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#Post#: 4109--------------------------------------------------
What has changed?
By: George Date: March 11, 2013, 10:51 am
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What has changed so much in the world that since the time of
Abraham it was looked on as the greatest sign of faith, that he
would take his son on top of a mountain tie him up and be
willing to sacrifice him. Because he heard a voice out of a
burning bush. Today if there was a case where a man had his son
tied up to be sacrificed and he was kneeling on the ground
praying and the police approached him, he would be immediately
arrested. When taken to trial he is asked guilty, not guilty, or
guilty by reason of insanity. What about God told me to do it.
That is never a plea option. If the man said God told me to do
it, he would be accused of insanity, or smoking bath salt and
losing his mind.
There have been many crimes committed by people who claim that
God told them to do it; but they are never taken seriously, They
are always labeled as insane.
Why is this? Why do some believe Abraham to be of great faith
while others to be insane?
Who has the authority to say when someone is truly hearing from
God or if they are insane?
Or we read in the bible that God tells his people to kill,
conquer, and enslave people of other tribes; Today when we hear
about radical religious people who believe they have a calling
to kill, They too are arrested for hate crimes. Nobody ever says
well maybe God did tell them to do it.
Why are these things acceptable and honorable in the bible but
looked at as insane and criminal today?
#Post#: 4110--------------------------------------------------
Re: What has changed?
By: Kerry Date: March 11, 2013, 11:28 am
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[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=428.msg4109#msg4109
date=1363017100]
What has changed so much in the world that since the time of
Abraham it was looked on as the greatest sign of faith, that he
would take his son on top of a mountain tie him up and be
willing to sacrifice him.[/quote]
Does the text actually say to offer Isaac as a sacrifice? It
may in your translation; but in the original Hebrew, it doesn't
say that God told Abraham to offer up Isaac as a burnt
sacrifice. It says Abraham was told to take his son and go to
make a burnt offering.
[quote] Because he heard a voice out of a burning bush. Today if
there was a case where a man had his son tied up to be
sacrificed and he was kneeling on the ground praying and the
police approached him, he would be immediately arrested.
[/quote]Are you mixing this story up with the story about Moses
perhaps?
[quote]When taken to trial he is asked guilty, not guilty, or
guilty by reason of insanity. What about God told me to do it.
That is never a plea option. If the man said God told me to do
it, he would be accused of insanity, or smoking bath salt and
losing his mind.
There have been many crimes committed by people who claim that
God told them to do it; but they are never taken seriously, They
are always labeled as insane.
Why is this? Why do some believe Abraham to be of great faith
while others to be insane? [/quote]
Notice how long Abraham took to obey. He did not want to rush
lest people would think he was insane and carried off by a whim.
It took them three days to get to Mount Moriah. Also notice
what Abraham told the people with them: "Abide ye here with the
<donkey>; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come
again to you."
[quote]Who has the authority to say when someone is truly
hearing from God or if they are insane? [/quote]
Authority? What I can tell you is that this was not the first
time Abraham heard from God. He was told to "perfect" himself
earlier. Now if you know you are not perfect, you should
probably doubt it if you think you are hearing from God and
being told to something strange.
[quote]Or we read in the bible that God tells his people to
kill, conquer, and enslave people of other tribes; Today when we
hear about radical religious people who believe they have a
calling to kill, They too are arrested for hate crimes. Nobody
ever says well maybe God did tell them to do it.
Why are these things acceptable and honorable in the bible but
looked at as insane and criminal today?
[/quote]Why do you throw so many things into one thread? Why
are you mentioning slavery? I was told once myself that if I
did not kill someone, he would kill someone else. I didn't
kill him, and he did wind up murdering someone. It was not a
commandment to me to kill him, but it would have been okay if I
had. I also say it would have honorable if I had; and there is
a part of me that regrets not doing it.
As for these other people? I daresay many of them are chatting
with demons.
#Post#: 4113--------------------------------------------------
Re: What has changed?
By: George Date: March 11, 2013, 12:16 pm
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=428.msg4110#msg4110
date=1363019312]
[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=428.msg4109#msg4109
date=1363017100]
What has changed so much in the world that since the time of
Abraham it was looked on as the greatest sign of faith, that he
would take his son on top of a mountain tie him up and be
willing to sacrifice him.[/quote]
Does the text actually say to offer Isaac as a sacrifice? It
may in your translation; but in the original Hebrew, it doesn't
say that God told Abraham to offer up Isaac as a burnt
sacrifice. It says Abraham was told to take his son and go to
make a burnt offering.
[/quote]
It does say he tied him up though correct? And it was at the
last second that he was commanded to stop?
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=428.msg4110#msg4110
date=1363019312]
[quote] Because he heard a voice out of a burning bush. Today if
there was a case where a man had his son tied up to be
sacrificed and he was kneeling on the ground praying and the
police approached him, he would be immediately arrested.
[/quote]Are you mixing this story up with the story about Moses
perhaps?
[/quote]
I did didn't I.
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=428.msg4110#msg4110
date=1363019312]
[quote]When taken to trial he is asked guilty, not guilty, or
guilty by reason of insanity. What about God told me to do it.
That is never a plea option. If the man said God told me to do
it, he would be accused of insanity, or smoking bath salt and
losing his mind.
There have been many crimes committed by people who claim that
God told them to do it; but they are never taken seriously, They
are always labeled as insane.
Why is this? Why do some believe Abraham to be of great faith
while others to be insane? [/quote]
Notice how long Abraham took to obey. He did not want to rush
lest people would think he was insane and carried off by a whim.
It took them three days to get to Mount Moriah. Also notice
what Abraham told the people with them: "Abide ye here with the
<donkey>; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come
again to you."
[/quote]
What does this say? I read a contradiction within itself, he
took his time, three days. So that the people wouldn't think he
was insane. Insane for what? Killing his son? Then Abraham is
said to say "Abide ye here with the <donkey>; and I and the lad
will go yonder and worship, and come again to you." As if he
knew that God would intervene. If he knew that then its all just
a game. Abraham called Gods bluff and won. Sounds like he had
more faith in himself and his confidence that God was bluffing
than in God per say.
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=428.msg4110#msg4110
date=1363019312]
[quote]Who has the authority to say when someone is truly
hearing from God or if they are insane? [/quote]
Authority? What I can tell you is that this was not the first
time Abraham heard from God. He was told to "perfect" himself
earlier. Now if you know you are not perfect, you should
probably doubt it if you think you are hearing from God and
being told to something strange.
[/quote]
I would agree if it was mutually understood there is no such
thing as perfect. At least not in this physical world.
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=428.msg4110#msg4110
date=1363019312]
[quote]Or we read in the bible that God tells his people to
kill, conquer, and enslave people of other tribes; Today when we
hear about radical religious people who believe they have a
calling to kill, They too are arrested for hate crimes. Nobody
ever says well maybe God did tell them to do it.
Why are these things acceptable and honorable in the bible but
looked at as insane and criminal today?
[/quote]Why do you throw so many things into one thread? Why
are you mentioning slavery? I was told once myself that if I
did not kill someone, he would kill someone else. I didn't
kill him, and he did wind up murdering someone. It was not a
commandment to me to kill him, but it would have been okay if I
had. I also say it would have honorable if I had; and there is
a part of me that regrets not doing it.
As for these other people? I daresay many of them are chatting
with demons.
[/quote]
I thought to myself when adding this section, this is a thread
of its own. But it kind of works off of the same theme.
#Post#: 4114--------------------------------------------------
Re: What has changed?
By: Kerry Date: March 11, 2013, 1:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=428.msg4113#msg4113
date=1363022162]
It does say he tied him up though correct? [/quote]Yes.
[quote]And it was at the last second that he was commanded to
stop?[/quote]
Yes. That does not mean however that Abraham believed he would
lose Isaac. For example, he may have believed Isaac would be
resurrected.
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=428.msg4110#msg4110
date=1363019312]
[quote][quote]When taken to trial he is asked guilty, not
guilty, or guilty by reason of insanity. What about God told me
to do it. That is never a plea option. If the man said God told
me to do it, he would be accused of insanity, or smoking bath
salt and losing his mind.
There have been many crimes committed by people who claim that
God told them to do it; but they are never taken seriously, They
are always labeled as insane.
Why is this? Why do some believe Abraham to be of great faith
while others to be insane? [/quote]
Notice how long Abraham took to obey. He did not want to rush
lest people would think he was insane and carried off by a whim.
It took them three days to get to Mount Moriah. Also notice
what Abraham told the people with them: "Abide ye here with the
<donkey>; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come
again to you."
[/quote]
What does this say? I read a contradiction within itself, he
took his time, three days. So that the people wouldn't think he
was insane. Insane for what? Killing his son?[/quote]Yes, so
they would not think he did it on a whim. Abraham was trying
to act as normal as possible although he was under strain. That
he was under strain is shown by his absent-mindedly saddling his
own animal to ride. In that society, he should have gotten a
servant to do that.
[quote] Then Abraham is said to say "Abide ye here with the
<donkey>; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come
again to you." As if he knew that God would intervene. If he
knew that then its all just a game. Abraham called Gods bluff
and won. Sounds like he had more faith in himself and his
confidence that God was bluffing than in God per say.
[/quote]God had told him that Isaac was the child of promise.
Even if he had sacrificed him, that would have meant God would
have had to resurrect him.
[quote][quote author=Kerry link=topic=428.msg4110#msg4110
date=1363019312]
[quote]Who has the authority to say when someone is truly
hearing from God or if they are insane? [/quote]
Authority? What I can tell you is that this was not the first
time Abraham heard from God. He was told to "perfect" himself
earlier. Now if you know you are not perfect, you should
probably doubt it if you think you are hearing from God and
being told to something strange.
[/quote]
I would agree if it was mutually understood there is no such
thing as perfect. At least not in this physical
world.[/quote]Can you believe Abraham perfected himself? Can
you believe he was a friend of God? I think he was a friend
of God because of the way he behaved here. First he did not
assume that God had told him to offer Isaac as a burnt offering.
What God said could be interpreted two ways. Abraham assumed
God was not asking him to do anything destructive -- he assumed
that Isaac would not be the burnt offering. But he also knew
that was his assumption. He had to go along with things to
find out. In short, he "suspected" God of goodness and not
evil.
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, Solomon said; and in
Genesis it says the time came to test Abraham. I say there is
a concealed truth in this chapter. The real test was of Isaac.
Isaac passed. If Abraham had coddled him and not allowed the
test to go forward, Isaac might never have known something about
himself. He might have lost courage later in his life.
It is said that Isaac was bound so severely, he bore the marks
on his wrists and ankles the rest of his life. If we suppose
that the knife made a mark, we can see he would have had five
marks just as Jesus did. Another parallel is that the Jews say
Isaac obtained the right to intercede for his offspring in
Gehinnom by this; and Christians believe Jesus harrowed hell.
Curiously enough, Padre Pio, with his stigmata, also talked
about rescuing souls from purgatory -- as did Francis of Assisi.
It is not always the case; but sometimes those who pass this
test do bear marks in their bodies.
We ought not believe that God tests us to prove something to
Himself or to see if we will fail. Rather I think we should
believe God tests us when He wants us to know something about
ourselves -- know it so completely we never doubt it again.
Self-doubt can be a destroyer.
There may be another lesson in this too. Isaac did not hear
the Voice of God, but he seemed convinced Abraham had. It
seems he was willing to risk his life on it. Or did Isaac hear
the Voice of God when his father spoke?
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