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#Post#: 4418--------------------------------------------------
Easter ?
By: Rita Date: April 1, 2013, 1:20 am
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Hi Everyone,
I was listening to a sermon yesterday, actually it was really
interesting and made a lot of sense- but has once again created
' doubts ' about why we do things as we do now with church life,
in fact I am even more disillusioned. For the past four years I
have questioned things - and this has fuelled things further.
Jesus was in the tomb three days- right !
Jesus died on the passover - right !
Jesus died, his body was prepared, then buried before the
Sabbath day - right !
The tomb was discovered empty the day after the Sabbath , the
Sunday - right !
So why do we have ' good friday ' and claim it was the day on
which Jesus died on the cross - work it out- there is simply not
enough time in between- I have never thought about it much, have
pondered it over the years but yesterday I thought about it some
more as this preacher brought out all the facts.
He explained that the passover would have been on the wednesday
- but what he went on to explain deeply concerned me. He gave a
history lesson as to why our church ancestors did not want
Easter to fall on the same time as passover ( which when you
think about it is stupid becasue it was so relevant that Jesus
died on that day -everything worked together to make sure it
happened at that precise time.
From the notes he had from church history, it was clear that
originally all effort was made within the church to deliberately
not associate with the Jewish passover, and the reasons stated
were anti Semitic- the early church was so opposed to the Jews
becasue they played a part in the killing of Jesus that they
disassociated from anything to do with them.
I just find that so soul destroying to know that our own church
calender has its origins in this kind of thing. Every
denomination in the western world goes along with Good Friday ,
and yet its just accepted and celebrated without question - I am
not sure I can do that any more - God has been prompting me to
think about traditions for some time, just got so tired of
going through the motions with
everything - you know why do we have communion on the first
Sunday of every month, why do we have to sit in rows, why do we
have to have song, messages, song, prayer, song, sermon, close
of service.
I have not written this to offend or hurt anyone, but has anyone
else ever gone through a phase in their Christian life when they
have also questioned so many things - I kind of feel a bit alone
with this , well in theory in my own world I am alone with what
I feel at the moment.
I am not part of a church right now, have not been for four
months- I am actually wondering whether to join the messianic
Jews ( seriously it is a thought going through my mind ). I mean
they celebrate Jesus, but also respect the passover and other
celebrations, but obviously I do not know enough about that to
know if it would be right or even possible !
Kerry, I wasn't sure if this was the right section for what I
have brought up - so it may need to be moved
Rita
#Post#: 4424--------------------------------------------------
Re: Easter ?
By: thelowlyfisherman Date: April 1, 2013, 8:46 am
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Traditions of men.
In my house, we celebrate Resurrection Day.
We don't go to church on Resurrection Sunday anymore. There is
no place to go that it is not a heathen service. In my life I've
been Presbyterian, Baptist, Assemblies, Lutheran,
Non-Denominational, and Catholic, and they all believe in Easter
with all the trimmings.
This is me kicking over the money changers tables.
#Post#: 4427--------------------------------------------------
Re: Easter ?
By: George Date: April 1, 2013, 10:14 am
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[quote author=Rita link=topic=461.msg4418#msg4418
date=1364797214]
I have not written this to offend or hurt anyone, but has anyone
else ever gone through a phase in their Christian life when they
have also questioned so many things - I kind of feel a bit alone
with this , well in theory in my own world I am alone with what
I feel at the moment.
[/quote]
You must not read many of my threads! ;D LOL I'm with you
Rita(although I don't consider myself a Christian) believe me
your not alone! I have questioned the whole 3 days and 3 nights
several times. I was also under the impression that if there is
any truth it would have had to take place on Wednesday. If the
"Church" lies about these things, what else are they lying or
being deceitful about? Here is something else that is not true
yet is celebrated in Christianity religiously. From my studies,
Jesus was not born December 25th. So why do we celebrate
Christmas? That is interesting to look into as well. It is
shocking how many dates tie into Pagan traditions!
P.S. My personal conviction is Jesus did not die on the cross!
It was interesting I watched "The Bible" series on the history
channel, IMO it was a terrible interpretation of the scripture;
but what I found interesting in yesterdays season finally was
the crucifixion and discovery of the empty tomb. The characters
in the show who played the disciples where scripted to say,
"They tried to kill Jesus but failed" And that is what I believe
as well.
Hebrews 5:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers
and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was
able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
If we read the scripture and refer to when it says that a prayer
was heard, in every other case I know of it meant that the
prayer was excepted and granted. Best example is this
John 11
King James Version (KJV)
40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou
wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead
was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I
thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the
people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou
hast sent me.
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice,
Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with
graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus
saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
#Post#: 4431--------------------------------------------------
Re: Easter ?
By: Rita Date: April 1, 2013, 1:56 pm
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[quote author=thelowlyfisherman link=topic=461.msg4424#msg4424
date=1364823976]
Traditions of men.
In my house, we celebrate Resurrection Day.
We don't go to church on Resurrection Sunday anymore. There is
no place to go that it is not a heathen service. In my life I've
been Presbyterian, Baptist, Assemblies, Lutheran,
Non-Denominational, and Catholic, and they all believe in Easter
with all the trimmings.
This is me kicking over the money changers tables.
[/quote]
Inside I kind of feel as if I frustrated in the same way as
Jesus - the feelings I have had gradually deepened and widened
over the years. Yet even I know that the churches I have been
apart of are not vindictive, they genuinely believe in the good
things they are doing, so none of it is deliberate and there
are many nice and loving people there ( well most of the time )
So I don't actually know what I am meant to do with the
convictions I have. I have prayed for my eyes to be opened
within my life, guess I have got what I asked for !
Now to figure out where I go from this point in my life.
Rita
#Post#: 4432--------------------------------------------------
Re: Easter ?
By: Rita Date: April 1, 2013, 2:14 pm
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Hi George
LOL - I have not read that much over the past 8months, and I
kind of think I fit into a slightly different place to you. You
see I do believe in the bible and what it conveys, its
interpretation and how certain things are proclaimed that I have
an issue with, The sermon yesterday was biblical based, but had
the context of history - so it all made perfect sense to me.
Like you I have questioned certain aspects, but never really
questioned it enough with regards to Easter, so yesterday was
like a light bulb going on in my head x
As far as Christmas is concerned, I have had many questions and
convictions about that for over 20years, like you I could not
understand why we celebrated Jesus's birth in December- I did
challenge my mentors early on about it and was told that it was
better to celebrate it in dec than never celebrate it - never
really quenched my inner convictions, but I just carried on
endeavouring to make sense of it all. The nativity always got to
me, I hated the fact that the wise men were always conveyed as
coming on the day of Jesus birth , bearing gifts and being told
that this is why we give gifts- I had read in many commentaries
that the wise men came some time after his birth and that the
presents had a pagan origin. For years I put my disquiet down to
the fact that I loved Christmas for all the wrong reasons, and
chose to celebrate in the way my own non Christian family had
done for years.
I am not saying that I do not think it is wrong to be thankful
for Christ's birth, but I wish it was separate and that the
church would not try and embrace the pagan things and endeavour
to make them something else - of course that may just be my
ignorance of origins.
As for the cross, well I do believe that and have never had any
convictions or questions to the contrary.
One of the ladies I work for does not believe many things about
Jesus and I find it very hard to know how to address her because
my own belief is very strong with regards to who he is, why he
came, why he died and what that led to.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts x
Rita
#Post#: 4433--------------------------------------------------
Re: Easter ?
By: Kerry Date: April 1, 2013, 3:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Rita link=topic=461.msg4418#msg4418
date=1364797214]
He explained that the passover would have been on the wednesday
- but what he went on to explain deeply concerned me. He gave a
history lesson as to why our church ancestors did not want
Easter to fall on the same time as passover ( which when you
think about it is stupid becasue it was so relevant that Jesus
died on that day -everything worked together to make sure it
happened at that precise time.
From the notes he had from church history, it was clear that
originally all effort was made within the church to deliberately
not associate with the Jewish passover, and the reasons stated
were anti Semitic- the early church was so opposed to the Jews
becasue they played a part in the killing of Jesus that they
disassociated from anything to do with them.
I just find that so soul destroying to know that our own church
calender has its origins in this kind of thing. Every
denomination in the western world goes along with Good Friday ,
and yet its just accepted and celebrated without question - I am
not sure I can do that any more - God has been prompting me to
think about traditions for some time, just got so tired of
going through the motions with
everything - you know why do we have communion on the first
Sunday of every month, why do we have to sit in rows, why do we
have to have song, messages, song, prayer, song, sermon, close
of service.
I have not written this to offend or hurt anyone, but has anyone
else ever gone through a phase in their Christian life when they
have also questioned so many things - I kind of feel a bit alone
with this , well in theory in my own world I am alone with what
I feel at the moment.
I am not part of a church right now, have not been for four
months- I am actually wondering whether to join the messianic
Jews ( seriously it is a thought going through my mind ). I mean
they celebrate Jesus, but also respect the passover and other
celebrations, but obviously I do not know enough about that to
know if it would be right or even possible ! [/quote]
Hi Rita,
I favor the Wednesday theory myself; but I think the spirit it's
celebrate with is more important than the date. If men had bad
motives for what they did, you needn't let that affect you since
you don't have those motives. Paul's probably talking about the
weekly sabbath here; but I apply it to holidays too.
Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another
esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in
his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he
that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.
He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks;
and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth
God thanks.
It's easy to read the Gospels and think that "sabbath" has to
mean Saturday; but the truth is the Jews used the word for other
holy days also. They could call them by name, or call them "a
holy day" or "a high sabbath." John is the only author who
specifically says that that sabbath was a high one.
John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation,
that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath
day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate
that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken
away.
From that verse, we should understand he meant Passover. It
could be any day of the week. My own belief goes like this.
Wednesday: Crucifixion -- day of preparation for Passove
Wednesday afternoon before sunset: Jesus was buried.
Thursday: Passover
Friday: Another day of preparation -- for the weekly sabbath
Saturday: Sabbath
Saturday afternoon before sunset: Jesus was resurrected
Sunday morning: He was seen
Note that the Bible does not say Jesus was resurrected on the
first day of the week. All it says is that he appeared then.
I believe he was in the tomb exactly 72 hours, but not seen by
people for about 84.
At the Synod of Whitby in 664 AD, it was admitted that St. John
had always celebrated Easter on the same date the Jews
celebrated Passover. A priest by the name of Wilfred arguing in
favor of the Catholic date said as much. The problem was that
the Celtic Church wasn't celebrating Easter on Passover.
HTML http://www.wilfrid.com/Wilfrid_pilgrimage/Whitby_synod.htm
At this Wilfrid explained that actually John celebrated Easter
according to the decrees of Mosaic law from the evening of the
14th day of the first month (Nisan) irrespective of whether it
fell on the Sabbath or not, whereas the Celtic calculation made
Easter the first Sunday between the 14th and 20th day of the
first moon. Wilfrid explained that the Roman calculation was
based on Peter's preaching in Rome where he waited for the
rising of the moon on the 14th day of the first moon and if in
the morning it was the Lord's day, then Easter was on that day,
if not, he waited for the first Sunday up to the 21st and began
the Easter ceremonies the night before so it came about that
Easter Sunday was kept on the first Sunday between the 15th and
the 21st day of the first moon. Wilfrid then faced Colman and
said 'in your calculation you follow neither John or Peter,
neither the law nor the Gospel.'
Colman then said that Anatolius had decreed that the calculation
should be between the 14th and 20th day of the first moon and
that was what Columba had followed. Wilfrid then proceeded to
show that actually the Celtic calculation did not follow the 19
year lunar cycle used by Anatolius and implied in effect that
Colman did not know what he was talking about!
At any rate, the synod voted in favor of the Catholic method.
Ireland had switched earlier. What I find fascinating about
this is that it was over 300 years after the Council of Nicea
which set the "Roman date" as the one to follow. That tells me
that early Christians did not look at these councils as
infallible in their decrees. If an "Ecumenical Council" had
already decided it, why would people be debating it Whitby
centuries later?
The anti-semitism caused another rift. The Roman Catholic
Church continued to use unleavened bread; but that was rejected
by the Orthodox Church. This disagreement was one of the more
minor problems that contributed to the Great Schism.
I don't think most people today know about the anti-semitism, so
I figure they're not guilty of it if they worship on this day.
Yes, I think they're "wrong," but I don't think it matters if
their heart is right.
#Post#: 4434--------------------------------------------------
Re: Easter ?
By: thelowlyfisherman Date: April 1, 2013, 3:54 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
And why should the Celtic Church celebrate Easter on Passover?
Easter back them was about Eastari, the goddess of fertility.
Not Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection.
I keep saying it, "Goddess of fertility", "Easter Bunny",
"Easter Eggs".......hello?
I don't think its maliciously done, at least not now, but,
willful ignorance is no excuse, as its really not ignorance at
all.
#Post#: 4435--------------------------------------------------
Re: Easter ?
By: Rita Date: April 2, 2013, 12:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Wednesday: Crucifixion -- day of preparation for Passove
Wednesday afternoon before sunset: Jesus was buried.
Thursday: Passover
Friday: Another day of preparation -- for the weekly sabbath
Saturday: Sabbath
Saturday afternoon before sunset: Jesus was resurrected
Sunday morning: He was seen
I have always believed in my heart that Jesus died on the actual
passover - he was/is the ultimate atonement, he was/is the
unblemished lamb.
For some unknown reason I never really gave Good Friday much
thought, in regards to why it developed and became part of the
church calender- I guess I kind of trusted that it was relevant.
At any rate, the synod voted in favor of the Catholic method.
Ireland had switched earlier. What I find fascinating about
this is that it was over 300 years after the Council of Nicea
which set the "Roman date" as the one to follow. That tells me
that early Christians did not look at these councils as
infallible in their decrees. If an "Ecumenical Council" had
already decided it, why would people be debating it Whitby
centuries later?
The anti-semitism caused another rift. The Roman Catholic
Church continued to use unleavened bread; but that was rejected
by the Orthodox Church. This disagreement was one of the more
minor problems that contributed to the Great Schism.
I don't think most people today know about the anti-semitism, so
I figure they're not guilty of it if they worship on this day.
Yes, I think they're "wrong," but I don't think it matters if
their heart is right.
I do understand the above, but my eyes have been open to what
lay at the root of why we celebrate Jesus's death on Good Friday
and not the passover, for me it can never be the same - I do not
want to be associated with anything that has its roots in anti
-semitism, on principle. I am not responsible for what others
choose to do, but I am responsible for my own choices. Many
years ago I was challenged by my pastor to always go back to why
something starts, what led to something being instigated- but
sadly I get so confused by the history of the church sometimes.
I think I may buy the book that went along with the sermon, I
was only able to listen to the first part and even then was not
able to make notes - I really need to hear the rest of what he
said.
[quote author=thelowlyfisherman link=topic=461.msg4434#msg4434
date=1364849649]
And why should the Celtic Church celebrate Easter on Passover?
Easter back them was about Eastari, the goddess of fertility.
Not Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection.
I keep saying it, "Goddess of fertility", "Easter Bunny",
"Easter Eggs".......hello?
I don't think its maliciously done, at least not now, but,
willful ignorance is no excuse, as its really not ignorance at
all.
[/quote]
I guess its about association with words - when I hear the word
' Easter ' , I always associate it with the Cross first, and
eggs and easter bunnies as the commercial side. The Churches I
have been apart of have given eggs to children but as a
symbolic way of expressing ' New Life through Christ ' - in
other words they have turned a pagan thing into a message- a bit
like Christmas. I don't know how I feel about that side, it
niggles me but the real issue for me is knowing the motive for
some of the controversy over the years.
For me personally I feel that I would prefer to acknowledge the
cross on passover from now on - in my heart that feels so right.
Why God has chosen to open my eyes to this right now, well time
will tell.
Many thanks for all your thoughts - its been really helpful and
much appreciated xx
Rita
#Post#: 4437--------------------------------------------------
Re: Easter ?
By: coldwar Date: April 2, 2013, 8:22 am
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Kerry's timeline is absolutely correct. I've known this from way
back almost 40 years when I used to listen to Herbert W.
Armstrong, who insisted on the same timeline. I've never bought
into Easter or Christmas, and though I submit to family in Love
to observe Christmas, I do not celebrate Easter.
I do not attend church now, other than volunteering in a federal
prison Chapel every Sunday night. All churches put tradition
ahead of truth, from what I've seen.
I am very familiar with the Messianic Jews, as I have a couple
of friends in that movement, and often try to recruit me. From
what I've observed, they insist on observing the Law, which I
believe was abolished. How can there be continued observance of
the Law when there is no Temple available for it's full
observation? It has to be all or none - James 2:10; my take on
it is, I will not put myself under transgression of the Law for
the sake of keeping the right days.
I may be coming across as blunt here, but I'll temper that by
saying that I'm concerned that I don't go to church - see my
Post about the Eucharist - I do struggle.
Finally, about "The Bible" miniseries on History Channel, I
wrote a review of it on my Blog yesterday, if anyone's
interested.
HTML http://www.davemiltonphotography.com/2013/04/the-bible-miniseries-review.html
#Post#: 4438--------------------------------------------------
Re: Easter ?
By: George Date: April 2, 2013, 8:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=coldwar link=topic=461.msg4437#msg4437
date=1364908951]
Finally, about "The Bible" miniseries on History Channel, I
wrote a review of it on my Blog yesterday, if anyone's
interested.
HTML http://www.davemiltonphotography.com/2013/04/the-bible-miniseries-review.html
[/quote]
Thanks for sharing. Ive seen a mixed bag of reviews, it was
interesting to me; but as I told a buddy of mine if it is seen
as a fictional portrayal of scripture that is fine. One could
not truly learn about the bible from a mini series, and due to
the inconsistencies, and misrepresentations one could actually
get the wrong ideas or impressions. Which seem somewhat
unfortunate to me.
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