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#Post#: 4932--------------------------------------------------
Re: Signs
By: Kerry Date: May 19, 2013, 3:42 pm
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[quote author=Mike link=topic=514.msg4931#msg4931
date=1368990588]
If by the 'Word of God' you mean the 66 book version of the
Bible then I can only bow in wonderment at the omniscience of
God, if something that came into such varigated existence by
such aparently dubious means really can be the 'Word of God'.
And God forbid that the likes of me should belittle God's
omniscience by claiming that it just cannot be so.
[/quote]No, I do not mean by that the 66 books of the Bible.
The various books of the Bible are incomplete and at times even
somewhat flawed versions of what the prophets saw and heard,
rendered into human language as best they were able. If God
had to wait for people in this world who could hear and see
perfectly in the prophetic, I doubt much would ever get done.
If we could not describe a painting accurately using a million
human words, how odd then is it to suppose we could write down
spiritual truths with complete accuracy? Human language by
itself lacks suitable words to describe some things.
I have come to have respect for the different prophets when I
can perceive the unique stamp they put on their messages. In
some ways, it's not a matter of right and wrong but style. If
we say God made all the flowers, should we expect them all to
be alike? Or does each flower in its species express
something different about the Creator? We say God is infinite,
so why would we expect people to be all the same? Thus even
the words they use may vary at times; but can we see, behind the
differences in language, when they are talking about the same
thing? It may be by seeking this common thread behind them all
that we ourselves may find our own unique nature.
#Post#: 4940--------------------------------------------------
Re: Signs
By: Mike Date: May 20, 2013, 1:47 am
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=514.msg4932#msg4932
date=1368996147]
If we could not describe a painting accurately using a million
human words, how odd then is it to suppose we could write down
spiritual truths with complete accuracy? Human language by
itself lacks suitable words to describe some things.
[/quote]
[center][IMG]
HTML http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy123/artisational/crosssmall-2.jpg[/img][/center]
[center]The 'greater light' and the 'lesser light'?[/center]
#Post#: 4952--------------------------------------------------
Re: Signs
By: Kerry Date: May 20, 2013, 7:23 pm
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^ I have seen that painting before but never connected it to the
two lights. Is there anything else you care to say of it? I
am curious but I don't want to pry.
#Post#: 4957--------------------------------------------------
Re: Signs
By: Mike Date: May 21, 2013, 12:23 am
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=514.msg4952#msg4952
date=1369095829]
^ I have seen that painting before but never connected it to the
two lights. Is there anything else you care to say of it? I
am curious but I don't want to pry.
[/quote]
When I used to exhibit I used to regard my paintings as a means
of creating openings to present Christianity to viewers who
might pause and ask about them.
For that reason I always included several abstracts which
generated that sort of interest.
When preparing such an abstract there was always the element of
specific intent as to its import, but there was also the factor
that my mind embraced the whole spectrum of such as comprised my
'faith' and I'm sure that resulted in subconscios input which
added to that of specific intent.
Just as I believe that scripture is used by God to say different
things to different readers according to their different needs,
so it is that the best 'impressionist' paintings are always
'abstracted' away from the 'photographic' so as to stimulate the
viewer into 'reading his impression' from the painting.
In the painting which I posted you may be able to decifer the
words of John 1:5 "Light shineth in darkness; and the darkness
comprehended it not"
Because the painting was done when I lived and exhibited in
Spain the first part of that scripture was appended in English
and the second part was appended in Spanish....can you strain
your eyes to just make out those appended words between the two
circles?
The larger circle was painted to resemble the earth viewed from
space as illuminated by both the greater and the lesser lights
and has 'Hebrews' appended faintly and diagonally across the top
left with an extract from Hebrews appended faintly as a diagonal
overlay to the circle of the 'earth'.
The smaller circle was meant to represent the greater and lesser
lights, whilst the 'cross' (essential to salvation IMO) was
included to enable me to preach the 'full Gospel' to any
interested viewer; the cross also being 'illuminated' to depict
Christ as being "The light of the World" (the cross was added
later once I became aware of the value of its inclusion and
after I had made a digital record of the original painting)
The painting is 'quatered into 'four' being the number of
terrestrial creation.
And 'blood' is depict below the two circles as running 'upwards'
to represent the way back up to God
That's about as much as I can remember of the "element of
specific intent" included in that particular painting.
Thanks for asking.
#Post#: 4958--------------------------------------------------
Re: Signs
By: coldwar Date: May 21, 2013, 8:25 am
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Signs often accompany God, but more often they don't. There are
even cases in Scripture when the accompanying sign is quite
different than what was expected or foretold. There is a very
good reason for that. The most famous instance is in the
Pentecost account of Acts 2:
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith
God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons
and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see
visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in
those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the
earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into
blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the
name of the Lord shall be saved.
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man
approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs,
which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also
know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and
foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have
crucified and slain:
In this, there is a very notable difference between what was
predicted or anticipated, and what actually happened. Luke
described what actually happened on that day, with the rush of a
wind, and fire spitting down, people received the Holy Spirit
and began speaking in other languages, unknown to themselves who
were speaking, but native to many who were watching. However,
Luke did not describe what Peter said was predicted, did he?
Only in part - yes, there was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit,
and yes, they prophesied the great works of God, but even
greater, they spoke these things so that the hearers could
understand them in their own earthly languages, unknown to those
who were actually speaking.
However, the sun was not darkened, nor was the moon turned to
blood literally on that day. Luke described the outward sign,
and Peter interpreted it as a prophecy that was fulfilled
spiritually. Pentecost marked the end of one eon and the
beginning of another, one in which the greater and lesser lights
known spiritually to the Jewish people dimmed and came to an end
- this is why the Jews didn't question Peter's interpretation at
that time - they knew the spiritual meaning of the darkening of
the sun, and the moon's turning into blood, as spoken by their
Prophets. The Age of the Jews ended on that day, and a new
beginning, where "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord
shall be saved", was instituted.
This sign - all of it, was against the Jews - "Him, being
delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God,
ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" -
this was the end of it for them. This sign - all of it, was
never repeated in full, nor will it ever be, I don't think.
Subsequent outpourings with similar signs of languages occurred
in Acts, upon the Samaritans and the Gentiles, until eventually,
the Holy Spirit filled the whole earth. It was then the
outpourings stopped - the Holy Spirit is not "poured out" any
more, because He now fills the earth. Paul noted how in Corinth,
they wanted to keep repeating that which they had seen in the
beginning - the wonderful "sign of tongues", but Paul's
instruction "1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak
five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach
others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue" was
all about how the desire to keep repeating the "signs of God"
which came when the Eons changed was foolishness, and had no
more purpose for the continuance and building of the church. In
the same way, the Holy Spirit is no longer received by
outpouring, but rather by immersion, because He fills the earth.
As a very receptive veteran of so called signs in the church, I
can nonetheless now say that nothing I saw happen, both in my
body and outside, came from God. I can say this because people
(including myself) who spoke in tongues, had no understanding of
what was being said, thus violating the sign of Pentecost. Once
in awhile, an "interpreter" would speak up, as if to make it
proper, but the interpretations were like prophecies that never
came true. If somebody I knew got healed, they would fall sick
again the next day. Among the people I knew well who were
receptive to healing (including myself), even under "big name
healers", nobody (including myself) remained healed.
"Everybody seeks after a sign, but no sign will be given" is
more like what I've seen, to be truthful. There is a coming new
eon, and so we will see signs and wonders from God once again,
if we're still living on this earth when it happens. But until
then, I don't believe God is obligated to send signs upon His
people at our request.
#Post#: 4959--------------------------------------------------
Re: Signs
By: Mike Date: May 21, 2013, 9:55 am
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Dave Coldwar,
Personnally I would not rule out the possibility that we remain
within the gambit of what was prophesied to commence at
Pentecost just because some of it has not yet happened.
Whether or not you are right in closing off 'tongues' (as per
Pentecost) at the end of the apostolic era, I still hold out the
possibility that it might reappear in the future (if indeed it
has not already occured in parallel with other 'false'
manifestations.)
I continue to allow for the sun yet to be darkened together with
other aspects of the Pentecostal prophecy.
#Post#: 4960--------------------------------------------------
Re: Signs
By: coldwar Date: May 21, 2013, 10:42 am
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That could be correct mike. I think there's a possibility that
the signs are like "bookends for the age" so to speak, with the
tongues and prophecy at the very beginning, and the sun and moon
at the other far end, if these were in fact not fulfilled
spiritually. One thing I'm quite certain of is that the sun and
moon were not fulfilled on that day, otherwise, Luke surely
would've mentioned it(?)
#Post#: 4961--------------------------------------------------
Re: Signs
By: Leaf Date: May 21, 2013, 12:36 pm
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The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,
before that great and notable day of the Lord come: Acts 2:20
You know how scripture often contains many meanings? I sometimes
think that this verse (and the other passages provided too) is
referring to the dark night of the soul (sun darkened) and the
death of the soul that sins (blood red moon).
#Post#: 4964--------------------------------------------------
Re: Signs
By: coldwar Date: May 21, 2013, 1:58 pm
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So many people think it's the moon turning "blood red", as
happens very commonly when there's a lunar eclipse, heavy air
pollution, volcanic or smoke from a forest fire - but this stuff
happens all the time. However, i think the Bible is referring to
a 'turning to blood", maybe melting and dripping like blood-red
wax, and this must be symbolic of "spiritually" something else.
#Post#: 4965--------------------------------------------------
Re: Signs
By: Mike Date: May 21, 2013, 2:14 pm
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[quote author=coldwar link=topic=514.msg4960#msg4960
date=1369150934]
I think there's a possibility that the signs are like "bookends
for the age" so to speak, with the tongues and prophecy at the
very beginning, and the sun and moon at the other far end.
[/quote]
Good analogy Dave.
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