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#Post#: 4057--------------------------------------------------
Is this what it truely says?
By: George Date: March 8, 2013, 5:40 pm
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1. Are we born sinners?
2. Are we born into a world of punishment?
3. Are things this way because man was given free will?
4. If we don't accept this punishment with grace and turn to God
then we will be punished again after we die?
The common Christian myth(Or story of the bible) is, We are all
born sinners that are unworthy of God's presence, we are born
into a world of punishment from the original sin that was
committed by the first humans God made. The world is a terrible
place because God gave this first couple free will and they
chose wrong. Because of free will we see the horrible world
around us. And if we fall victim to being a product of our
environment and don't find God through the haze then there will
be a second punishment?
Agree or disagree?
#Post#: 4061--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is this what it truely says?
By: Mike Date: March 9, 2013, 8:14 am
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What I believe, for what it is worth (but at least I have a
‘faith’ and am not preoccupied with undermining a faith that I
don’t have) is that man’s default destiny is simply to perish.
That is not a punishment for ‘sin’, but it is a consequence IMO.
If it were left at that then there be no interest in punishment
or destiny.
But I believe that God added an alternative to ‘perish’ which
man can embrace or ignore.
And that is to stretch forth his hand and (metaphorically maybe)
partake of the tree of life.
Meaning (as per John 3:16) to believe with sufficient efficacy,
in The Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently to “not perish but
have everlasting life”.
To me it is so incredibly simple….but too simple for
intellectual embrace. (which of course would not be ‘faith’ in
any case.)
#Post#: 4062--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is this what it truely says?
By: thelowlyfisherman Date: March 9, 2013, 8:35 am
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George, as I've stated before, the natural man is just another
animal. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't see why an
unbeliever would have a problem with this?
Now, there will come a time that when that animal see's what
could have been and his own poor choices will be a torment to
him.
Do you have any children? And do they have consequences for poor
behavior or do you just let them do as they please?
The problem with thinking we are grown up is that we believe we
have arrived. We have only scratched the surface. Father calls
us His children for a reason.
#Post#: 4064--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is this what it truely says?
By: George Date: March 9, 2013, 11:46 am
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[quote author=Mike link=topic=424.msg4061#msg4061
date=1362838492]
(but at least I have a ‘faith’ and am not preoccupied with
undermining a faith that I don’t have)
[/quote]
Hi Mike,
Thank you for your reply, I am curious as to why you feel the
need to make statements such as what I have quoted you saying,
every time you address me? I am very aware that, that is your
opinion of me. What exactly are you saying though? That I am
trying to undermine Christendom, or undermine the existence of
God? Undermine faith in what? Religion in general?
#Post#: 4066--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is this what it truely says?
By: George Date: March 9, 2013, 11:51 am
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[quote author=Mike link=topic=424.msg4061#msg4061
date=1362838492]
What I believe, for what it is worth is that man’s default
destiny is simply to perish.
[/quote]
So you believe God made man with a default destiny to die? No
matter what happen in Eden Adam and Eve were going to die along
with everyone else who ever was born? Death was not part of the
punishment?
#Post#: 4068--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is this what it truely says?
By: George Date: March 9, 2013, 12:00 pm
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[quote author=thelowlyfisherman link=topic=424.msg4062#msg4062
date=1362839740]
Do you have any children?
[/quote]
Yes
[quote author=thelowlyfisherman link=topic=424.msg4062#msg4062
date=1362839740]
And do they have consequences for poor behavior or do you just
let them do as they please?
[/quote]
There are consequences.
[quote author=thelowlyfisherman link=topic=424.msg4062#msg4062
date=1362839740]
The problem with thinking we are grown up is that we believe we
have arrived. We have only scratched the surface. Father calls
us His children for a reason.
[/quote]
You might be on to something there. I want to get to know the
Father better, because He can help teach me what I don't know;
but seem to have a hard time finding Him! Or maybe He is with me
the whole time and I just can't seem to realize it. Sometimes I
feel as if I'm there one with the Father and other times I feel
like well where did He go? Maybe it was just my imagination,
emotions, humanity. Maybe I have strayed from the path. Maybe I
am delusional?
#Post#: 4069--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is this what it truely says?
By: coldwar Date: March 9, 2013, 12:13 pm
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I will offer some short answers to your short questions. These
points would all merit further discussion, I'm sure.
1. Are we born sinners?
No. Without the introduction of the Law of God, there is no sin:
Romans 4:15 "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is,
there is no transgression."
Also, Adam's supposed "fall" was in fact a first necessary step
toward one-ness with God:
Genesis 3: 22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become
as one of us, to know good and evil", but this particular "move"
(think of a big Chess Game), necesitated many more things to
happen from then on, the first being expulsion from Eden:
Genesis 3:"and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of
the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the
LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the
ground from whence he was taken."
2. Are we born into a world of punishment?
Yes and no. Because of what happened from man's first step to
redemption in Eden, we must go through many things, both good
and evil, as decreed by our Maker:
Job 2: 10 "But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the
foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand
of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job
sin with his lips."
Romans 8:22 "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and
travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they,
but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit,
even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the
adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."
3. Are things this way because man was given free will?
I think man's free will is alluded to in the Bible, but not
expressly stated. God holds the ultimate plan which is being
played out, and will culminate in the redemption of all things:
2 Peter 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing,
that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a
thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning
his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering
to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all
should come to repentance."
Eph 1:10 "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he
might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which
are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him"
4. If we don't accept this punishment with grace and turn to God
then we will be punished again after we die?
Judgment is reserved for everybody, whether we've turned in
repentance or not:
Romans 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but
after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear
the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he
appear the second time without sin unto salvation"
Further clarification is offered concerning the judgment of
those without sin versus those with sin:
1 Corinthians 3: 11 "For other foundation can no man lay than
that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build
upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay,
stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the
day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and
the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If
any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall
receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he
shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by
fire.
I hope this was somewhat helpful.
#Post#: 4070--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is this what it truely says?
By: Mike Date: March 9, 2013, 12:21 pm
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[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=424.msg4066#msg4066
date=1362851500]
[quote author=Mike link=topic=424.msg4061#msg4061
date=1362838492]
What I believe, for what it is worth is that man’s default
destiny is simply to perish.
[/quote]
So you believe God made man with a default destiny to die? No
matter what happen in Eden Adam and Eve were going to die along
with everyone else who ever was born? Death was not part of the
punishment?
[/quote]
I said "Man's default destiny is".....not "Man's original
default destiny was"
#Post#: 4071--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is this what it truely says?
By: Mike Date: March 9, 2013, 12:30 pm
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[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=424.msg4064#msg4064
date=1362851204]
Hi Mike,
What exactly are you saying? That I am trying to undermine
Christendom, or undermine the existence of God? Undermine faith
in what? Religion in general?
[/quote]
IMO you are indeed intent on undermining whatever you can find
to major upon.
I have yet to notice a positive post from you embracing 'faith'
in any form.
Sorry bout that but it's how you've always come across to me.
#Post#: 4072--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is this what it truely says?
By: Kerry Date: March 9, 2013, 2:51 pm
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The question I ask is why would God give people free will and
then get angry about what decisions they made? Does it make
sense to think God wants us to do as we please but then also
wants to punish us for it? It doesn't make sense to me.
The idea of God punishing people doesn't make sense to me. I
believe that we humans often want to punish others and even
ourselves; but surely can't we see that is a flaw in us and not
imagine God is like us?
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