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#Post#: 4977--------------------------------------------------
Most Serious Question I Have Asked Yet
By: George Date: May 22, 2013, 8:35 pm
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29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is,
Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and
with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy
strength: this is the first commandment.
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37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with
all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
How is this accomplished? Can you name what you Love about God?
How do you Love God?
#Post#: 4978--------------------------------------------------
Re: Most Serious Question I Have Asked Yet
By: Kerry Date: May 23, 2013, 7:11 am
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^ First question is if we have the same God Israel has. After
all, the text reads, "Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one
Lord. . . ." If someone has a mistaken definition of God,
how could he possibly obey the commandment that follows? If
God is a mystery to someone, how could that person love what he
doesn't comprehend? If he isn't sure God even exists, how
could he love God?
It is a certainty that the person who comes across this
commandment for the first time cannot obey it perfectly. He
doesn't know how to for one thing. So there is a struggle to
come to grips with it. I propose this is accomplished in seven
steps. The first step is the first ray of light received by
the person. By that, I mean he is aware of the existence of
God and also knows God is aware of him. This step cannot be
taken as long as the heart is hard and intent on ignoring the
conscience. The heart -- and by that I mean the volition of
the volitional body -- must acknowledge its own wish to live as
purely as possible. Not only does the person regret his past
mistakes, he resolves to avoid future errors if he is granted
the insight and can avoid them.
This resolution shows faith in God "out there" if such a Being
exists and in "self" which knows it is displeased with its own
imperfections. It shows faith in God because, if God exists,
He must wish us the best and must wish us to become perfect.
The person resolving thus also has faith that God will provide
whatever is needed for him to please both God and his own inner
nature which is discontent with its imperfections. All that
being said, the person's resolution cannot depend on what God
may or may not do. That is impure thinking. Even if God were
to hide from self, the resolution to do one's best to abandon
all errors, even if one must do it all alone, must be firmly
made. Even if God's help is not seen at any time in one's life,
one must have faith that if God exists and is ignoring him,
that is the best thing. In one way, the person doesn't care if
God exists or not -- his resolution to pursue perfection would
be the same either way. Thus he is not demanding anything from
God, but trusting that if God does exist, all will be well as
long as he sincerely pursues perfection by purging himself of
errors. This is loving God before knowing what He may be -- by
trusting He is benevolent and will ignore us if that is best and
reveal Himself if that is best.
#Post#: 4980--------------------------------------------------
Re: Most Serious Question I Have Asked Yet
By: Leaf Date: May 23, 2013, 1:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]George wrote:
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is,
Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and
with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy
strength: this is the first commandment.
----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with
all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
How is this accomplished? Can you name what you Love about God?
How do you Love God? [/quote]
Hello George,
I remember questioning because of these verses also. It seemed
that I only knew what the mind and strength was. I wondered how
can I love God with my soul when I didn't even know what that
was. The heart... I didn't think it meant the physical muscle
beating within me... so how could I love God with it when I also
did not know what that was! Come to find out... the soul is
primarily our emotional life and who we are as an individual.
The heart is our will, or intentions.
So, to accomplish loving God with all our heart, soul, mind and
strength is to love God with all of our being in every way.
Can I name what I love about God? Everything.
How do I love God? I hope that I love God completely. I tend to
think that my love for God is simple because it is complete.
Only God knows for sure. I do fear God as described in my
signature line.
Leaf
#Post#: 4981--------------------------------------------------
Re: Most Serious Question I Have Asked Yet
By: George Date: May 23, 2013, 1:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=520.msg4978#msg4978
date=1369311066]
^ First question is if we have the same God Israel has. After
all, the text reads, "Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one
Lord. . . ." If someone has a mistaken definition of God,
how could he possibly obey the commandment that follows? If
God is a mystery to someone, how could that person love what he
doesn't comprehend? If he isn't sure God even exists, how
could he love God?
[/quote]
I am exactly that, I don't comprehend God therefor it is only
natural I can't truly Love God with all my heart, soul, mind and
body. That is exactly why it all seems so fake. It is easy to
say, I Love God; but to truly Love God you have to know and
comprehend God. I was raised to say I Love God, I was taught if
I didn't "SAY IT" I would burn in hell for eternity. Of course I
would say I Love God. At some point I realized I am just saying
words as a pre arrangement for death, so that when I die I don't
burn forever eternally. That is what I was taught, hell fire and
brimstone scared straight tactic. It all seem like just fake
wishful thinking that if I "SAY IT" I will defeat death and live
eternal bliss and not eternal fire or extinction for a non
believer. It is almost as if God and religion or spirituality is
all about an after life when this physical world expires for
oneself. Everything we do now will make preparation for the
afterlife. Don't do this and don't do that, say this and say
that, act this way, follow these steps and you are safe.
Otherwise? Then add on the your not good enough, born sinner,
never would you be worthy, only through Gods Good Grace shall
you be saved; but trying as hard as you can is the only way to
earn Gods Grace. So no matter how good you are or how perfect
you become you are never worthy.
I remember thinking as a child, what if a parent was to put
there baby in a room and never teach it how to talk or
communicate, never seen the outside world, never seen anything
but four walls and food, even they would go to hell? It just
always seem absurd to me that a Loving God would send someone
like that to hell because they were born a sinner, they didn't
accept Christ, they didn't get baptized, therefor they are
destine to eternal punishment.
I think my understanding of God is not pure, I was only doing
what I was taught.
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=520.msg4978#msg4978
date=1369311066]
It is a certainty that the person who comes across this
commandment for the first time cannot obey it perfectly. He
doesn't know how to for one thing. So there is a struggle to
come to grips with it. I propose this is accomplished in seven
steps. The first step is the first ray of light received by
the person. By that, I mean he is aware of the existence of
God and also knows God is aware of him. This step cannot be
taken as long as the heart is hard and intent on ignoring the
conscience. The heart -- and by that I mean the volition of
the volitional body -- must acknowledge its own wish to live as
purely as possible. Not only does the person regret his past
mistakes, he resolves to avoid future errors if he is granted
the insight and can avoid them.
This resolution shows faith in God "out there" if such a Being
exists and in "self" which knows it is displeased with its own
imperfections. It shows faith in God because, if God exists,
He must wish us the best and must wish us to become perfect.
The person resolving thus also has faith that God will provide
whatever is needed for him to please both God and his own inner
nature which is discontent with its imperfections. All that
being said, the person's resolution cannot depend on what God
may or may not do. That is impure thinking. Even if God were
to hide from self, the resolution to do one's best to abandon
all errors, even if one must do it all alone, must be firmly
made. Even if God's help is not seen at any time in one's life,
one must have faith that if God exists and is ignoring him,
that is the best thing. In one way, the person doesn't care if
God exists or not -- his resolution to pursue perfection would
be the same either way. Thus he is not demanding anything from
God, but trusting that if God does exist, all will be well as
long as he sincerely pursues perfection by purging himself of
errors. This is loving God before knowing what He may be -- by
trusting He is benevolent and will ignore us if that is best and
reveal Himself if that is best.
[/quote]
So if I understand what you are saying is that the first step in
comprehending God is when we comprehend the will to better
ourselves and connect that will from being of God? That would be
to say without God there could be no Good? We would all be
barbaric evil mammals?
#Post#: 4982--------------------------------------------------
Re: Most Serious Question I Have Asked Yet
By: George Date: May 23, 2013, 2:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Leaf link=topic=520.msg4980#msg4980
date=1369334908]
the soul is primarily our emotional life and who we are as an
individual. The heart is our will, or intentions.
Leaf
[/quote]
So if our emotions drive us to Love and our intention is pure,
then we are Loving God even if one doesn't acknowledge or
understand? What if one is driven by Love and there intentions
are pure yet they deny the existence of a Divine Creator?
#Post#: 4983--------------------------------------------------
Re: Most Serious Question I Have Asked Yet
By: Leaf Date: May 23, 2013, 2:11 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]So if our emotions drive us to Love and our intention is
pure, then we are Loving God even if one doesn't acknowledge or
understand? What if one is driven by Love and there intentions
are pure..... [/quote]
1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every
one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
Love... as for it's purity, it must be totally unbiased with
wanting the best for all involved... even if it's outworking is
painful to one's own self.
Love is a state of being, a noun, and from within that condition
actions are done in purity from that state. Emotions are not
necessarily involved.
[quote]....yet they deny the existence of a Divine
Creator?[/quote]
Psalm 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are
corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that
doeth good.
Jeremiah 17:
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately
wicked: who can know it?
10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give
every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of
his doings.
Leaf
#Post#: 4984--------------------------------------------------
Re: Most Serious Question I Have Asked Yet
By: Kerry Date: May 23, 2013, 2:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=520.msg4981#msg4981
date=1369335172]
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=520.msg4978#msg4978
date=1369311066]
^ First question is if we have the same God Israel has. After
all, the text reads, "Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one
Lord. . . ." If someone has a mistaken definition of God,
how could he possibly obey the commandment that follows? If
God is a mystery to someone, how could that person love what he
doesn't comprehend? If he isn't sure God even exists, how
could he love God?
[/quote]
I am exactly that, I don't comprehend God therefor it is only
natural I can't truly Love God with all my heart, soul, mind and
body. That is exactly why it all seems so fake. It is easy to
say, I Love God; but to truly Love God you have to know and
comprehend God. I was raised to say I Love God, I was taught if
I didn't "SAY IT" I would burn in hell for eternity. Of course I
would say I Love God. At some point I realized I am just saying
words as a pre arrangement for death, so that when I die I don't
burn forever eternally. That is what I was taught, hell fire and
brimstone scared straight tactic. It all seem like just fake
wishful thinking that if I "SAY IT" I will defeat death and live
eternal bliss and not eternal fire or extinction for a non
believer. It is almost as if God and religion or spirituality is
all about an after life when this physical world expires for
oneself. Everything we do now will make preparation for the
afterlife. Don't do this and don't do that, say this and say
that, act this way, follow these steps and you are safe.
Otherwise? Then add on the your not good enough, born sinner,
never would you be worthy, only through Gods Good Grace shall
you be saved; but trying as hard as you can is the only way to
earn Gods Grace. So no matter how good you are or how perfect
you become you are never worthy.[/quote]
This does not sound like a sensible view of God to me. This
sounds more like terrorism to me.
While it may be true that God is Just and there are consequences
for our actions, we should never believe God wishes to punish
anyone.
Kowtowing to a being out of dread and fear of punishment if we
do not say "I love you" is a human trait exhibited in the
presence of evil. Love cannot be ordered or commanded. Yet it
called a "commandment" -- but I would think "saying" might be
better.
[quote]I remember thinking as a child, what if a parent was to
put there baby in a room and never teach it how to talk or
communicate, never seen the outside world, never seen anything
but four walls and food, even they would go to hell? It just
always seem absurd to me that a Loving God would send someone
like that to hell because they were born a sinner, they didn't
accept Christ, they didn't get baptized, therefor they are
destine to eternal punishment.
I think my understanding of God is not pure, I was only doing
what I was taught.[/quote]
A child can better understand the absurdities of some religious
views. Such a being would not be God, not in my opinion. Nor
could I love such a being even if he was the most powerful being
in the universe. Perhaps I could fake it. Perhaps I could even
fool such a being -- since he would be motivated by pride. But
such a being again would not be god, not if I could fool him by
flattery and false assertions of love.
[quote]So if I understand what you are saying is that the first
step in comprehending God is when we comprehend the will to
better ourselves and connect that will from being of God?
[/quote]
If you were God, whom would you help? People who wanted
improve themselves or people who were trying to manipulate you
by flattery? People who thought you would punish them if you
weren't like a puppet?
If there is a God and if we are made in His image and likeness,
then finding that image and likeness is the first step. How
are you "like" God? At first, this may seem entirely imaginary
to you. You may say, "This is silly, I'm inventing God in my
own image." To a degree, that is so. To a degree, all you are
is a tiny piece of God "here" looking for God out "there."
If we pray, that could be also be God talking.
[quote]That would be to say without God there could be no Good?
We would all be barbaric evil mammals?[/quote]Don't jump the
guns. The first step is if there is something "good" in you --
don't worry for now where it came from.
I believe both good and evil are witnesses to the existence of
God. What is it about some crimes that repulses us and makes us
draw back in horror? What is that about us that says, "This
should not be this way." Is it only the product of evolution?
I say it's God talking.
What of barbaric animals? That is "the beast." But in animals,
it's not that bad. In men, when it triumphs over the urge to
do good, it's worse than in animals. Thus we see things like
the fighter in Syria who became a cannibal, not because they
are hungry and must do it to survive, but to be outrageous -- to
get a thrill out of being evil.
Can we become like the peaceful animals, content to enjoy the
pleasures of having bodies without wishing to inflict harm on
others? I believe that is the message of the Bible from Genesis
to Revelation. I would say "the beast" rose up in Cain and
overwhelmed him. I wouldn't say Cain was a "bad" person, just
weak -- and hadn't resolved to restrain the beast. I would even
say he loved God, his parents and Abel. But not enough. When
the beast arises, that's when we have the opportunity to tame it
and become better people. Thus we become more like God,
reflecting His nature more in ourselves.
#Post#: 4985--------------------------------------------------
Re: Most Serious Question I Have Asked Yet
By: Leaf Date: May 23, 2013, 3:11 pm
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^Indeed.
#Post#: 4987--------------------------------------------------
Re: Most Serious Question I Have Asked Yet
By: coldwar Date: May 24, 2013, 11:18 am
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I think something needs to be added to this, and hopefully I can
do it without taking anything away from what has already been
said.
The "sum of the whole Law" as Jesus spoke in these verses is at
first glance deceptively simple, but when one truly meditates
deeply on it, becomes impossible for all people, for how can
anybody know if they are truly loving God enough? How can we
ever know if "God's speaking to our heart" isn't just our own
voice of self deceit in our heads?
Ok, a real simple argument could be "if it is not possible, then
why would Jesus say it?"
The answer is sort of like painting a picture (so that Mike can
relate!) - we need to start with the broadest of brushes,
putting the base-washes onto the canvas, and if this isn't done
correctly, the picture will never look quite right. These
base-washes are the GOD as He is revealed in the Old Testament
and the Gospels. He is a hard GOD, a jealous GOD, a dark GOD
hidden in a cloud, a GOD who only revealed bits of Himself
through certain prophets - and usually that wasn't pretty. At
the same time, the OT also reveals another "wash" of a GOD of
light, mercy, and love. We see this a lot especially in the
Psalms.
So at best, we are left with a confusing GOD, one who is
especially difficult to comprehend, and in fact, if anybody says
to me they think they comprehend GOD, I think they're deceiving
themselves.
Fact is, we need help. Fortunately, the help comes from this
same GOD. "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see
God." (Matt. 5:8). We only comprehend this GOD when we are able
to see Him for ourselves - and the Bible says the "pure in
heart" will accomplish this. This becomes a "third wash" of our
painting - it is a red one, painted in Christ's blood, for it is
the only thing that can possibly make a human heart pure enough
to see, and therefore comprehend GOD. Without the red wash,
nobody is made white enough to see, and therefore comprehend
God. Many try to accomplish this on their own, and, although
they might accomplish a great deal of purity through their
innermost effort, and outward works, it is in fact putting the
cart before the horse. "Yet one thing you still lack" Jesus said
to a man who had kept the whole law from childhood - and then he
told the man to do something that Jesus knew the man couldn't do
- to sell of all his wealth, give it to the poor and most
importantly, to follow Jesus as a Disciple. We all have that
"one thing still lacking" - all of us without exception.
It is this "red wash" that makes up for all of what we lack in
ourselves. If we try to complete the picture without it, it'll
never look quite right, no matter how much we paint the finer
details and layers of paint on top, it'll still be "lacking that
one thing" and we will not see GOD. But with the "red wash", the
things we lack in ourselves no longer matter - the red becomes
our completion. now the cart and the horse are the right way
around, and the rest of our lives can be painted on without
anything lacking underneath, our past sins are forgiven, our
ongoing sins can be confessed and forgiven, and our works, for
which all are judged by the consuming fire of God's Presence,
will be purified, instead of being burnt up. The purifying fires
of God which judge us will leave us with works built on the
foundation of Jesus Christ, and therefore will become purified
works of eternal value, for those of us who have allowed the red
wash to be applied to our lives. For those without the red, this
is the foundation lacking from the picture - the only foundation
that makes the picture right to build up the remaining layers,
and when the fires of God's judgment come, all the good works
will be consumed with the bad, leaving nothing but a naked soul
that will be saved, but as by fire (1 Cor. 3:15).
#Post#: 4995--------------------------------------------------
Re: Most Serious Question I Have Asked Yet
By: Mike Date: May 27, 2013, 1:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=coldwar link=topic=520.msg4987#msg4987
date=1369412339]
Ok, a real simple argument could be "if it is not possible, then
why would Jesus say it?"
The answer is sort of like painting a picture (so that Mike can
relate!) - we need to start with the broadest of brushes,
putting the base-washes onto the canvas, and if this isn't done
correctly, the picture will never look quite right. These
base-washes are the GOD as He is revealed in the Old Testament
and the Gospels. He is a hard GOD, a jealous GOD, a dark GOD
hidden in a cloud, a GOD who only revealed bits of Himself
through certain prophets - and usually that wasn't pretty. At
the same time, the OT also reveals another "wash" of a GOD of
light, mercy, and love. We see this a lot especially in the
Psalms.
So at best, we are left with a confusing GOD, one who is
especially difficult to comprehend, and in fact, if anybody says
to me they think they comprehend GOD, I think they're deceiving
themselves.
Fact is, we need help. Fortunately, the help comes from this
same GOD. "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see
God." (Matt. 5:8). We only comprehend this GOD when we are able
to see Him for ourselves - and the Bible says the "pure in
heart" will accomplish this. This becomes a "third wash" of our
painting - it is a red one, painted in Christ's blood, for it is
the only thing that can possibly make a human heart pure enough
to see, and therefore comprehend GOD. Without the red wash,
nobody is made white enough to see, and therefore comprehend
God. Many try to accomplish this on their own, and, although
they might accomplish a great deal of purity through their
innermost effort, and outward works, it is in fact putting the
cart before the horse. "Yet one thing you still lack" Jesus said
to a man who had kept the whole law from childhood - and then he
told the man to do something that Jesus knew the man couldn't do
- to sell of all his wealth, give it to the poor and most
importantly, to follow Jesus as a Disciple. We all have that
"one thing still lacking" - all of us without exception.
It is this "red wash" that makes up for all of what we lack in
ourselves. If we try to complete the picture without it, it'll
never look quite right, no matter how much we paint the finer
details and layers of paint on top, it'll still be "lacking that
one thing" and we will not see GOD. But with the "red wash", the
things we lack in ourselves no longer matter - the red becomes
our completion. now the cart and the horse are the right way
around, and the rest of our lives can be painted on without
anything lacking underneath, our past sins are forgiven, our
ongoing sins can be confessed and forgiven, and our works, for
which all are judged by the consuming fire of God's Presence,
will be purified, instead of being burnt up. The purifying fires
of God which judge us will leave us with works built on the
foundation of Jesus Christ, and therefore will become purified
works of eternal value, for those of us who have allowed the red
wash to be applied to our lives. For those without the red, this
is the foundation lacking from the picture - the only foundation
that makes the picture right to build up the remaining layers,
and when the fires of God's judgment come, all the good works
will be consumed with the bad, leaving nothing but a naked soul
that will be saved, but as by fire (1 Cor. 3:15).
[/quote]
Actually I don't always paint in that way, but maybe I should.
Nevertheless it's a good analogy which might work for me if I
reverse it and start painting the way God makes himself known to
us "in layers".
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