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#Post#: 4620--------------------------------------------------
What is a Christian
By: George Date: April 24, 2013, 10:43 am
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We as humans are always labeling things or groups of people
animals what have you. Now in order to fit a label there are
certain requirements one must meet in order to be called that
particular label. For instance if I say So n So is an African
American, That is a label and it would be understood that in
order to fit this label I am referring to a brown skin person
who's family origin may be traced back to Africa. One wouldn't
fit the bill or label if they were say blond hair blue eyes fair
skin from Europe. They wouldn't be an African American and could
never be labeled so or never would someone relate them to the
title African American.
Another example would be the Pit Bull! My favorite breed of
dogs. This title Pit Bull actually referred to a mixed bred dog
that was proven in a pit to be a killer, to have that instinct
and to love to kill any animal put in its way in the pit. Now
this label has been adopted by breeders to label a certain look
of the dog and no longer refers to the actual heart of the dog
or instinct to kill. Now true breeders of the breed Pit Bull
take offense when the show breeder calls his dog a Pit Bull yet
it has never been proven. So it is actually a Pet Bull if you
would like to say. point being that when people take a label and
change the requirements to fit that label then the original
label is tarnished and people take offense.
This brings me to my point of the thread. Christian is a label
and requires certain requirements to be considered a Christian
by the original for founders of Christendom. To clarify more
precisely what a Christian is you have the council of nicea set
creeds, dogmas, fundamental beliefs, that One believes in order
to be a Christian. Then at some point there were those who
disagreed with what one must believe and protested against "The
Church" later called the protestant movement. So these people no
longer agreed with what it was to be a Christian and changed
beliefs rather than title. then along came the next denomination
who disagreed and had there own beliefs; but yet again they
don't change the title rather they change the requirements. So
who is the true Christian?
I am often accused of trying to undermine Christianity. When I
think about how each person seems to have there own
understanding and there own beliefs why hold on to the title? Is
not everyone undermining Christendom when they choose not to
agree or believe in the original doctrine and dogma which was
set in place to describe a Christian? So often you here Yes I am
a Christian; But I don't believe in that, Or I don't believe in
this, Or I don't agree with another thing. Well then what makes
you a Christian if you don't believe in the original doctrine
and dogma of "The Church" claimed to be traced back to an
original teacher of the Christian Movement. What is different in
that and saying well I am a Christian and there is but One God
and Allah is his name and I bare witness that Mohamed is his
true and final messenger. Can I still be considered a Christian
by its original meaning? Of course not.
So while there are those who like to accuse there fellow
brethren of trying to undermine Christendom I ask Who other than
the die hard Catholic who stick to the teachings of "The
Church"(The foundation of Christendom) to be revelation from God
himself, doesn't undermine the label Christian?
I am a Christian; But I know better than them old Christians and
I believe this way appose to the way of the Foundation of
Christendom? But no worries I am a Christian!
Doesn't make sense to me. But hey lets go along to get along. We
can just change what it means, the requirements of belief in
order to be called Christian. We will change that and keep the
title Christian so we don't look like blasphemous sinners? As
long as we call ourselves Christian then we will be saved? Its
not about the belief anymore than a comfortable title. To feel
safe under a title that starts with Christ. Because Jesus is the
only way, no man comes to the father but by him. Even if we
don't follow or believe what is claimed to be taught by him. We
will claim to be Christian and maybe we will fool God into
believing we are Christians. As if God cares what title you call
yourself?
#Post#: 4621--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is a Christian
By: George Date: April 24, 2013, 10:59 am
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[center]Matthew 7:22-23
King James Version (KJV)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart
from me, ye that work iniquity.[/center]
Let us not forget the scripture that says in that day Jesus will
profess unto them. Them being who? Christians by definition of
the title. Not Buddhist not Muslims, not even Atheist; but those
who prophesied in Jesus name calling themselves Christians while
being no more than a hypocrite.
#Post#: 4623--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is a Christian
By: coldwar Date: April 24, 2013, 1:02 pm
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I can provide you with a definition of what a Christian is, but
I know from your questions that you are seeking far more than
that. It's NOT the same thing as saying you're African-American,
precisely because it is defined by belief, not skin colour.
So here goes - "A Christian is a person who believes in, and
more importantly seeks to love and follow in the sayings of
his/her founder, Jesus Christ, especially in the sayings
surrounding the sacrifice of his own life to reconcile the world
to God the Father."
But, because belief must come before obedience, then Christians
are of necessity defined by belief, with obedience being a proof
of that belief. Therefore, I must add those beliefs to the
answer. At the most basic level, Christians believe in a
completed form of Judaism whereby God became a man, taught in
the Synagogues of his own people, as well as to some of the
surrounding non-Jewish people, gave substance to his teachings
by performing certain miracles which in their own way,
specifically proved that he was indeed the Creator God, lived
his life without sinning, and thereby offered himself as a
worthy sin offering, not only for his own Nation, but for the
whole world. Sin, and the atoning sin offering are absolutely
key to Christian belief. It is also essential that Christians
believe in a resurrection from the dead, and that Christ is the
enabler of that resurrection. Eternal life for the Christian
will be lived out from age to age in a resurrection body which
is no longer subject to sin, sickness, ageing or death.
I think every denomination and sect of Christianity believe in
these most basic things, with the exception of Calvinists who do
not believe that the sin offering of Christ was made for the
whole world, in spite of the fact that the bible clearly says it
was. This is the only major deviation from these basic, most
essential beliefs I'm aware of, and I'm not sure if this in fact
suggests that Calvinists aren't really Christians. So with this
one exception, all Christians - Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants
and Evangelicals, all believe in the same basic things. However,
I am not going to suggest that anybody who DOES NOT believe in
one or more of these points is not a Christian (for example, one
may not believe in the resurrection - and although all of the
major groups of Christians I just named do in fact hold dear to
the resurrection, I would not judge an individual who does not
believe this way). Variations in belief occur in the realm of
non-essentials that define the sects and denominations, and not
Christianity itself.
But, in reading between the lines of your O.P. I think you are
troubled by the fact that Christians are in fact defined by
belief, and even further, one is not reconciled to God unless
one in fact holds to this system of belief. I too, am troubled
by this very thing. For what if one lives a life of goodness,
THROUGH obedience to Conscience, but not belief in Christ (such
as a good Muslim, a good Hindu, a good Jew or even a good
Atheist), then are such good people not reconciled to God
because they don't believe in Christ? The Evangelicals say "the
only unpardonable sin is to not believe in Christ" - I'm not
sure that I believe that - it's very difficult, especially when
the penalty of sin and unbelief is eternal death or hell -
whatever your point of view. God clearly does not want this
either, as "He is not willing that any will perish". Yet most
Christians believe in the eternal destruction of non-believers,
in one form or another, and that in spite of Christ's atoning
sacrifice for the sins of the whole world, most Christians still
believe that very few will actually be saved. Then, there are
many (a minority) who believe otherwise - that the blood
sacrifice that Christ made actually took away the sin of the
whole world (as John the Baptist proclaimed), and that because
of this, all will be saved, though may have to endure a purging
from their own personal sins if they die without Christ.
#Post#: 4630--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is a Christian
By: George Date: April 24, 2013, 5:31 pm
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Coldwar, thanks for taking the time to give an honest reply. So
you can see my point that there is such a wide variance in what
describes a Christian. Even the most fundamental aspects such as
Jesus is God incarnate. There are many proclaimed Christians who
do not believe Jesus is God incarnate. I understand that you
wouldn't judge a person because of variance in belief in one or
two things, even the most fundamental things. But you said these
are the essential beliefs in Christianity. So If one doesn't
believe in the essential things are they truly a Christian by
definition of the word according to "The Church"
I had a feeling I would here being labeled Christian is
different than being labeled African American because it has
nothing to do with race or color of skin which is why I gave the
second example of a Pit Bull. Some may wonder why would someones
favorite dog be one that has the instinct to kill? Well back in
the old days when man battled the wild a good dog who was loyal
would never harm the family but would defend its family to the
death against any other animals. But they were loyal to the
family. If the dog bit a human it was killed on the spot and not
considered a true healthy Pit Bull. Reason being they are bred
to be loyal to humans. Truly mans best friend. So without
meeting all requirements it can not be labeled a true Pit Bull.
Likewise if a proclaimed Christian doesn't believe the essential
dogmas or doctrine of Christianity how can they truly be
considered a Christian? Or what really confuses me is how does
one then condemn or accuse another for trying to undermine
Christianity?
My feelings are that to be labeled a Christian is irrelevant. I
can't know what God thinks on the issue but I fail to believe he
cares what one labels themselves. It is about actions and not
talk, anyone can proclaim to be anything they want, That doesn't
make it true.
I guess there is just that much flexibility in the definition of
Christian that it covers a wide range of different beliefs.
Which would mean that the title in itself hold very little
meaning.
#Post#: 4635--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is a Christian
By: Mike Date: April 25, 2013, 12:29 am
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[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=476.msg4611#msg4611
date=1366779502]
Without evidence or proof I am reluctant to decide truth.
There is as much evidence of a god named Ra as there is in the
God of Abraham.
Christ consciousness is as much of a human invention as Jesus
Christ the man.
[/quote]
[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=481.msg4620#msg4620
date=1366818229]
My point of this thread is that Christian is a label and
requires certain requirements to be considered a Christian by
the original for founders of Christendom. To clarify more
precisely what a Christian is you have the creeds set by the
Council of Nicea, dogmas, and fundamental beliefs that one
believes in order to be a Christian. Then at some point there
were those who disagreed with what one must believe and
protested against "The Church" later called the protestant
movement. So these people no longer agreed with what it was to
be a Christian and changed beliefs rather than title. then along
came the next denomination who disagreed and had there own
beliefs; but yet again they don't change the title rather they
change the requirements. So who is the true Christian?
I am often accused of trying to undermine Christianity. (my
emboldening)
[/quote]
I am wondering if “logic/evidence,/proof” is really a conclusive
argument against “belief/faith” or whether in fact each are
opposite ends of the one mind set, with a dividing line that
varies with the progress of ‘knowledge’.
Much that centuries ago was regarded as proof, has since been
disproved, and much that centuries ago was regarded as faith,
has since been re-pitched.
Also much that is regarded by those with ‘scientific knowledge’
as being proved at any point of time is accepted in ‘faith’ by
those without the relevant ‘knowledge’.
And then of course, as soon as better ‘knowledge’ becomes
available, the boundaries change both for those who believed
that particular thing on the basis of ‘scientific knowledge’,
and for those who believed it on the basis of ‘faith’.
Is it not a greater wisdom to allow for the possibility of a
complete range from ‘proof’ through to ‘faith’ rather that to
set a dividing line and place everyone one side or the other,
and rant against those on the opposite side to where you place
yourself?
Regardless of the exact position of the dividing line George
(and many others like him) place themselves firmly on the side
of “logic/evidence/proof” and Christians on the side of
‘faith/belief’, and rant against it as if nothing can possibly
exist that cannot be supported by “logic/evidence/proof”.
For my part I believe that there is more to life than things
which can be proved (or experienced by touch, smell, taste,
sight, or hearing) and ‘Christians’ do not have to agree to any
defined degree in order to share that conviction/hope.
The same probably applies to believers in all other ‘faiths’
apart from ‘Christians’, but most will believe in the figurehead
after which their ‘faith’ is named.
“Christ consciousness is as much of a human invention as is
Jesus Christ the man” is a ‘rant’ that even ‘proof only’
historians would not support (in respect of “Jesus Christ the
man”)
#Post#: 4637--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is a Christian
By: George Date: April 25, 2013, 1:34 am
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[quote author=Mike link=topic=481.msg4635#msg4635
date=1366867772]
“Christ consciousness is as much of a human invention as is
Jesus Christ the man” is a ‘rant’ that even ‘proof only’
historians would not support (in respect of “Jesus Christ the
man”)
[/quote]
There was never a man named Jesus Christ. I don't think you will
find many historians to claim proof of such. For starters Christ
isn't a name at all rather a title that originated from the word
Christos which simply means anointed. Jesus is also incorrect in
that there was no "J" in Hebrew or Aramaic language. The letter
"J" was introduced later when the religion was Latinized. The
Church tried to get away from the Jewish names by adding J's
where there were no J's there was no Jonah, Joseph, Jacob or
Jesus.
Now it is not my stance that there is no evidence of the
Character we know as Jesus Christ. If you read my post to say I
believe that Jesus was not a real person you misunderstood what
I was saying. There are even Agnostic historians that believe in
Jesus. Who claim that there is proof out side of the bible in
other writings of antiquity to support that there was a man who
we now refer to as Jesus.
You will be hard set to find a single historian that will claim
proof of the Jesus Christ of the bible who was born of a virgin
was crucified and resurrected in three days, or that he was the
only begotten Son of God. These things cannot be proven. So
while it is true that there are historians who say that there is
proof of a Jewish man that we refer to as Jesus none will agree
that there is proof that he was who the bible says he was. Or
portrays him to be.
#Post#: 4638--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is a Christian
By: coldwar Date: April 25, 2013, 5:19 am
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"Coldwar, thanks for taking the time to give an honest reply. So
you can see my point that there is such a wide variance in what
describes a Christian. Even the most fundamental aspects such as
Jesus is God incarnate. There are many proclaimed Christians who
do not believe Jesus is God incarnate. I understand that you
wouldn't judge a person because of variance in belief in one or
two things, even the most fundamental things. But you said these
are the essential beliefs in Christianity. So If one doesn't
believe in the essential things are they truly a Christian by
definition of the word according to "The Church""
It is these few things I said which are essential because they
are are believed by the vast majority of Christians, whether
they are Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant or Evangelical. Let's
call it the 80/20, because on the whole, 20% of adherents might
choose to not agree upon 1 or more of these few points, but the
80% who do believe in them defines our unity of belief.
But there is another dimension I did not mention, but should
have. As it is with your Pit Bull, there are also defining
characteristics of a Christian that go beyond our mere beliefs.
You have Dog >> Pit Bull, and then you have Human >> Christian.
There is an essence that defines Christians by who we are,
distinct from other Humans, just as there is an essence of Pit
Bull that distinguishes it from other dogs. That essence
includes the specified 80/20 belief system, but goes beyond it
also. It is the Mystical part of "What is a Christian". It is
the inner transformation of heart and soul that begins with a
conversion, and continues to be worked out throughout a
lifetime. Sometimes it is difficult to see. Other times it is so
readily seen that it is used by some to judge between the true
and the false, although it ought not be so - that judgment
belongs to God alone. But I'lll give you one example of what it
is - keep in mind there are many other examples, but the one
I'll give you is "power over addictions". As a Christian, I've
ministered a lot among addicted people, and I've seen too many
people delivered from drugs, gambling and alcohol by Christ to
be coincidental. These are people who've often tried every human
means of quitting, but to no avail, but when they are converted
to Christ, they are miraculously delivered for a lifetime. It is
something that I cannot account for other than the power of God
and a very real Spiritual transformation. I've not seen much in
the way of healing from disease - people with Cancer or MS might
get converted, but not healed, and this I find quite puzzling;
but very frequently, people who are addicted get delivered
quickly and permanently.
So, Christians are defined by a core set of beliefs, and an
inner transformation that comes from God.
#Post#: 4639--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is a Christian
By: Kerry Date: April 25, 2013, 8:09 am
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"Christ" means annointed. Anyone who was annointed may be
called christos or messiah, although as a rule those words are
reserved for Jesus since he was the person who brought a
specific annointing down from Heaven.
I have talked elsewhere about the levels of awareness. In
physics, we see quarks, protons and electrons, then atoms, then
molecules, then proteins, then cells, then organs, then bodies.
Each of these has its own sort of awareness.
There are levels of awareness in Heaven also if we can believe
the Bible which says there are three witnesses in Heaven; but
let us not talk about those. Rather let us talk about a defect
in mankind. There is a "missing" level of awareness in the
human species. The awareness of mankind, blinded by the spirit
of the antichrist (meaning "instead of christ), cannot engage
the higher levels of awareness.
You can also think of all life in the universe as a tree,
branching out, rebranching again and again. We are like twigs
that fell off the tree and need to be reconnected again.
If the Christ awareness or Christ Spirit fills a person, that
person connects to the levels above. Like grapes on a vine.
Thus Jesus called himself "the Vine." Thus too we read about
the "Tree of Life." A person resembles a tree by himself since
there are many levels branching and subbranching in each person;
this is like a branch of a tree which by itself has branches,
twigs, leaves, etc., resembling a tree.
Each person is also meant to be connected to the Tree of Life
which covers the world.
I say a Christian is someone who has received the correct
awareness or spirit which connects man on the earth with the
Heavenly realms. The receipt of the Holy Spirit varies; but
someone who receives it in full has access to any information
anywhere in the universe . . . if he needs to know it. All
truth is at his disposal. . . as long as it's profitable for
him.
The ordinary procedure for receiving the Spirit of Christ is
through baptism when someone already connected to the Tree of
Life introduces someone else into the same Tree. You could also
say that a member of the Body of Christ attaches, by guidance of
and agreement with the Head of the Body, another person into the
same Body. That rule is not iron-clad. There are exceptions.
There are other ways to receive the Holy Spirit; but the most
reliable one is by having someone who is holy and filled with
the Holy Spirit himself speak the words that forms the bond
between the Body of Christ and the new member.
There are exceptions, but I wouldn't rely on them. The person
who is unwilling to submit himself to another human being in
order to join the Body of Christ is not thinking right. He
wants a one-to-one relationship with Jesus while ignoring the
other members of the Body. If the motive is selfish, such a
person cannot receive the Holy Spirit under any conditions.
I say note it well. Jesus never baptized anyone himself
personally. He had his disciples do it. I know people talk
about a "personal relationship with Jesus" as meaning they are
Christians; but I can't see how someone could have a
relationship with Jesus while rejecting the other members of the
Body. Where would they attach? To Jesus the Head? That is
aiming too high if you ask me. Thus I teach that to become a
Christian and receive the Holy Spirit, one must be prepared to
love his neighbor, even submitting to him to be received into
the Body. How can he say loves God if he hates his neighbor?
How can he say he has a relationship with the Head of the Body
and not with the other members? Thus the wisdom of having
someone submit to another person in order to be baptized and
receive the Holy Spirit.
Are all baptisms valid? I would guess not. Some seem to be
receive a demonic spirit when baptized by a demonic person.
This can happen if the heart's motive is impure when requesting
baptism. Put his impure heart together with the impure heart of
fake Christian doing the baptism, and you can get a demon being
passed along.
While it is true that anyone (even a non-Christian) can baptize
another person in dire cases, I think it best to look for
someone whose life shows the fruit of the Spirit. He can speak
the words which will engraft the baptized person into the Body
of Christ.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,
longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Without the proper level of awareness, the Christ Spirit, man is
like grass of the field which withers away. He can grow only so
high and then he will pass away. The person connected to Heaven
through the Holy Spirit can grow to be a tree himself in which
the "birds" find refuge.
#Post#: 4647--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is a Christian
By: Mike Date: April 25, 2013, 11:43 am
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[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=481.msg4637#msg4637
date=1366871664]
You will be hard set to find a single historian that will claim
proof of the Jesus Christ of the bible who was born of a virgin
was crucified and resurrected in three days, or that he was the
only begotten Son of God. These things cannot be proven. So
while it is true that there are historians who say that there is
proof of a Jewish man that we refer to as Jesus none will agree
that there is proof that he was who the bible says he was. Or
portrays him to be.
[/quote]
Of course matters of 'faith' "cannot be proven", it would be a
contradiction of terms if they could.
It's your choice George ..... but why go to such enormous
lengths to keep telling that to members of Christian forums
(T2O, CF&FF, and now here) if not to satisfy that embittered
chip on your shoulder?
I think the way you first packaged it as "Searching for Truth"
was wholly dishonest and I will say again exactly what I said
when I first encountered you.
And that is that, whether or not it was by deliberate intent,
you could not have made a better job of undermining the
Christian 'Faith' if you had been an Atheist hellbent on trying
to do so.
Tell me, how many have you managed to divert away from
Christianity so far?
#Post#: 4649--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is a Christian
By: Kerry Date: April 25, 2013, 11:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mike link=topic=481.msg4647#msg4647
date=1366908187]
Tell me, how many have you managed to divert away from
Christianity so far?[/quote]
Someone who could get diverted by George or anyone else isn't
very well grounded to begin with. If Christianity could survive
Nero, what should we worry about? Are we that soft? Or do
you just feel like griping about something? Are you allowing
George to shake you?
I don' t know what kind of "proof" George wants, and I don't
care. I doubt he'll ever get it though. I can say if I were
God, I wouldn't give him the kind of proof it looks as if he
wants.
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