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#Post#: 5478--------------------------------------------------
Not so pupular threads (1)
By: meshak Date: July 7, 2013, 5:22 am
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the sins involved around the military practice for pro-military
Christians.
1)First of all, you have to swear when you enlist, which God
has forbidden His people from doing. When you enlist, the
government owns you. Now you have two masters, Jesus and your
government. Jesus says you cannot have two masters.
Matthew 5:34 (New International Version)
34But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it
is God's throne;
2) Second, you may be killing Jesus' servants because His
followers are everywhere in the world, including your enemy's
countries.
Acts 9:5 "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied.
3)Jesus tells us to be salt and light of the world. You cannot
be salt and light of the world by joining to kill your enemy
like the rest of the world.
[quote]Matthew 5:13-15 (New International Version)
Salt and Light
13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its
saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good
for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.
14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be
hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a
bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to
everyone in the house.
4)His followers are not of this world. The military is politics
and of this world, not of Jesus.
John 15:19
If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As
it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out
of the world. That is why the world hates you.
5)Luke 6:27 (New International Version)
Love your enemies
27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to
those who hate you,
6)be perfect.
we cannot be perfect by joining this world to kill our enemy.
It is just too worldly. We cannot be perfect by being worldly
servants.
7) I just missed another one: Jesus says let the dead bury
their own dead meaning let them handle their own mess they
created. Jesus' followers should not waste their life for
violent witnessing.
#Post#: 5482--------------------------------------------------
Re: Not so pupular threads (1)
By: James Date: July 7, 2013, 7:03 am
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Right , you have highlighted the negative.
What is the answer to protecting a country?
Should Christians not fight and just leave it to the "unsaved "
to kill each other?
Is it at all possible that these military Christians have heard
by the spirit to join one of the armed forces, rather than just
reading the letter of the law, that's the law as you interpret
it in your opening post.
James
#Post#: 5488--------------------------------------------------
Re: Not so pupular threads (1)
By: meshak Date: July 7, 2013, 8:26 am
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James,
Christians have no business criticizing worldly matters. The
military is of this world. And Jesus' followers are not of this
world. That's why they have no right to interfere with worldly
affairs and criticizing them..
thank you
#Post#: 5497--------------------------------------------------
Re: Not so pupular threads (1)
By: Runner Date: July 7, 2013, 12:36 pm
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[quote author=meshak link=topic=557.msg5488#msg5488
date=1373203578]
James,
Christians have no business criticizing worldly matters. The
military is of this world. And Jesus' followers are not of this
world. That's why they have no right to interfere with worldly
affairs and criticizing them..
thank you
[/quote]
I cannot agree.
1 Corinthians 6:3
"Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things
that pertain to this life? "
The whole scripture is ( about servering two masters)
Luke 16:13
"No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the
one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and
despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.( money)
That said ..I am VERY THANKFUL that my uncles and family fought
in two major wars and kept us free.
AND, I am very thankful that David slew Goliath!!
Need I go on... ;D
Somebody has to "pay the price"
#Post#: 5506--------------------------------------------------
Re: Not so pupular threads (1)
By: meshak Date: July 7, 2013, 3:28 pm
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[quote author=Helen link=topic=557.msg5497#msg5497
date=1373218568][size=12pt]I cannot agree.
1 Corinthians 6:3
"Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things
that pertain to this life? "[/quote]
You are taking out of context. Whole context is:
Lawsuits Among Believers
6 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take
it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s
people?(A) 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will
judge the world?(B) And if you are to judge the world, are you
not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we
will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4
Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask
for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the
church? 5 I say this to shame you.(C) Is it possible that there
is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between
believers?(D) 6 But instead, one brother(E) takes another to
court—and this in front of unbelievers!(F)
You see, this is talking about between believers, not about
judging the world.
[quote]The whole scripture is ( about servering two masters)
Luke 16:13
"No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the
one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and
despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.( money)
That said ..I am VERY THANKFUL that my uncles and family fought
in two major wars and kept us free.
AND, I am very thankful that David slew Goliath!!
Need I go on... ;D
Somebody has to "pay the price"[/quote]
Well, then you are disagreeing with Jesus because He says you
should not have two masters. Christians in the military have
two masters, Jesus and the government.
#Post#: 5511--------------------------------------------------
Re: Not so pupular threads (1)
By: George Date: July 7, 2013, 5:23 pm
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[quote author=meshak link=topic=557.msg5506#msg5506
date=1373228932]
Well, then you are disagreeing with Jesus because He says you
should not have two masters. Christians in the military have
two masters, Jesus and the government.
[/quote]
Does your husband have a job? If so does he have a boss? If he
has a boss is the boss his master? Do you obey the law? Are the
law makers your master? Are your children in school or did they
attend school? Did they obey there teachers and principle? Were
the teachers and principle there masters? The argument that
Christians in the military serve two masters is a bit comical in
my opinion! I could say that about anyone who follows the rules
of any system in order to gain any type of self benefit.
Do you believe that all slaves are not "Christians" because the
had masters? And believe me not all slaves were forced to serve
there masters. There were some who loyally served there masters
not forced. So it can also be said about anyone who follows
rules, order, with little to gain even when it is against there
will.
Basically it can be said about everyone in the world including
yourself. I say you serve the master of law if you do the speed
limit and stop at red lights, pay your tax's, etc. etc.
#Post#: 5514--------------------------------------------------
Re: Not so pupular threads (1)
By: meshak Date: July 7, 2013, 6:06 pm
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[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=557.msg5511#msg5511
date=1373235781]
Does your husband have a job? If so does he have a boss? If he
has a boss is the boss his master? Do you obey the law? Are the
law makers your master? Are your children in school or did they
attend school? Did they obey there teachers and principle? Were
the teachers and principle there masters? The argument that
Christians in the military serve two masters is a bit comical in
my opinion! I could say that about anyone who follows the rules
of any system in order to gain any type of self benefit.[/quote]
My husband does not own me. He cannot order me to go to war but
enlisted people have to go to war if they are ordered. The
government owns them. You don't seem to know much about the
military how it works. My husband is retired service man, I
know how it operates.
[quote]Do you believe that all slaves are not "Christians"
because the had masters? And believe me not all slaves were
forced to serve there masters. There were some who loyally
served there masters not forced. So it can also be said about
anyone who follows rules, order, with little to gain even when
it is against there will.[/quote]
Christian slaves should not obey their master if they are
ordered to do something illegal or immoral. they maybe killed,
regardless...
[quote]Basically it can be said about everyone in the world
including yourself. I say you serve the master of law if you do
the speed limit and stop at red lights, pay your tax's, etc.
etc.
[/quote]
It is not immoral to obey those law.
#Post#: 5518--------------------------------------------------
Re: Not so pupular threads (1)
By: George Date: July 8, 2013, 10:12 am
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[quote author=meshak link=topic=557.msg5514#msg5514
date=1373238418]
My husband does not own me. He cannot order me to go to war but
enlisted people have to go to war if they are ordered. The
government owns them.
[/quote]
If you could please quote where I said anything about your
husband owning you I would appreciate that first. I am beginning
to wonder if you can fully comprehend what I type when you read
it? Something Kerry has spoke on a couple times; but not since
your arrival to the forum, so I am going to touch on it.
Do you know what Eve's first mistake was in the garden of Eden
according to the scripture? Her first mistake was, imagining God
said something that he never said, she took what God said and
interpreted it in her own imagination into her own words.
Basically she put words into the mouth of God.
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of
the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt
not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou
shalt surely die.
We read that the Lord God told Adam thou shalt not eat of the
tree of knowledge of good and evil.
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit
of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the
garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye
touch it, lest ye die.
Now we read when Eve is approached by the serpent, she tell the
serpent that God hath said Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall
ye touch it. Where does it say in the scripture that God told
Adam or Eve "Neither shall they touch it?" This imagination of
Eve that God said neither shall ye touch it made it that much
easier for the serpent to fool Eve. Now he doesn't have to get
her to eat the fruit to doubt God, rather if he could get her to
touch it, then she would doubt that God was telling them the
truth. So Eve touch's the fruit and everything is O.K. of course
because God never said they cant touch it; but because Eve
imagine that God said that, when she touched it she also
imagined that God was not being truthful, Thus the temptation to
eat the fruit was that much greater, and she fell into
temptation and ate of the fruit. Can you see how that worked? Do
you understand what is happening? Now in no way am I God or you
Eve but as you said yourself, All of the teaching refer to all
Christians.
You missed my point completely because somehow you imagined that
I asked if your husband owns you. I never uttered those words, I
didn't even come close to saying anything of that nature. Please
re-read my post.
[quote author=meshak link=topic=557.msg5514#msg5514
date=1373238418]
You don't seem to know much about the military how it works. My
husband is retired service man, I know how it operates.
[/quote]
Well lets see here, I was born into a military household, My dad
was in the navy where he served for thirteen years, He then
transferred to the coast guard and finished his last seven years
of military service, his final year of service he spent as a
recruiter for the coast guard. Then he retired. I lived in
military housing until I was fifteen years old. Not only did I
have my dad trying to convince me to join the military most all
of our friends were military, I have spoken with many recruiters
about military service. I know about being recruited then
enlisting for a minimum of four years, then re-enlisting if one
chooses to after there four year contract is up. I know all
about when someone decides to try and leave the military before
they have served there time that they agreed to serve, they call
it A walling and one will go to military jail for such actions.
I would say I have a fairly good understanding of the military
life and exactly how it works!
[quote author=meshak link=topic=557.msg5514#msg5514
date=1373238418]
Christian slaves should not obey their master if they are
ordered to do something illegal or immoral. they maybe killed,
regardless...
[/quote]
Again I said nothing about Christian slaves serving there
master! I asked a question about slaves being Christians. Refer
to the first part of this reply!
[quote author=meshak link=topic=557.msg5514#msg5514
date=1373238418]
It is not immoral to obey those law.
[/quote]
And once again I did not speak anywhere in my reply to you about
morals. My dad was a retired military man and never in his 20
year service did he serve in a single war, I know many other men
and women who never served a day of war or combat. Not that to
me it is relevant; but you seem to think that everyone who is in
the military kill people or fight in wars. Yes to join the
military one must sign a contract, and do whatever is asked of
them. If someone had true convictions that they shouldn't fight
in war they can not be forced to fight, They can A wall and
suffer the consequence for breaking there contract.
The fact of the matter is you are against war, and relate that
to being in the military, thus condemning the military. As I
said you missed my whole point, because you can't seem to read
the actual words that are written, it is as if you skim through
what is said to you then interpret it any way you want to try
and prove your point. again in my personal opinion you err
greatly by doing so, not only with the bible; but also with
people and what they say to you. I would ask again please read
what I said to you in the original reply and then you can reply
with comments that are related to what I said, maybe you can
answer the questions I asked, without you interpreting into your
own words.
#Post#: 5530--------------------------------------------------
Re: Not so pupular threads (1)
By: Runner Date: July 8, 2013, 3:31 pm
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George...I was going to answer the reply made to me here....but
I see you are doing a good job at it!
To me God shows how " we" ( in Israel) asked for it!!
He wanted to be their Master and King...but they demanded God to
give them a King like all the other nations. ( they didn't want
to be different)
Man now has what he asked for..and we are stuck with it!
We all have rulers and governments who dictate to us and give us
rules to live by.
We may say we are free but we are not. I can't keep a pig in my
back yard...we can say that we are not 'under them' but we are.
God and Jesus tells us to obey them!
As you mentioned..Taxes. "Render unto Caesar the things that are
Caesar's..."
Good post George, said better than I could.
1 Samuel 8
"...now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. 6 But
the thing displeased Samuel, when they said , Give us a king to
judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the
people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not
rejected thee, but they have rejected Me, that I should not
reign over them. .. 9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice:
howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner
of the king that shall reign over them.
10 And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people
that asked of him a king. 11 And he said , This will be the
manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your
sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be
his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots. 12 And he
will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over
fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his
harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of
his chariots. 13 And he will take your daughters to be
confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers . 14 And he
will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards,
even the best of them, and give them to his servants. 15 And he
will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and
give to his officers, and to his servants.
16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants,
and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to
his work. 17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall
be his servants. 18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of
your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not
hear you in that day. 19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey
the voice of Samuel; and they said , Nay; but we will have a
king over us;
...we have rulers and we have military.
The Lord may speak to me to go into the service and fight, even
kill for my country..and He may say to you.."I don't want you to
do so."
The great test is ...are we ALL willing to personally hear and
obey what God speak to "us" personally?
Do any of us Meshak really have the right to say- "this is right
, but this, is wrong?" I don't think so. Last time I checked God
was still on the throne.
About the man or woman going into the services I would say to
you.
Romans 14:4
"Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own
master he standeth or falleth . Yea, he shall be holden up : for
God is able to make him stand ."
#Post#: 5535--------------------------------------------------
Re: Not so pupular threads (1)
By: meshak Date: July 8, 2013, 3:57 pm
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[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=557.msg5518#msg5518
date=1373296349]
If you could please quote where I said anything about your
husband owning you I would appreciate that first.[/quote]
Lets talk one at a time. You seem to be derailing. I listed
one the sins is that the government owns you if you enlist. I
guess you don't know about the military how it operates.
The government can call you up anytime of the day even if it is
middle of the night when the emergency comes up.
That's what it means by the government own you. You know the
word "GI"? it is abbreviation for government issue. That's what
soldiers are; "GIs"
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