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#Post#: 4868--------------------------------------------------
Signs
By: Justin Mangonel Date: May 13, 2013, 7:08 am
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Dear All,
I woke up this morning thinking about signs. It came to me,
through revelation, that whenever God shows up there are signs
present. It is written,
“It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as
one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the
Lord; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and
cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the Lord, saying,
For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the
house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the Lord; So
that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the
cloud: for the glory of the Lord had filled the house of God.”
2 Chronicles 5:13,14
Perhaps you have heard the saying “signs of life.” When someone
appears dead people check for a pulse and look for other
indications that the person may still be living. In fact, when
people lack signs of life they are pronounced dead.
Some people in Christianity today despise people who look for
signs of life as those who are somehow weak and not able to live
by faith. To some being able to live without signs is
considered a higher form of true Christianity. They do not need
to speak in tongues nor believe in a rapture. They do not need
emotional experiences. In fact the less signs they have the
more they believe they are walking strong in God.
While I do agree that we must walk with God even in the absence
of “signs” I believe it is preferable to walk with God with
signs. I believe we should embrace instead of eschew
manifestations of God’s presence because it is when God is with
us in a demonstrative way that our very nature is renewed and
changed for the better. It is written,
“Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the
glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle. And Moses was not able
to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud
abode thereon, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.
And when the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the
children of Israel went onward in all their journeys:”
Exodus 40:43-36
The children of Israel lived by following the presence of God
and it was through signs that they were able to know where God
was. It is not weakness to follow the pillar of cloud by day
but rather expedience. To be where God is meant shelter, food,
and protection and is the only way they could survive in the
desert.
Just as a body with no signs of life is dead so to churches with
no signs of the Spirit are dead. It is just that some churches
have been deceased for so long they have made it into a virtue
instead of a tragedy. Instead of mourning their lack of life
they are proud of it and look down upon others who seek such
signs.
The truth is that we are all mixed up about a great many things
in Christianity. In our hearts we want to serve God but we just
don’t know how to properly go about it. This is why we
desperately need to live by revelation for only in that way can
our Father teach us what we really need to know. We need
clarity more than conformity. Only through obtaining His
perspective can we possibly change our perspective.
We have entered into a time of strong delusion. The world is
turning towards the spirit of antichrist in preparation for his
revealing. As Christians it is ever more important that we
become willing and able to live by every world that proceeds our
of the mouth of our Father on a daily basis, trusting Him more
than everything that is going on around us. We need to seek His
presence and signs are what indicate where He is.
In conclusion, signs are indicators that God is present and we
should welcome them into our lives and into our churches. Jesus
said that He came to bring us life and life more abundantly
therefore when He is present there will be signs of life. Let
no one intimidate us into thinking that we should not want to
see and experience such signs for to be with God is the goal we
all hope for and share.
#Post#: 4869--------------------------------------------------
Re: Signs
By: Kerry Date: May 13, 2013, 11:17 am
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How do you explain these passages?
Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and
adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no
sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false
prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that,
if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
I believe it's dangerous to trust signs and wonders. I've seen
signs and wonders myself. I'd say some were from God and others
not.
Ever hear of Cindy Jacobs? She goes around making so-called
prophecies, most of which don't come true. I used to do better
in my non-Christian days with a pack of Tarot cards. I still
have certain mental gifts and sometimes get flashes of insight;
but those can be of different types. Some are mere telepathy,
reading someone's mind. Then there's when an angel tells me
something. But a demon can also often predict the future
reasonably well -- not as well an angelic revelation. I'm 100%
sure Cindy Jacobs is not inspired by God. Her "prophecies" fail.
But I'll go further than you, Justin. I believe that everything
that happens to us is a sign of some kind. It's up to us to
discern its origin. I noticed a spectacular sunrise this
morning with a particular shape of clouds just as I was driving
by a house where I once had an even more spectacular "sign."
I'll tell you about that. I was driving about a mile away when
it started. A spirit of some type was trying to get my
attention. I knew that when I felt a puff of air in the middle
of my face. It was not a breeze coming through the car and
hitting my entire body. Just the center of my face. So I said
hello to it. Nothing happened for a while so I was waiting to
see if anything would. Then I took some turns and started up a
hill on another road and off to my right I saw a double
rainbow. There was a woman there I'd never met watching it.
So I stopped to watch it and we struck up a conversation. She
knew the situation was special since we had both said so.
I could tell she was pregnant. When we talked about that, she
said it was her first child. I "knew" she would have a son
and it would be a godly child; but I didn't feel led to tell
her. I was shown that because the Dark Side would be after
that child. I was supposed to pray for his protection. I
never met her again and have never seen the child. But this
morning I was being reminded to pray for that child again.
That's how I read that sign anyway although no angel spoke to
me.
Can I be sure those signs were from God? Not 100%. But it
would be hard for me to think I was being deceived by a demon
since the revelations got me to pray for the protection of a
child. As St. Teresa of Avila put it, to paraphrase her, if
the Devil deceived me, he shouldn't try that trick again since
he got me to pray for the good.
Everything that happens shows us something about how God
designed things -- but sometimes signs also show us how mankind
has attracted the demonic to corrupt the world.
Have you ever noticed that people use the expression "speak in
tongues" while the New Testament doesn't use that phrase? It
says "with other tongues," "with new tongues," and in one place
"with other lips." Remember how Isaiah's lips were purified?
I've known of only two cases where the person was speaking in
another language, a real language. It does happen, but seldom.
In most cases, the phonemes used by the person speaking in
tongues are those in his native language; and that means he's
not speaking in another language since he wouldn't be using
phonemes from his native language if he were. I used to watch
Robert Tilton on television. He wasn't speaking in an angelic
tongue. He had a few stock phrases he would repeat time and
again. He was faking it. He was also using his tongue to
deceive people, telling me he was still speaking with the evil
or old tongue that no man can tame by himself.
James 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly
evil, full of deadly poison.
There really are signs everywhere if we're paying attention.
There are even some very spectacular ones at times if our minds
aren't steeped in disbelief and putting up walls against them.
What we call "ordinary reality" is what most people have faith
in. They believe walls are solid, so walls appear solid.
Using a non-Christian method, I think I could get almost anyone
is half-decent mental shape to start seeing through objects
perhaps in a few hours, perhaps longer. I've done it with an
atheist. He started seeing through things. To get him to that
point, I had to get him to stop wanting things to stay in place
so much, desperately hanging onto physical reality.
Jesus was repeating what Moses said about signs and wonders. By
themselves, they prove nothing about what is behind them.
Deuteronomy 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a
dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto
thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not
known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that
dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know
whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with
all your soul.
Seriously, Justin, miracles don't impress me. If they happen,
they happen. If they don't, they don't. It's fine with me
either way. I accept it either way. What I know is that all
such things may cease some day to test us.
1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be
prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they
shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
#Post#: 4871--------------------------------------------------
Re: Signs
By: Justin Mangonel Date: May 13, 2013, 3:04 pm
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Hi K,
It is unfortunate that you have had experiences in the spiritual
realm that were not of God for that does tend to cloud the issue
a bit. From reading you posts you seem to be very skeptical
about anything supernatural to the point where you almost
dismiss their importance.
Seems to me, that Jesus, who is the pattern Son, was engaging in
the supernatural constantly, fulfilling prophecy, and these were
signs to His generation. Perhaps what Jesus was saying to the
Jews is that He had given them plenty of signs yet still they
would not believe. Therefore, He told them He was going to give
them the greatest sign of all...his resurrection.
Miracles impress me plenty if they are Boniface and from God.
Living the Christian life any other way is rather difficult and
boring.
[I hit the wrong button and altered this post by mistake
thinking I was answering it. I apologize. I tried to put it
back the way it was. Kerry]
#Post#: 4872--------------------------------------------------
Re: Signs
By: Kerry Date: May 13, 2013, 6:16 pm
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Hi Justin,
[quote]It is unfortunate that you have had experiences in the
spiritual realm that were not of God for that does tend to cloud
the issue a bit. [/quote]I think all things work together for
the good for me. I think it taught me discernment.
[quote]From reading you posts you seem to be very skeptical
about anything supernatural to the point where you almost
dismiss their importance. [/quote]I don't think they're that
important. What you call supernatural seems almost ordinary to
me.
[quote] Seems to me, that Jesus, who is the pattern Son, was
engaging in the supernatural constantly, fulfilling prophecy,
and these were signs to His generation. Perhaps what Jesus was
saying to the Jews is that He had given them plenty of signs yet
still they would not believe. Therefore, He told them He was
going to give them the greatest sign of all...his resurrection.
[/quote]
What that as a sign? If so, we should keep in mind what he told
Thomas, "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed:
blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
It is to be expected that things happen around almost any
prophet. It is also expected that signs can happen around false
prophets. That is what Moses taught.
[quote]
Miracles impress me plenty if they are Boniface and from God.
Living the Christian life any other way is rather difficult and
boring. [/quote]How do you know the miracles are from God? You
sound impressed by miracles. How do you they aren't there to
keep you attached to spiritual deception? You sound as if you
need them. That's almost like the problem I gave about
pain-killers -- people keep needing them because the source of
the pain is still there.
I am troubled too by the lack of an answer about the passages
from the I gave you. The Bible certainly does not condemn
signs and wonders; but it warns about craving them.
It seemed to me it does bother you; and it seems to me there is
something not quite at peace within you over it. You also
brought up the rapture which I don't believe in. I could tell
you exactly what I think was being described -- and I could give
you the passages from the bible as well as personal experiences.
The idea of the rapture is a recent invention of men which
contradicts the Bible. I think I know what "caught up" means
since I've been caught up out of my body. To me, a lot of
other people are talking about things they haven't seen
--speculating. Nor would any miracles sway me. I've been
around Wiccans and Scientologists and seen some things you could
call miracles. Why would they sway me? Anyone with a little
talent who studies the occult can learn how to do many things.
You also talked about the many signs given to Israel. You
forgot the end of the matter. They perished in the wilderness.
The signs and wonders did not help them.
#Post#: 4874--------------------------------------------------
Re: Signs
By: Justin Mangonel Date: May 13, 2013, 6:48 pm
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Dear Kerry,
It seems odd that what I would call supernatural is ordinary for
you. I really don't understand what you mean by that statement.
I comes off as "been there, done that, not impressed."
I think what is happening here is that you may be coming from a
very different theological place than I am and I am not fully
aware of it. What I write is fairly plain but you answer me as
if I am not making much sense when I know I am. I am not
downing you but rather trying to understand where the disconnect
is occurring.
Blessings,
Justin
#Post#: 4875--------------------------------------------------
Re: Signs
By: Kerry Date: May 13, 2013, 7:51 pm
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[quote author=Justin Mangonel link=topic=514.msg4874#msg4874
date=1368488903]
Dear Kerry,
It seems odd that what I would call supernatural is ordinary for
you. I really don't understand what you mean by that statement.
I comes off as "been there, done that, not impressed."
[/quote]
It is partly that, Justin. "Strange" things happened even when
I was a child. What you call "supernatural" is not really
supernatural at all. It's part of reality science doesn't
understand yet. There are laws which govern these things.
Miracles aren't random and they aren't defying nature.
People who never saw airplanes thought they were miracles.
Airplanes are not miracles. Even healings are are following
real laws. You seem to want to be impressed instead of seeking
out the laws that govern these things.
[quote]I think what is happening here is that you may be coming
from a very different theological place than I am and I am not
fully aware of it. What I write is fairly plain but you answer
me as if I am not making much sense when I know I am. I am not
downing you but rather trying to understand where the disconnect
is occurring. [/quote]
For me, the concept of the three heavens is important.
Emotions and feelings connect with the lowest one -- water.
That area is also where men have corrupted things spiritually
the most. Hell is found there -- "in the sea." That is where
the Wiccans and most mediums operate. It's also where many
religions operate; and things which appear miraculous can be
done by connecting with this "heaven" which is not all that
heavenly at present.
Above that is the second heaven of air -- where we are told
Satan rules. That is largely true too -- he still possesses a
foothold here. And from this area, he can connect with people's
minds. From this area too, he can manipulate the entities
below "in the sea."
Above that is the third heaven of fire. Satan has no place
there. Until someone connects with this level, he can't be sure
he isn't being deceived. By what you say of things, I am led
to think you are connecting mostly with the first heaven, and
that has its perils.
Think about the disciples. It took them about three years of
being with Jesus before they were ready to receive the baptism
by fire. The replacement for Judas had also been with them that
long. Paul also said he spent three years in Arabia before
undertaking his work. I think it takes a minimum of three
years of solid growth before the mustard seed which was a herb
becomes a tree. In the early Church, it was forbidden to
promote someone too quickly. Someone couldn't convert one day
and be made a Bishop the next (not in theory anyway, although
some people flaunted the rule). The student had to accept
being disciplined by someone who already had that connection.
In Pentecostal circles, this is ignored. People are told they
can receive the Holy Spirit in its fullness almost immediately.
I doubt it. I see problems. I know how long it took me, and I
know what the Bible says. I know that my previous
"supernatural" experiences were all at the "water" and "air"
levels -- the first and second heavens.
Often they lay hands on people. What spirit are people
receiving? Do they know? Where did that spirit originate?
I know where the Apostolic churches got their spirit. By the
laying on of hands -- and it goes back to the Apostles. What
of someone like Joseph Smith? He claimed that John the Baptist
showed up. Here's his claim from Doctrine and Covenants
HTML http://www.dcsites.com/dc013.htm:
"[John the Baptist] commanded us to go and be baptized, and gave
us directions that I should baptize Oliver Cowdery, and that
afterwards he should baptize me.
Accordingly we went and were baptized. I baptized him first,
and afterwards he baptized me - after which I laid my hands upon
his head and ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood, and
afterwards he laid his hands on me and ordained me to the same
Priesthood - for so we were commanded." (Joseph Smith History
1:70-71)
"Immediately on our coming up out of the water after we had
been baptized, we experienced great and glorious blessings from
our Heavenly Father. No sooner had I baptized Oliver Cowdery,
than the Holy Ghost fell upon him, and he stood up and
prophesied many things which should shortly come to pass. And
again, so soon as I had been baptized by him, I also had the
spirit of prophecy, when, standing up, I prophesied concerning
the rise of this Church, and many other things connected with
the Church, and this generation of the children of men. We were
filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our
salvation. Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the
scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning
and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us
in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever
before had thought of." (Joseph Smith History 1:73-74)
Do you think I believe that? I don't. What I might believe is
that "something" showed up and claimed to be John the Baptist.
Or perhaps Smith made it all up?
Where did the speaking in tongues originate among the
Pentecostals? Largely with the Azuza Street Revival
HTML http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azusa_Street_Revival
in Los
Angeles. Whatever spirit they had there is probably still
around. It seems that William Seymour was largely the person
who started the current belief in speaking in tongues. What
spirit did he have? I can't say since I wasn't there to see or
know; but I am not buying his claim any more than I buy Joseph
Smith's. It looks like emotionalism to me.
#Post#: 4885--------------------------------------------------
Re: Signs
By: Kerry Date: May 15, 2013, 11:06 am
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Justin,
My intention was <not> to condemn you or hurt your feelings.
I thought you were puzzled why some Christians don't agree with
your views, so I was trying to explain my own views. I'm not
sure how productive this conversation is.
{Edited to add that 'not' -- thanks, George}
#Post#: 4886--------------------------------------------------
Re: Signs
By: George Date: May 15, 2013, 12:39 pm
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=514.msg4885#msg4885
date=1368634002]
Justin,
My intention was to condemn you or hurt your feelings.
[/quote]
I think Kerry meant his intention was NOT to condemn or hurt
feelings. If I am wrong I apologize and Kerry can correct me;
but I'm sure he didn't want to hurt your feelings or condemn
you!
#Post#: 4887--------------------------------------------------
Re: Signs
By: Kerry Date: May 15, 2013, 3:34 pm
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[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=514.msg4886#msg4886
date=1368639557]
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=514.msg4885#msg4885
date=1368634002]
Justin,
My intention was to condemn you or hurt your feelings.
[/quote]
I think Kerry meant his intention was NOT to condemn or hurt
feelings. If I am wrong I apologize and Kerry can correct me;
but I'm sure he didn't want to hurt your feelings or condemn
you!
[/quote]I have a habit when not completely alert of typing too
fast and omitting the "nots" in sentences.
#Post#: 4891--------------------------------------------------
Re: Signs
By: coldwar Date: May 16, 2013, 7:38 am
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My view is that “Sign Gifts” - as classic dispensationalists
call them (tongues, healing, miracles, raising the dead, etc.)
have not yet gone away – they will be "when that which is
perfect is come" We need signs now just as much as we did then –
why wouldn't we? HOWEVER, God is not scripturally obligated to
send these things to the church, they immediately fall into
mis-use, just as they did in Corinth, so we see in modern
Pentecostalism. Most importantly of all, “slain in the Spirit /
falling out”, “drunk in the Spirit”, “holy laughter” “birth
pangs”, “spirit orgasms”, “holy nudity”, “getting wrecked” -
these things are not Biblical sign gifts, and are not from God.
I've been there- done that, and eventually became troubled about
why I was seeing all this stuff, but NEVER a bona-fide,
verifiable instance of real tongues-speaking (that is, in a
human language unknown to the speaker), nor any healing among
all the people that I know who were sincerely seeking it.
it wasn't long before people who were not getting "slain" were
being labelled "hard to receive" by no less than John Arnott
himself, and were called upon for "special discipleship". Now
I'm saying, run, don't walk away from any church where this is
happening.
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