or spiritual age. A very sad admission!
#Post#: 5835--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reincarnation
By: Mike Date: August 8, 2013, 12:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Helen,
From the Bible it is always possible to find verses and passages
that support opposite points of view.
And just as there are passages in both Old and New Testaments
that appear to exhort the search for knowledge, so too are there
passages that point to its futility and transitory and passing
value.
From the first chapter of Ecclesiastes.
"I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem. And I gave my
heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things
that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to
the sons of man to be exercised therewith. And I gave my heart
to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that
this also is vexation of spirit.
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth
knowledge increaseth sorrow."
Right through the entire book up to the last verses of the last
chapter.
"My son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end;
and much study is a weariness of the flesh. Let us hear the
conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his
commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."
And from 1 Corinthians 13:8
"Love (especially pure 'childlike' love) never fails: but
whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be
tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall
vanish away."
I read all parts of the Bible, and many expositions by many
Christians, and have listened to many preachings and teachings
from many pulpits.
And all the time I do so with simple childlike trust and faith
that God will lead me ever closer to him in terms of such as I
need to know in order thus to walk.
Conversely George accepts nothing without proof.
You pays your money and you takes your choice. (as led by God's
Holy Spirit, of course)
I am not saying that one should eschew knowledge completely, but
in view of its transitory value I feel that it should be 'kept
subordinate' to what I consider to be more important (fearing
that many Christians reverse the priorities)
IMO my walk of faith is a deliberate (and scriptural) 'Cop-in'
as distinct from a 'cop-out'
*****************************************************
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page