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#Post#: 4483--------------------------------------------------
Catch 22
By: George Date: April 10, 2013, 2:12 pm
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[center]John 14:12
King James Version (KJV)
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the
works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these
shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Romans 10:9-10
King James Version (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and
shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the
dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with
the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Mark 16:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth not shall be damned.
John 20:29
King James Version (KJV)
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou
hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have
believed.
[/center]
It is my understanding that in order for salvation one must
truly believe. Believe in God, believe in Jesus Christ, believe
Jesus was crucified and resurrected on the third day, just to
name a few thing that are required to believe. Here is the catch
22, What is it to truly believe? Does that mean that you have
truly convinced yourself that you know the unknown to be an
absolute truth without any evidence other than old writings from
over 1500 years ago? It would almost seem as if one could not
truly believe without undeniable evidence of what it is that
they believe in. There were many people who met Jesus and seen
his miraculous wonders, and heard the great news, and even
knowing the man seeing with there own eyes, they still did not
believe. His own disciples did not believe, until they seen him
with there own eyes, touched him, watched him eat, They did not
believe. Thomas would not believe and said he would not believe
unless he seen it with his own eyes. Yet we are to truly
believe? In a way that would seem to be lying to oneself to say
they truly believe in certain things. If there is no physical
evidence how can you truly believe? Without first hand
experience how can you truly believe?
[center]Matthew 17:20
King James Version (KJV)
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for
verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard
seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder
place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto
you. [/center]
Here Jesus is quoted saying "If ye have faith as a grain of
mustard seed," I would say at most that is about all the faith
you can have in something not known with no physical evidence or
first hand experience. Faith as a grain of mustard seed which in
that time was thought to be the absolute smallest seed in the
world, Is that truly believing? How does one even weigh belief?
Either you believe or you don't. You may say I might believe
you; but you will have to prove to me first. Again there is the
need for physical evidence, first hand experience.
Basically how can one truly believe in something that they have
absolutely no real honest answers to? Such as Heaven or hell or
an afterlife, Or that there will be a "New Earth" and all who
"Truly Believed" will inherit this Earth and live forever in
peaceful bliss and happiness?
#Post#: 4491--------------------------------------------------
Re: Catch 22
By: Kerry Date: April 11, 2013, 8:19 am
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[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=469.msg4483#msg4483
date=1365621173]
Basically how can one truly believe in something that they have
absolutely no real honest answers to? Such as Heaven or hell or
an afterlife, Or that there will be a "New Earth" and all who
"Truly Believed" will inherit this Earth and live forever in
peaceful bliss and happiness?[/quote]If people lack answers, let
them go find them.
If one is has "no real answers," that should tell him that
maybe:
1. There are no real answers
2. He's looking in the wrong places
3. He's using the wrong methods to look
4. He's found some answers but doesn't know it
5. He doesn't want to see any real answers
#Post#: 4495--------------------------------------------------
Re: Catch 22
By: thelowlyfisherman Date: April 12, 2013, 8:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Faith is acting on what you have professed to believe. Abraham
confessed that he believed what God told him, but, he had to
leave his father-in-law, Jethro, and start the journey God laid
before him in order for the fulfillment to come.
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who
comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder
of those who seek Him.
If you really believe that God is, and what He said, that
requires action. You have to begin to behave as though you
believe that He is real and that what He said is true and live
(abide) in that truth.
Not that I am anyone that should be emulated, but, one thing I
do right is, I talk to Father all the time. Even about things
that you really should not talk to someone so Holy about. I have
found that He can handle it. Its not like He doesn't know about
it anyway. There was a time that when I wanted to sin, I would
pretend He wasn't there. It is much harder (not impossible,
unfortunately for me) to sin when you are practiced at keeping
Him ever present in your life.
When you do this, there will come a day, that you will lose all
doubt of His existence.
How would you like to be called Son by the richest man on earth?
I'll go you one better. I'm called Son by the guy that owns the
earth.
#Post#: 4505--------------------------------------------------
Re: Catch 22
By: Kerry Date: April 15, 2013, 6:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=469.msg4483#msg4483
date=1365621173]
Here Jesus is quoted saying "If ye have faith as a grain of
mustard seed," I would say at most that is about all the faith
you can have in something not known with no physical evidence or
first hand experience. Faith as a grain of mustard seed which in
that time was thought to be the absolute smallest seed in the
world, Is that truly believing? How does one even weigh belief?
Either you believe or you don't. You may say I might believe
you; but you will have to prove to me first. Again there is the
need for physical evidence, first hand experience.
[/quote]If you are lined up right, you can perceive spiritual
reality. If you aren't lined up right, odds are you will think
all you are is a mass of electrons, protons and neutrons.
What are you? Are you that physical body, or are you a
non-physical being that is using that body as a vehicle?
If you cannot perceive how you are a non-physical being or sense
it, you are missing something so obvious that the only way to
miss it is to be spiritually blind and deaf. How could you
perceive anything about God if you can't first perceive
something about yourself?
So how big are you? Answer: There is no answer. You can be as
little as you like and you can be as big as you like. However
when spirits incarnate with physical bodies, they project a
tiny non-physical entity into time and space. It's smaller than
a seed of mustard. It is also like a tiny salt crystal --
indeed its purpose is to grow the way a salt crystal can grow if
dropped into a supersaturated solution of salt water. How it
relates to the physical body is complicated, of course.
Now if this "seed" forgets it spiritual nature -- and it can,
often it does by abusing others and being abused by others -- it
can be brought back to awareness. If it's lined up right.
Just the way an electron has to be lined up right to absorb a
photon. A being who is aware spiritually imparts this
"spiritual light."
I'd also say it's a waste of time -- as a rule -- for the
spiritually blind and deaf to be seeking "God" on their own.
It's not going to happen. They will fall into delusion, perhaps
deeper spiritual blindness. For one thing, this person is not
prepared to receive Divine Light directly from God. It could
fry him.
You can also compare the situation to an object that can vibrate
at a lower rate of vibrations per second trying to communicate
with another object vibrating a million times faster. It
won't make sense.
Indeed you can see how this works studying emotions. Someone
who is truly depressed won't relate to someone enjoying life
enthusiastically; and the person in enthusiasm doesn't really
relate to the depressed person. For them to communicate,
either one has to go up or the other has to come down.
You can also study physics. A molecule of water in one of your
cells relates two ways -- directly to the liquid of other
molecules around it and also there internal communication -- the
molecule is composed of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen.
You can say, if you like, that the molecule has a "conscious"
awareness of being a molecule -- but it is connected below by an
awareness you could call the subconscious. And there is a
level of awareness above governing its interactions with other
molecules -- we could call that its superconscious.
To the individual atom, things look different. The atom is
aware of itself as its "conscious" level. How it fits into the
molecular world is its superconscious; and how it is composed of
electrons, protons and neutrons is its subconcious.
Thus there are levels and more levels of awareness. Even the
solar system is built this way. Generally speaking, you have a
"big thing" at the center not moving much and a "little thing"
spinning about it rapidly.
Can an electron relate to the sun? Understand how the sun is at
the center of the universe with planets going about it? I doubt
it. I also doubt the sun would be aware of every electron in
the universe. Yet! An electron on the sun can emit a photon
that can be absorbed by any other electron n the universe . . .
if it's lined up right.
So the ordinary procedure on this earth is for the unaware
person to receive Light from an aware one. And the unaware
person cannot receive Light unless he's lined up right; and if
he is lined up right, he will be "drawn." The faith needed
will be given to him. You can't summon faith up on your own.
What you can do is try to position yourself better -- and I
think that means abandoning many ideas.
Still there are exercises that may be useful. Here's one.
Ask yourself, "What is God?" Then, no matter what answer arises
in your mind, look for the error in it. If you try hard
enough, I think you should be able to find flaws in any ideas
about God. Some ideas may be generally right, but they'll
still be inexact or wrong somehow. When you find the error in
the definition, dismiss it by saying, "That's not it." Then
proceed to look for another definition or statement about God to
look at.
What is the purpose of this? To free the mind of clutter -- of
fake ideas of pretended knowledge about God. Stripping those
away is useful.
#Post#: 4509--------------------------------------------------
Re: Catch 22
By: Kerry Date: April 15, 2013, 4:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Could anyone believe me if I said self is an illusion? In a
way, only God exists. We are only projections of His Mind into
time and space. Thus the Hindus say that Brahma goes to sleep
and dreams the universe into being.
Well, what would you do if you were God and found yourself as
the "only being" in existence? I know what I would do: Invent
characters and things so something could happen.
Hence the need for space. "I" am "here" and "you" are there.
Space is a consideration that makes "the other" possible.
"Time" is the consideration that a "thing" will persist. And
change.
The "truth" is that things do not persist or move through space.
They disappear and reappear. This is accomplished by the
continuing Will of God to have things continue to exist.
However since we are projections of God into time and space,
this is not done personally by God but by us. Some of the
ancients called the "sounds" by which this was done the "music
of the spheres." We humans tend to panic if we think something
"just vanished." We don't believe it's possible, and we get
anxious if something like that happens or if we think it might
happen. We are also anxious about disappearing ourselves. What
would happen if we simply vanished? Went out of existence? So a
lot of our spiritual effort to project reality is taken up with
trying to make sure we don't disappear ourselves.
Matter is odd stuff. Matter appears so solid; but there is a
reason it's that way. What happens when two godlike beings
project opposing realities into the same time and space? You
have a collision of projected images, that's what. The two
collide and produce a dark mass.
In the spiritual world, where spirits do not quarrel so by
projecting disagreeing realities into the same space, objects
are much easier to manage. Since you are projecting them
mentally, you can make them vanish if you like or make objects
appear. Or you can make them "appear to move" by disappearing
in one location and appearing in another.
In this world, we have sunk so low we believe we can't affect
things. Physical objects can overwhelm us. Our bodies get sick
and die, and we're unable to stop it. In short, matter appears
more powerful than spirit. If the godlike particle then says,
"Matter is bigger and more powerful than I am -- I wish I were
matter," he can become matter. It's a lie, but it's a powerful
lie. He's fallen where Paul talked about -- worshiping the
created.
And every bit of this is the result of conflicts among spirits,
trying to control a space and what reality to project in it.
Thus the biggest obstacle to liberation is trying to control
others -- trying to impose "my" reality on everyone else. It
surely isn't obeyng the Golden Rule. If anyone could obey the
Golden Rule 100%, he would surely be "liberated."
#Post#: 4512--------------------------------------------------
Re: Catch 22
By: George Date: April 15, 2013, 9:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=469.msg4509#msg4509
date=1366061490]
Could anyone believe me if I said self is an illusion?
[/quote]
I would disagree. I would say self perceptions at times may be
an illusion/delusion
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=469.msg4509#msg4509
date=1366061490]
In a way, only God exists. We are only projections of His Mind
into time and space.
[/quote]
Wouldn't this mean God's mind is both Good and Evil? He is both
God and Satan?
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=469.msg4509#msg4509
date=1366061490]
Thus the Hindus say that Brahma goes to sleep and dreams the
universe into being.
[/quote]
So when Brahma wakes up will the universe go out of existence
such as our dreams?
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=469.msg4509#msg4509
date=1366061490]
Well, what would you do if you were God and found yourself as
the "only being" in existence?
[/quote]
Wonder how I got there, and why there is nothing else, what am I
supposed to do? etc. etc.
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=469.msg4509#msg4509
date=1366061490]
I know what I would do: Invent characters and things so
something could happen.
[/quote]
Couldn't that be seen as making yourself some toys to amuse
yourself with?
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=469.msg4509#msg4509
date=1366061490]
Hence the need for space. "I" am "here" and "you" are there.
Space is a consideration that makes "the other" possible.
"Time" is the consideration that a "thing" will persist. And
change.
The "truth" is that things do not persist or move through space.
They disappear and reappear. This is accomplished by the
continuing Will of God to have things continue to exist.
However since we are projections of God into time and space,
this is not done personally by God but by us. Some of the
ancients called the "sounds" by which this was done the "music
of the spheres." We humans tend to panic if we think something
"just vanished." We don't believe it's possible, and we get
anxious if something like that happens or if we think it might
happen. We are also anxious about disappearing ourselves. What
would happen if we simply vanished? Went out of existence? So a
lot of our spiritual effort to project reality is taken up with
trying to make sure we don't disappear ourselves.
Matter is odd stuff. Matter appears so solid; but there is a
reason it's that way. What happens when two godlike beings
project opposing realities into the same time and space? You
have a collision of projected images, that's what. The two
collide and produce a dark mass.
In the spiritual world, where spirits do not quarrel so by
projecting disagreeing realities into the same space, objects
are much easier to manage. Since you are projecting them
mentally, you can make them vanish if you like or make objects
appear. Or you can make them "appear to move" by disappearing
in one location and appearing in another.
In this world, we have sunk so low we believe we can't affect
things. Physical objects can overwhelm us. Our bodies get sick
and die, and we're unable to stop it. In short, matter appears
more powerful than spirit. If the godlike particle then says,
"Matter is bigger and more powerful than I am -- I wish I were
matter," he can become matter. It's a lie, but it's a powerful
lie. He's fallen where Paul talked about -- worshiping the
created.
And every bit of this is the result of conflicts among spirits,
trying to control a space and what reality to project in it.
Thus the biggest obstacle to liberation is trying to control
others -- trying to impose "my" reality on everyone else. It
surely isn't obeyng the Golden Rule.
[/quote]
Interesting!
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=469.msg4509#msg4509
date=1366061490]
If anyone could obey the Golden Rule 100%, he would surely be
"liberated."
[/quote]
Would you say one needs God in order to obey the Golden Rule
100%?
#Post#: 4513--------------------------------------------------
Re: Catch 22
By: Kerry Date: April 16, 2013, 7:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]I would disagree. I would say self perceptions at times
may be an illusion/delusion [/quote]Provide one definition of
"self" that is independent of all other reality. If you say, "I
am a husband," you are really telling me about a relationship
with reality -- you are playing the role of husband and someone
else is playing the role of wife. Without the wife, you
wouldn't be a husband.
Are you a fireman? If you say yes, I ask if you could be a
fireman without fires to fight?
Anything you can put after "I am" is a condition. Conditions
change. If a baby says, "I am a baby," is that really the
"essential self" -- he is a baby eternally because that's his
basic identity? Of course not.
So I say there is nothing that can really define anyone. We
appear to be "little bits of nothing" that can pretend to be
anything.
God said His Name was "I am that I am." Others say it is, "I
will be what I will be." What does that mean? What is "pure
being" without conditions?
What can be said about "self" that doesn't involve "the other"?
[quote]Wouldn't this mean God's mind is both Good and Evil? He
is both God and Satan?[/quote]It would mean that everything is
an illusion. Then I put the choice to you: Do you want to have
fun with the illusions, or do you want to believe you are
trapped by them and "imagine" you are suffering? If there is a
tragedy in the universe, it's taking things too seriously and
feeling overwhelmed.
[quote]So when Brahma wakes up will the universe go out of
existence such as our dreams?[/quote]Yes.
[quote]Wonder how I got there, and why there is nothing else,
what am I supposed to do? etc. etc.[/quote]It's up to you what
to do. There is no reason there isn't anything else -- it's
just the way it is. ROFL, do you think everything has to have a
"why" to it? "Why" is the result of "time."
Ultimately, I see no "real" purpose to anything. The only
purposes there are are the ones we invent. You are hungry, so
you say you will fry some eggs. Someone says, "Why are you
frying eggs?" You say "because I was hungry." But is that
true? In a way it is. In a way it isn't. What happend?
Something in your reality didn't please you -- you felt hungry.
Then you got the picture in your mind of the future -- cooking,
eating, and then the hunger goes away. Other possibilities
existed, but you chose the egg one. That gave you a purpose.
If you changed the hunger into feeling satisfied by frying and
eating the eggs, you achieved your purpose.
So far as I can see the highest purpose in the universe is
making things happen. I say that advisedly. A child naturally
wants to make things happen; and generally, he has good
instincts and isn't malicious. But if you stop him from doing
productive or fun things, he'll get the idea he can't make those
kinds of things happen. Then he'll sink down emotionally -- and
he'll start making other kinds of things happen. He may break
things, for example. He may annoy you verbally. Who knows what
he'll do; but he'll be trying to make something happen.
[quote]Couldn't that be seen as making yourself some toys to
amuse yourself with?[/quote]Ah, no. You are also the toys. If
you lose them, what then? You lost a part of yourself. That's
God's problem! As Madame Blavatsky put it, God has His karma
too.
Only God exists. If one of the "sheep" gets lost, God lost part
of Himself.
For the most part, God has it rougher than the toys. The toys
can do as they please -- they can even hate God. But God is
stuck with them. The "game" appears to get everything put back
together again, so if "one bit" is missing, it's a tragedy --
like that picture puzzle you find out is missing a piece.
[quote]Would you say one needs God in order to obey the Golden
Rule 100%?[/quote]I would guess you would have to be God to do
that. By that, I mean lose all sense of self-identity and merge
with God -- complete nirvana -- complete forgetfulness of self.
Self can move up and down the levels of awareness -- like a
squirrel on a tree going from a small branch to a bigger branch
and finally the trunk.
#Post#: 4919--------------------------------------------------
Re: Catch 22
By: Leaf Date: May 18, 2013, 9:14 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]George wrote:
It is my understanding that in order for salvation one must
truly believe.[/quote]
Which salvation? Salvation of the spirit, or the soul, or the
body?
[quote]
Believe in God, believe in Jesus Christ, believe Jesus was
crucified and resurrected on the third day, just to name a few
thing that are required to believe. Here is the catch 22, What
is it to truly believe? Does that mean that you have truly
convinced yourself that you know the unknown to be an absolute
truth without any evidence other than old writings from over
1500 years ago?[/quote]
I see other evidence... those who have gone before us. I do not
consider them as deluded or as liars, but as individuals who
have either been touched through the veiled and or also seen
through the veil.
[quote] It would almost seem as if one could not truly believe
without undeniable evidence of what it is that they believe in.
There were many people who met Jesus and seen his miraculous
wonders, and heard the great news, and even knowing the man
seeing with there own eyes, they still did not believe. His own
disciples did not believe, until they seen him with there own
eyes, touched him, watched him eat, They did not believe. Thomas
would not believe and said he would not believe unless he seen
it with his own eyes. Yet we are to truly believe? In a way that
would seem to be lying to oneself to say they truly believe in
certain things. If there is no physical evidence how can you
truly believe? Without first hand experience how can you truly
believe?[/quote]
The challenge, it seems to me, is in either considering all who
have come and gone since then, along with their testimonies to
either be lies or the truth. Additionally, did the apostles die
for a lie? Did all those thrown to the lions delude themselves?
Or did they know without a doubt that Jesus is alive? Isn't that
a form of proof and evidence?
#Post#: 4920--------------------------------------------------
Re: Catch 22
By: Leaf Date: May 18, 2013, 9:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]Kerry wrote:
Could anyone believe me if I said self is an illusion?[/quote]
Yes. Definitely agree.
#Post#: 4938--------------------------------------------------
Re: Catch 22
By: Kerry Date: May 19, 2013, 10:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Leaf link=topic=469.msg4920#msg4920
date=1368929985]
[quote]Kerry wrote:
Could anyone believe me if I said self is an illusion?[/quote]
Yes. Definitely agree.
[/quote]YI remember saying once there was only one thing I could
be sure of -- that I existed as an aware being. I might be
hallucinating, but I still had to exist. Then you said you
weren't sure about even that. That threw me for a loop, and
then I realized I too wasn't sure I existed. LOL
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