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#Post#: 4169--------------------------------------------------
Re: Election of Grace
By: Mike Date: March 18, 2013, 12:24 pm
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Hey George,
At last we have a handle on what you do believe, as distinct
from what you question in respect of what others believe.
You believe:-
that we are all worthy of unconditional love,
that there is no ‘after life’,
that we are all gods who slip into sin and are punished here and
now in a hell that is created within ourselves if we continue in
sin,
that the Kingdom of God is likewise confined to one’s present
lifetime,
that God spared his Son from death on the cross,
that you discovered what you believe all on your own in the
bible whilst studying where the idea of sin came about, (you
didn't pick it up solely from any other person, per se.)
I don’t agree with you of course, but I stand by your right to
believe as you say.
#Post#: 4173--------------------------------------------------
Re: Election of Grace
By: George Date: March 18, 2013, 2:35 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mike link=topic=419.msg4169#msg4169
date=1363627488]
Hey George,
[/quote]
Hello Mike.
[quote author=Mike link=topic=419.msg4169#msg4169
date=1363627488]
At last we have a handle on what you do believe, as distinct
from what you question in respect of what others believe.
[/quote]
This is what I believe at this current moment in respect of what
others believe. My belief seems to be ever changing at this
point whilst some things seem more clear than others
[quote author=Mike link=topic=419.msg4169#msg4169
date=1363627488]
You believe:-
that we are all worthy of unconditional love,
[/quote]
Absolutely!
[quote author=Mike link=topic=419.msg4169#msg4169
date=1363627488]
that there is no ‘after life’,
[/quote]
I have no reason to believe in an afterlife, The idea sounds
terrible either way you cut it. What If I don't want to see
certain people ever again yet we both make it to heaven. I am no
longer in heaven. I am around people I don't care to ever see
again, now I am made to be with them for eternity? No thank you.
Or the idea that people burn in hell, This is simply grotesque!
Just a form of brain washing, scare tactics IMO. I think the
Buddhist have it more correct in that the ultimate nirvana is
going out of existence. There is no sting in death!
[quote author=Mike link=topic=419.msg4169#msg4169
date=1363627488]
that we are all gods
[/quote]
Doesn't your bible say that?
[quote author=Mike link=topic=419.msg4169#msg4169
date=1363627488]
who slip into sin
[/quote]
I'm not sure it is always slipping some I am sure do it
willingly; but yes I believe all sin.
[quote author=Mike link=topic=419.msg4169#msg4169
date=1363627488]
and are punished here and now in a hell that is created within
ourselves if we continue in sin,
[/quote]
Correct, I believe sin punishes itself. Thus money cannot buy
happiness, and money is the root of all evil!
[quote author=Mike link=topic=419.msg4169#msg4169
date=1363627488]
that the Kingdom of God is likewise confined to one’s present
lifetime,
[/quote]
The Kingdom of God is the process of becoming more "God like",
which is ultimately Love, and we can only accomplish this in
this lifetime. Once you die its back to the dust. You lived you
loved or you didn't and you passed. Thus is the story of life.
IMO
[quote author=Mike link=topic=419.msg4169#msg4169
date=1363627488]
that God spared his Son from death on the cross,
[/quote]
If the accounts recorded in the bible are based on true
characters and is correct then I read the story to say that God
saved his Son from death. That is what is most important, this
life that we live, once we die it's over, You can do no more.
Emphasis on if the account is true. I have my doubts that it is
exactly as we read.
[quote author=Mike link=topic=419.msg4169#msg4169
date=1363627488]
that you discovered what you believe all on your own in the
bible whilst studying where the idea of sin came about, (you
didn't pick it up solely from any other person, per se.)
[/quote]
I discovered nothing, all these ideas have already been thought
of before, I have read and listen and talked and questioned and
will continue but at this moment it is what I believe, just like
you believe what you believe, and the next person will believe
what they understand and relate to personal experience. That is
the thing I learned really quick once I began my search for
truth is that it differs from person to person. Just as no two
people are the same no two people share 100% what they believe.
There is not one single other person that you could find that
would agree with you 100% and thus is religion. No two people
agree.
[quote author=Mike link=topic=419.msg4169#msg4169
date=1363627488]
I don’t agree with you of course, but I stand by your right to
believe as you say.
[/quote]
Ah point proven ;)
#Post#: 4176--------------------------------------------------
Re: Election of Grace
By: Mike Date: March 18, 2013, 4:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=419.msg4173#msg4173
date=1363635312]
I discovered nothing, all these ideas have already been thought
of before, I have read and listen and talked and questioned and
will continue but at this moment it is what I believe, just like
you believe what you believe, and the next person will believe
what they understand and relate to personal experience. That is
the thing I learned really quick once I began my search for
truth is that it differs from person to person. Just as no two
people are the same no two people share 100% what they believe.
There is not one single other person that you could find that
would agree with you 100% and thus is religion. No two people
agree.
[/quote]
Not really "just like I believe what I believe".
There is one massive difference between us.
Whereas you say elsewhere that what you believe is only true of
today, the basic fundamentals of what I believe have remained
constant for well over 60 years.
But you don't have to be like me and, with respect, (meaning
'without it' as we always do when using the phrase, LOL) I sure
don't want to be like you with such a fragile 'faith' (if you
can call it that).
#Post#: 4178--------------------------------------------------
Re: Election of Grace
By: George Date: March 18, 2013, 5:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mike link=topic=419.msg4176#msg4176
date=1363642708]
Whereas you say elsewhere that what you believe is only true of
today, the basic fundamentals of what I believe have remained
constant for well over 60 years.
[/quote]
Does this make your belief any more sound or true? A whole 60
years huh? You seem to change opinions regularly in the short
time I've known you. But If you believe that your faith is rock
solid, then believe on brother! I am happy to keep an open mind
and willing to accept new revelation if it happens. What you
call one of those free thinkers.
#Post#: 4191--------------------------------------------------
Re: Election of Grace
By: Laurie Date: March 19, 2013, 6:10 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote=George]I would put most emphasis on the maybe because the
reality is it is up to ones self to be awakened, although our
loving can help to bring them to awareness it is them that must
realize.
I really enjoyed your posts Laurie! Thank you! [/quote]
What do you mean by 'awakened', George?
The way I understand is that people in their human bodies are
'dead' until they are 'made alive'---aka: born of the spirit,
born again.
Are those who've experienced the rebirth more favored by God
than those who've not been? No way!
More later...gotta go to work.
#Post#: 4205--------------------------------------------------
Re: Election of Grace
By: George Date: March 19, 2013, 10:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Laurie link=topic=419.msg4191#msg4191
date=1363691419]
What do you mean by 'awakened', George?
[/quote]
Another way to say it is become aware, When one realizes there
is no solution but Love. When one can break that survival of the
fittest animal mentality and realize we are all gods worthy of
unconditional Love.
[quote author=Laurie link=topic=419.msg4191#msg4191
date=1363691419]
The way I understand is that people in their human bodies are
'dead' until they are 'made alive'---aka: born of the spirit,
born again.
[/quote]
This is where I would say the evolution of religion has taken a
sick turn in order to make one have this mentality in order for
the extreme need for salvation, which IMO is a false
dogma/doctrine
How does a new born baby go from a precious little blessing this
little bundle of Life, to maturing into a dead human?
Or on a Spiritual level to say we are born spiritually dead, yet
some say an infant can remember being with God. Or I have heard
that infants sometimes still have a connection to God. So how
could they be Spiritually dead?
To say people in there human bodies are dead is confusing to me.
I am not sure what is meant by that?
That is similar to how Christopher Hitchens talks about this
idea that we are born sick then commanded to get well, Or born
with this huge load on our backs yet expected to walk upright.
How could this be part of a master plan from a Loving god to
burden humanity with these type of scenarios? Would you put a 50
lb. back pack on your infant child and expect them to be able to
learn how to walk upright? Should we think that God would do
that to us? Or even worse believe he would do that and then
punish us if we aren't able to walk upright, or make ourselves
well?
#Post#: 4208--------------------------------------------------
Re: Election of Grace
By: Mike Date: March 20, 2013, 1:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
George,
All your 'challenges' are very easily answered within the
Christian faith, but because IMO you are 'hell bent' on
rejecting the Christian faith period, I won't bother with the
simple answers.
Others may be less intollerant of the 'chip on your shoulder'
and may 'cast their pearls'.....but not me.
#Post#: 4210--------------------------------------------------
Re: Election of Grace
By: Laurie Date: March 20, 2013, 7:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote=George]Another way to say it is become aware, When one
realizes there is no solution but Love.
When one can break that survival of the fittest animal mentality
and realize we are all gods worthy of unconditional Love.
[/quote]
I see people every day who aren't lead by a 'survival of the
fittest' mindset---but, I'm pretty sure none would consider
themselves a god. Most are just nice, kind people who probably
never had a thought that they need to awaken themselves.
[quote=George]This is where I would say the evolution of
religion has taken a sick turn in order to make one have this
mentality in order for the extreme need for salvation, which IMO
is a false dogma/doctrine.[/quote]
I would say it depends on what the religion teaches about how
one is saved, and from what one needs saved.
I don't believe one is saved from eternal torment, or any sort
of 'penalty of sin'.
I believe it is sin itself (not the penalty) from which one
needs saved.
I don't believe one needs saved to escape death....I believe one
needs saved out of the state of death in which they are already
involved.
I don't believe that one can save himself, or that one can
awaken himself....I believe God did, does, and will do it.
[quote=George]How does a new born baby go from a precious little
blessing this little bundle of Life, to maturing into a dead
human?
[/quote]
Selfishness? Lust? Carnal-mindedness? Thinking that the creation
or themselves is a god?
I'm pretty sure that all serial killers, mass murderers, and
rapists were once precious babies, just like me....and I believe
He loves them just as He loves me.
[quote=George]Or on a Spiritual level to say we are born
spiritually dead, yet some say an infant can remember being with
God. Or I have heard that infants sometimes still have a
connection to God. So how could they be Spiritually
dead?[/quote]
I think it very possible that very young children have a
connection to God.
How do they die spiritually?
I think, probably the same way all come into that death
state....being lead astray by the crafty beast.
[quote=George]To say people in there human bodies are dead is
confusing to me. I am not sure what is meant by that?[/quote]
Maybe the story of the prodigal son would help you understand?
[quote=George]That is similar to how Christopher Hitchens talks
about this idea that we are born sick then commanded to get
well, Or born with this huge load on our backs yet expected to
walk upright. How could this be part of a master plan from a
Loving god to burden humanity with these type of scenarios?
Would you put a 50 lb. back pack on your infant child and expect
them to be able to learn how to walk upright? Should we think
that God would do that to us? Or even worse believe he would do
that and then punish us if we aren't able to walk upright, or
make ourselves well?[/quote]
If that's what Hitchen's believes about God....he needs
awakened. LOL!
#Post#: 4212--------------------------------------------------
Re: Election of Grace
By: George Date: March 20, 2013, 8:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mike link=topic=419.msg4208#msg4208
date=1363760426]
George,
All your 'challenges' are very easily answered within the
Christian faith, but because IMO you are 'hell bent' on
rejecting the Christian faith period, I won't bother with the
simple answers.
Others may be less intollerant of the 'chip on your shoulder'
and may 'cast their pearls'.....but not me.
[/quote]
Dear friend,
You never fail to put a smile on my face! I would probably
prefer that you keep your pearls, I might mistake them for
stones and think you are actually enjoying stoning me.
#Post#: 4214--------------------------------------------------
Re: Election of Grace
By: George Date: March 20, 2013, 10:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Laurie link=topic=419.msg4210#msg4210
date=1363783869]
I see people every day who aren't lead by a 'survival of the
fittest' mindset---but, I'm pretty sure none would consider
themselves a god. Most are just nice, kind people who probably
never had a thought that they need to awaken themselves.
[/quote]
I will take from your opening statement that in your
understanding it is wrong to think of ourselves as gods. Why or
where did you get this idea?
As for your every day people, my guess is that these people are
Loving caring people, You don't think at some point in life they
realized it is better to Love than to be selfish? Just speaking
from experience, I know for me, after lots of painful mistakes I
realized that I was bringing this pain onto myself by being
selfish. Not choosing to Love.
[quote author=Laurie link=topic=419.msg4210#msg4210
date=1363783869]
I would say it depends on what the religion teaches about how
one is saved, and from what one needs saved.
[/quote]
I agree; but as we cant go into every individual aspect of each
denomination I just refer to the most common dogmas/doctrines,
and teachings. Again from experience I can say every single
church I have attended claim I needed to be saved from hells
fire.
[quote author=Laurie link=topic=419.msg4210#msg4210
date=1363783869]
I don't believe one is saved from eternal torment, or any sort
of 'penalty of sin'.
I believe it is sin itself (not the penalty) from which one
needs saved.
I don't believe one needs saved to escape death....
[/quote]
So you don't believe the most common teachings of Abrahamic
religion? Christendom and Islam being the main two both teach of
hells fire. And that we are in need of salvation from that being
our final destination. If that is what you are saying I say I
agree!
[quote author=Laurie link=topic=419.msg4210#msg4210
date=1363783869]
I believe one needs saved out of the state of death in which
they are already involved.
[/quote]
Could you break that down for me? Saved out of a state of death,
in which we are already involved in. How did we get involved?
Where we born into it? It was something we chose after a certain
age? Or are you saying we need to be saved from this world in
which death is inevitable?
[quote author=Laurie link=topic=419.msg4210#msg4210
date=1363783869]
I don't believe that one can save himself, or that one can
awaken himself....I believe God did, does, and will do it.
[/quote]
So if one isn't saved or if one never sees the light, it is not
there fault. It was God's choice not to save them?
[quote author=Laurie link=topic=419.msg4210#msg4210
date=1363783869]
Selfishness? Lust? Carnal-mindedness? Thinking that the creation
or themselves is a god?
I'm pretty sure that all serial killers, mass murderers, and
rapists were once precious babies, just like me....and I believe
He loves them just as He loves me.
[/quote]
I would say that these are the affects of forgetting one's true
nature. If those serial killer and rapists would have looked at
there victims as equals, That ye are all gods. Then they would
have not done those horrendous acts. This reminds me of what a
Muslim said one time, the Jews and Romans who spit in Jesus
face, nailed him to a cross, stabbed him in his side with a
spear, Did they think they were doing this to God or a god? Of
course not. The Romans thought of men as being greater or lesser
in power or ability would make them gods. Or qualify them as
gods. I think they failed to realize we are all gods. We are all
equal
[quote author=Laurie link=topic=419.msg4210#msg4210
date=1363783869]
I think it very possible that very young children have a
connection to God.
How do they die spiritually?
I think, probably the same way all come into that death
state....being lead astray by the crafty beast.
[/quote]
This was a very eye opening statement and I understand your
concept I think, Just as Jesus was born, died, and resurrected.
So to must we be born alive, die(To self), and be reborn. I
agree with a slight twist in that I think death is a bit
dramatic. A good pitch for the hot gospel-er! To me it is more
about being born precious and fully aware of our true nature and
then losing ourselves along the way, or falling asleep,
forgetting your true nature. Then that is where Jesus brings
salvation in that he shows us, he reminds us that we are to
Love. If someone asks for your jacket, give them your shirt as
well. If someone asks you to walk a mile, walk three. In most
cases it is best if we can turn the other cheek. Again it was
the supposed words of Jesus himself who said "does it not say in
your law books that ye are gods" Was he rebuking them? Or was he
condemning them? Not how I read it. I read it that he is
reminding them, Hey doesn't your law even say ye are gods. Now
some will say he was quoting Psalms and was talking to the Jews.
Maybe; but are we not all sons/ daughters of Adam and Eve? Or
Noah and his wife? Are we not all equal?
[quote author=Laurie link=topic=419.msg4210#msg4210
date=1363783869]
Maybe the story of the prodigal son would help you understand?
[/quote]
The loss son, the loss coin, and the loss sheep. Did the father
say his son was dead? I will have to go reread that story he may
have.
[quote author=Laurie link=topic=419.msg4210#msg4210
date=1363783869]
If that's what Hitchen's believes about God....he needs
awakened. LOL!
[/quote]
No that is exactly why Hitchens was an atheist, He didn't
believe in a god like that. Unfortunately that was his
understanding of the teachings of religion and rightfully so, I
may say. It is the fundamental most common understanding in
Christendom that we are born sinners. So we cant deny his point
as if he was some moron blabbering about things he didn't know.
He was very educated, far more than myself! And he said he
actually enjoyed reading his bible, and knew it very well. He is
physically dead now so any further awakening will have to be
done in his next lifetime.
I really do enjoy your perspectives and I respect your beliefs I
am in no way trying to say I am right or that you should agree
with me. This is my understanding and where I am at, at this
moment in my journey. I know I am not 100% correct by any means
and accept that I could be 100% wrong. If so and it is God who
does the awakening, the saving, then I can just hope that He
will one day decide to save me.
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