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#Post#: 4835--------------------------------------------------
The Powers of the World (Age) To Come
By: Justin Mangonel Date: May 8, 2013, 9:57 am
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Dear All,
I have a revelation that I would like to share with you all that
is very encouraging.
It is written,
"And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the
world to come"
Hebrews 6:5
"That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of
his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."
Ephesians 2:27
What I want tos hare with you is that, due to a having a
foretaste of our inheritance i.e. the Holy Spirit, we are able
to experience the powers of the world to come. This world is
the New Earth that God shall create and which will be our home.
All the supernatural stuff that takes place in the name of Jesus
only does so because we are beginning to experience life here as
we will fully experience life there. These experiences are part
of the exceeding riches of His grace and kindness towards us
through Christ Jesus.
In the world to come everything works through faith. This is
why Jesus said,
"Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye
have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is
done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this
mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it
shall be done."
In the New Heavens and New Earth that is exactly how we will
live. By faith nothing shall be impossible.
Why is this important to understand? It is important to
understand what we have available to us now, here in this
creation, to live our Christian lives. Due to the fact that ,
through the Holy Spirit and by faith we have access to the
powers of the world to come, we can overcome anything. This is
why we can, in the name of Jesus, raise the dead because, in
that future place, we will have that ability in His name. When
we ask anything there, in the name of Jesus, it will be done for
us.
Once we all start to come into this revelation nothing will be
impossible for us and greater works that Christ will naturally
flow from us. Let us all start to realize what we have to work
with so that we can overcome and conquer every obstacle we face.
Amen.
God bless,
Justin
#Post#: 4842--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Powers of the World (Age) To Come
By: Justin Mangonel Date: May 9, 2013, 12:13 am
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Dear All,
What I find interesting is that the Bible does really make sense
if you have the correct perspective. The doctrine of the "world
to come" i.e. the New Heavens and Earth is a vital peace of that
perspective. In the verse I quoted about the powers of the
world...translated age also... to come, it is vital to
understand what that world is.
I believe that the teaching of the New Heavens and New Earth is
central to the understanding of much of the New Testament. Many
people are very concerned with a seven year tribulation or
sometimes they even are aware of the importance of the
Millennium but many are unaware of the central role the world to
come plays in many things that the apostles talk about.
The apostle taught that their was an end to this creation and
then a new creation. This is why we must have a new birth.
This is why there is a New Jerusalem. This is also why we must
receive glorified bodies because nothing of the corruption of
this world can live in a new and perfect creation. This is why
we are born again...because just as we were born once into this
creation we shall be born again into a new creation.
These key and very fundamental doctrines must be brought to the
forefront of our biblical understanding in order to start to see
things that the Holy Spirit wrote through the apostles
correctly. When we start to do this we start to understand the
underlying "whys" of what the Holy Spirit wrote.
God bless,
Justin
#Post#: 4843--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Powers of the World (Age) To Come
By: Justin Mangonel Date: May 9, 2013, 9:56 am
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Dear All,
We all desire to be like Jesus for He is the pattern son.
However, Jesus did the will of the Father with the aid of the
powers of the world to come as I have described in my last post.
He healed the sick, raised the dead, gave sight to the blind,
cured leprosy, stilled storms with His voice, cursed a fig tree
until it withered, walked on water, made the lame to walk, knew
the thoughts of men who were listening to Him speak, knew money
could be found in the mouth of a fish, multiplied the fish and
the loaves a couple of times and fed five thousand and four
thousand respectively, spoke with Moses and Elijah, and answered
Pharisees so straightly and wisely that they dare not ask him
any more questions.
So, why are we trying to emulate Him without using all the means
that He used to serve His Father? I get the feeling, sometimes,
that people actually think that miracles and spiritual
experiences are somehow a "lower" form of Christianity and if
you are really "a solid Christian" that you can and will live it
without a such a crutches. However, I think it is impossible to
be fully like Christ without using such tools of the spirit.
Furthermore, it is amazing to me that people dismiss emotions as
something inferior. You know what emotions are? They are a
natural response to finally getting to meet our maker. Of
course we are going to be emotional and do all sorts of things
because we finally have found what we have been seeking so long.
Consider what happened to the apostles on the day of
Pentecost...it was so "out there" that those who weren't having
the experience thought they were drunk. Is it bad to appear
drunk when the Holy Spirit comes upon you? Scriptural it is not
but many critize those who have experienced the Toronto
blessing.
Spiritual experiences are simply ways that God created for us to
interact with Him and the spiritual realm in general. You can
choose to use them for good of you can choose to use them for
evil. The sooner we stop being afraid of heaven the better off
we will all be.
Blessings,
Justin
#Post#: 4846--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Powers of the World (Age) To Come
By: Kerry Date: May 9, 2013, 11:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi Justin,
Good to see you back posting. I think I agree with your main
point. If I didn't misunderstand you. I believe that the more
clearly people can see the kingdom as it shall be in the future,
and they more they pray, that helps move things forward. The
kingdom comes closer as more people see and pray for it.
About the Toronto Blessing, I have reservations.
[quote author=Justin Mangonel link=topic=509.msg4843#msg4843
date=1368111396]
onsider what happened to the apostles on the day of
Pentecost...it was so "out there" that those who weren't having
the experience thought they were drunk. Is it bad to appear
drunk when the Holy Spirit comes upon you? Scriptural it is not
but many critize those who have experienced the Toronto
blessing. [/quote]
We were just talking about being drunk in the Spirit. I believe
Noah was drunk in the Spirit. That doesn't convince me however
that everything is from God. I have reservations about the
Toronto Blessing.
HTML http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQiK_hMVC2k
[quote]Spiritual experiences are simply ways that God created
for us to interact with Him and the spiritual realm in general.
You can choose to use them for good of you can choose to use
them for evil. The sooner we stop being afraid of heaven the
better off we will all be.[/quote]
Do you think I could find similar ecstatic experiences from
Hindus and other religions? I think I could find some. Not
everything comes from God.
If someone from the Toronto Blessing church had done what Peter
did, so that people of all kinds of languages could understand
him and be converted, I might think the situations were similar.
I also was a little troubled by the minister's quoting the
prophecy of Joel. Peter said that was fulfilled in his day.
Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will
pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your
daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in
those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
How does he explain this? That the "last days" is an era of over
1900 years? That the "last days" started at Pentecost and are
still going? It puzzles me.
#Post#: 4849--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Powers of the World (Age) To Come
By: Justin Mangonel Date: May 9, 2013, 4:11 pm
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Dear Kerry,
Nice to see you again too. I have been overseas for some time
and it is nice to be back home.
Many people have reservations concerning spiritual
manifestations such as seen in the Toronto blessing. I have
personally experienced many of these manifestations+ and, though
a bit disconcerting, then really were quite a blessing. You
really have to trust God to let him do such things with you.
Plus you have to give up your fear of how you will look to
others which is not a bad thing either.
I suppose the question I have is why do people who are in
church, praying for revival, trusting God, and hoping for a
visitation from Him become so fearful when things start
happening. Why do we automatically fear something new when they
are trying to seek something more from God? I would think that
one might assume that whatever was happening was of God since in
happened in God house, where God's ministers are, to God's
believing people. God is a creator and one of His primary
traits is that He is always doing something new so why then are
we so fearful?
I do think the similar ecstatic experiences happen to people
from all different types of religions. Why is this so? It is
because these experiences are not a function of their particular
religion but rather a function of their humanity. Man was
created with the ability to interface with the spiritual realm
in certain ways. Many of these ways appear novel to us simply
because we don't see many people who use or experience them.
Therefore, a Hindu who is experiencing demons may react in a
similar manor to those who are experiencing God simply because
that is how we are programed to do so. However, I would assert
that the average Christian could probably tell the difference.
The ways in which we interface with the Spirit are by and large
neutral. It is the ways in which we use these interfaces that
determine whether or not the results are good or evil.
Concerning your comment about the day of Pentecost I think that
situation makes a lot more sense to us than it did to them
because we have the gift of the scriptures which explain it. On
that day or perhaps for some time after people might have viewed
what happened with a much more critical eye. Remember this was
happening in first century Jerusalem. They were much more
reserved and stoical. I do not know if anyone would have put
two and two together had not Peter stood up and, through
revelation, told them what was really going on. Furthermore,
must we understand everything in order to accept anything? Is
our ability to understand God the measure of if we will accept
God? I think not. We accept Jesus as our personal Lord and
Savior through simple faith without logical proof. Gods says we
must confess our sins, accept His Son's sacrifice, and we will
live forever. We simply say "yes" and receive salvation. I
think that all the best things in God are like that. We simply
accept what He gives us by faith.
Many Pentecostal types believe that a thousand years is as a day
to our Lord. They believe that the time of man and indeed this
creation is going to be somewhere around 7000 years. We are
approaching 6000 years now with 1000 years left of a millennium.
So, they reason, we are in the last days because we have just
over 1 day or 1000 years left before God wraps up this creation,
dissolves it by fire, and creates an New Heavens and New Earth.
That is how the thinking goes anyway.
God bless,
Justin
#Post#: 4851--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Powers of the World (Age) To Come
By: coldwar Date: May 10, 2013, 7:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
"Therefore, a Hindu who is experiencing demons may react in a
similar manor to those who are experiencing God simply because
that is how we are programed to do so."
Same with Christians experiencing demons.
As a "Toronto Blessing Veteran", having been 6 years in this so
called revival between 1994 and 2000, I can relate my
experiences, and how it was messing me up. I started out as a
"devotee" of John Wimber, founder of the Vineyard denomination,
who subsequently denounced and separated Vineyard Churches from
the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship (TACF). Wimber was a
man who was enthusiastic for this kind of renewal, but more-so
with a vision to minister to the poor, and also a man with some
discernment - enough to see that TACF and similar manifesting
churches in Florida and Kansas City were really off the rails.
My own experiences began with the holy laughter, as I saw myself
releasing God from the extremely small box of dispensational
fundamentalism, which was my earlier experience. I quickly arose
with gifts of tongues, and an ability to speak words of
discernment into people's lives, and I must say, that when
ministering in this mode, it was always accompanied by a feeling
of ecstasy such as I had never known before. I became a Vineyard
Elder, small home group leader, and a guitarist - singer in the
worship band. Naturally, it was all very thrilling, and it went
to my head, fed my ego, and I ended up with a reputation for
hitting on young women under the clever disguise of "ministry".
Now I know I shouldn't criticize a whole movement all because I
personally went seriously wrong myself, but I could see the
extreme self-centredness in myself as well as others, as being
not of God.
In the summer of '96, I made the "pilgrimage" to TACF - that's
when my eyes were opened to see how loopy and not of God things
really were there. It was NOT the same kind of thing that was
happening in my local Vineyard congregation back home, but it
was happening in me, and I became very confused. Fortunately,
Wimber made some statements at about that same time, before he
died of cancer in '97 - things that gave me a bit of
perspective, and something real to hang onto, as I wanted to
come out from this confusion.He made it very clear that Vineyard
congregations ought to reject the ministries of John Arnott,
Mike Bickle and others (as an Elder, I was privy to read these
actual letters addressed to all local congregations worldwide),
and he did so by upholding his original primary values of love
for the poor, saying that the TACF phenom was centred on rich
children at play, who had turned completely inwards, with no
regard for Christ's commission to the world. Wimber was hitting
the nail right on the head.
#Post#: 4852--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Powers of the World (Age) To Come
By: Justin Mangonel Date: May 10, 2013, 8:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Dear Cold,
I am sorry to hear that things went askew for you. The ministry
is difficult to say the least. I am curious why people thought
you might be hitting on younger ladies. Was this really because
you were doing that or was it something else you or they felt in
the Spirit? Just curious and not trying to be judgmental in any
way.
Every revival comes and eventually goes. Most of the time people
don't realize when it has left. It starts out well and then as
men take over what God is doing it starts to ebb. As it starts
to dissipate men start to predominate and it becomes a
characacher of what once was real. However, this does not mean
that what started it and happened at first was not a true
visitation of the Holy Spirit. What you say about the leaders
of the movement may be true but it is difficult to tell. You
experience seems to be wrapped up with some problems in the
ministry which may have colored your perception of the whole.
This is spiritual warfare and unfortunately people get hurt but
that does not mean the war is evil. It depends what you are
fighting for and what is accomplished in the end. On the whole
I think the Toronto blessing was a good thing for God's people
and a positive step forward in our journey back tot he garden.
Unfortunately, when God starts to move there is opposition and
some fall during battle.
What I have noticed with pastors and other church leaders is
that people underneath them often mistake their love and care
for natural affection towards them. This is a whole other topic
that I will not go into right now but suffice it to say that
when someone says they were accused of being this or that in
this area I tend to not believe their accusers too quickly.
Often times there is more going on than meets the eye.
Blessings,
Justin
#Post#: 4854--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Powers of the World (Age) To Come
By: coldwar Date: May 10, 2013, 12:29 pm
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"I am curious why people thought you might be hitting on younger
ladies. Was this really because you were doing that or was it
something else you or they felt in the Spirit? Just curious and
not trying to be judgmental in any way. "
I was really doing that, although it never went too far. I was a
lonesome single parent at that time... very needy, and my ego
got very inflated with all that super-spiritual stuff going on,
centred on me. A perfect storm! I did other forms of
manipulation too - more subtle and psychological. I think my
point is, if I was manipulative, what about many others, bigger
names like Todd Bently who are "leading" people through this?
It's all ended for me now, and I'm just as glad. I've been
humbled, am now happily married, ministering in a men's Federal
Prison, with no tongues-speaking, no spirit-ecstasy, no
"prophetic". Even though it happened to me, I really don't know
if it was of God or not, and I've grown beyond it. If it is
indeed something real, I'd like people to know that growing
beyond it is a possibility, and if it is not real, well, people
should grow beyond it ASAP, and move onward and upward.
#Post#: 4858--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Powers of the World (Age) To Come
By: Kerry Date: May 10, 2013, 9:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Justin Mangonel link=topic=509.msg4849#msg4849
date=1368133903]
I suppose the question I have is why do people who are in
church, praying for revival, trusting God, and hoping for a
visitation from Him become so fearful when things start
happening. Why do we automatically fear something new when they
are trying to seek something more from God? I would think that
one might assume that whatever was happening was of God since in
happened in God house, where God's ministers are, to God's
believing people. God is a creator and one of His primary
traits is that He is always doing something new so why then are
we so fearful? [/quote]
Those things don't look "decent and in order to me." I was in
a meeting once where a woman was wriggling on the floor as if
she was having sex with an imaginary being. That also didn't
seem decent to me.
[quote]I do think the similar ecstatic experiences happen to
people from all different types of religions. Why is this so?
It is because these experiences are not a function of their
particular religion but rather a function of their humanity. Man
was created with the ability to interface with the spiritual
realm in certain ways. Many of these ways appear novel to us
simply because we don't see many people who use or experience
them. Therefore, a Hindu who is experiencing demons may react
in a similar manor to those who are experiencing God simply
because that is how we are programed to do so. However, I would
assert that the average Christian could probably tell the
difference. The ways in which we interface with the Spirit are
by and large neutral. It is the ways in which we use these
interfaces that determine whether or not the results are good or
evil. [/quote]If any religion can have such experiences,
shouldn't we doubt if this kind of thing should be taken as
coming from God? How can we be sure demons aren't being passed
along in some churches?
[quote]Concerning your comment about the day of Pentecost I
think that situation makes a lot more sense to us than it did to
them because we have the gift of the scriptures which explain
it. On that day or perhaps for some time after people might
have viewed what happened with a much more critical eye.
Remember this was happening in first century Jerusalem. They
were much more reserved and stoical. I do not know if anyone
would have put two and two together had not Peter stood up and,
through revelation, told them what was really going on.
Furthermore, must we understand everything in order to accept
anything? Is our ability to understand God the measure of if we
will accept God? I think not. We accept Jesus as our personal
Lord and Savior through simple faith without logical proof.
Gods says we must confess our sins, accept His Son's sacrifice,
and we will live forever. We simply say "yes" and receive
salvation. I think that all the best things in God are like
that. We simply accept what He gives us by faith. [/quote]
We may not need to understand everything; but I don't the
solution is operating out of emotions. Peter did tell them and
us.
[quote]Many Pentecostal types believe that a thousand years is
as a day to our Lord. They believe that the time of man and
indeed this creation is going to be somewhere around 7000 years.
We are approaching 6000 years now with 1000 years left of a
millennium. So, they reason, we are in the last days because we
have just over 1 day or 1000 years left before God wraps up this
creation, dissolves it by fire, and creates an New Heavens and
New Earth. That is how the thinking goes anyway. [/quote]But
Peter said they were in the last days then. I believe they
were in the last days of that age or world. It was about to
pass away. I think it did pass away as promised. So why, if
Joel's prophecy was fulfilled then, take it and say it will
apply to us too? Perhaps sometime similar will happen again,
perhaps not.
Isaiah talked about the heavens and earth being created new too.
I don't think it means what many people think.
Then there are people who say the end of the age didn't come as
predicted. They say the last days will take thousands of years.
That is impossible for me to believe since Jesus said there
were some standing there who would see it. I could produce
probably 10, maybe more passages, which conflict with this idea.
#Post#: 4859--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Powers of the World (Age) To Come
By: Justin Mangonel Date: May 11, 2013, 9:11 am
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Dear Kerry,
Why are you so skeptical?
Blessings,
Justin
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