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#Post#: 2598--------------------------------------------------
Spiritualism
DIR By: Justin Mangonel
Date: December 13, 2012, 1:29 am
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Dear All,
I was reading a website a couple of days ago. It was describing
a certain spiritual experience and doing so quite accurately.
It was not Christian though but obviously a site devoted to
Spiritualism. It occurred to me that these people might be
getting their info not just from demons but perhaps from angels
too. I had really never thought about it but perhaps angels do
interact with the unsaved if they are open to it. In fact a
significant amount of what they say they experience does happen
in Christianity when the Spirit starts moving. It was a very
interesting read and made me think that even though they are
mixed up in some fairly significant ways they still have some
truth.
#Post#: 2630--------------------------------------------------
Re: Spiritualism
DIR By: Kerry
Date: December 15, 2012, 5:53 am
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--- Quote ---
> I was reading a website a couple of days ago. It was
describing a certain spiritual experience and doing so quite
accurately.
--- End Quote ---
Could you be a little more specific?
--- Quote ---
> It was not Christian though but obviously a site devoted to
Spiritualism. It occurred to me that these people might be
getting their info not just from demons but perhaps from angels
too. I had really never thought about it but perhaps angels do
interact with the unsaved if they are open to it.
--- End Quote ---
The "unsaved"? How do we know who will be saved, but never mind
that.
Hard to say if I can't read the site; but I've known people of
other traditions that had a better sense of the spiritual world
than most Christians. I also wonder if you have ever talked to
angels or demons? I've talked with both. Many Christians would
not believe that people can talk to the weather elementals
although Jesus spoke to the wind; but to many Christians, that
makes no sense. How would you classify those? I can't classify
them directly as angels or demons, although broadly speaking you
could say they are angelic forces. However the weather
elemental spirits (they're not really "spirits" of fire, but
people call them that) can become angry if around angry people.
What about the Guardian Spirits of animals? Each human being
has his or her own Spirit; but animals have one per species.
Yes, I've talked to a few of those too.
--- Quote ---
> In fact a significant amount of what they say they experience
does happen in Christianity when the Spirit starts moving. It
was a very interesting read and made me think that even though
they are mixed up in some fairly significant ways they still
have some truth.
--- End Quote ---
My experience is that Christians are mixed up as other religions
if maybe not more so. I daresay if you asked a Taoist priest
about the dragon of the water and the dragon of the earth, you
would get a more sensible answer than if you asked a Christian
minister about the beast of the water and the beast of the
earth.
You might also get a sensible explanation from a Buddhist about
why some beings in Revelation are associated with "rainbows."
If you compare Gautama's experience "under" the tree, you might
find a parallel to Jesus "on" the tree. I wish I could find the
essay again; but I once read an essay on the Crucifixion by a
Hindu, and I thought it one of the finest pieces on the subject
I ever read.
And when you say "the Spirit starts moving," I've been in
churches where they said the Spirit was moving, but I thought it
was demonic. The first time I experienced that was when very
young, probably about six. The story is so astounding, you may
not believe it; but I'll tell you if you like.
I also chatted on another site (which allowed both Christians
and non-Christians) with a mixed up atheist-Satanist kid whose
parents forced him to attend church. By the time I was done
talking to him, I think I had believing in God but also
convinced that his parents' church was demon-infested. I could
describe how church made him feel without him telling me. A
good kid, I thought -- but turned off by what he instinctively
could feel was wrong.
#Post#: 2634--------------------------------------------------
Re: Spiritualism
DIR By: George
Date: December 15, 2012, 11:10 am
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--- Quote from: Kerry link ---
>
> The first time I experienced that was when very young,
probably about six. The story is so astounding, you may not
believe it; but I'll tell you if you like.
>
--- End Quote ---
I would like to hear it...
#Post#: 2637--------------------------------------------------
Re: Spiritualism
DIR By: Kerry
Date: December 15, 2012, 12:48 pm
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Some background description is needed. The event happened at a
camp meeting not in a tent but under this wooden structure we
called a tabernacle. The front of the building was enclosed
against the weather by outside walls, but the other three sides
were open to the air if it was good weather; and if it was
raining, there were pieces of roofing that could be swung down
on two sides to keep a driving rain out. The day this happened
was good weather so you could walk in and out of the building on
three sides. There were three rows of wood benches placed on
concrete, so there were two aisles going up and down the
building.
Once a year on the last day of services, a large band came to
play; and this was such an event for this rural area, that
people brought folding chairs because they knew all the wood
benches wouldn't be enough to seat everyone. They would put some
chairs on both sides of all the three rows of benches, crowding
the aisles to about a foot and a half. You could still walk,
but it was crowded. People would also put chairs in the front
of the building between the front benches and the altar. The
band itself was so big, it filled the stage and most of the area
around the altar; so there was only room at the front for a few
more rows of chairs, again leaving only a narrow area to walk
in. This band also played as loud as they could, I think, since
my aunt who lived about a mile away could sit outside on her
porch and hear it.
The meetings were not officially Pentecostal, but they had
elements of Pentecostalism. I never heard anyone speaking in
tongues in the church I grew up in or in these meetings held in
the tabernacle; but "shouting" happened from time to time, and
sometimes people would run around the building when shouting.
I never enjoyed these things; and this particular day, when a
woman started to shout and run around, I felt very uncomfortable
as if something was wrong and I didn't know what. I'd never seen
this woman before; and that was not unusual since there were
lots of people there I'd never seen before.
I believed what I had been taught that it was the Spirit moving;
but I still felt something was amiss. So I prayed because I
didn't like it and wanted it to stop. I prayed, "Oh God, I don't
know if this is from you or not; but if it isn't, could you make
that woman fall down?"
Sure enough, a few minutes later, she fell down and she didn't
get up. She just lay on the floor until the band ended the
number. No one got up to see what was going on. It was a scene,
to be sure. The minister took the stage and asked her to get up
and return to her seat. She just lay there. This is where the
story gets even stranger.
The minister then asked if there was anyone there with her; and
a man said he had come with her; and that's when we learned the
woman was blind. Even if she stood up, she couldn't find her
way back to her seat, so the man said. So the minister asked him
to go help her up and back to her seat. The man went over and
talked a bit, but she still didn't get up. The minister asked
again; and that's when the man said a strap on her shoe had
broken and that was why she had fallen down. So then he helped
her up and back to her seat, and the band resumed playing.
Blind? She had been running up one aisle, out of the back of
the building onto the ground and back into the building down the
other aisle and in between chairs of the audience and the chairs
of the band at the front; and she had done this several times.
It would have seemed like a miracle for a sighted person to have
done it without all the chairs making the walking space so
narrow; and I wouldn't have wanted to run about in those narrow
areas with my eyes open and seeing where I was going. She had
done it blind; and there is no way she could have been using
reflected sound to guide her. Some blind people can do that;
but the sound of the band would have drowned out any tiny sounds
she could have made and the echoes reflected back.
My conclusion was that it was demonic and that an angel made her
shoe strap break in answer to my prayer. On the way home in
our car, I told my Mother about it. I said, "Mommy, you know
that woman that fell down?" She said, "Yes, what about it? It
was an accident, wasn't it?" I said, "I'm not sure. I thought
something was wrong and I prayed for her to fall down if it
wasn't from God, and then she fell down." My Mother was
horrified, "That was a terrible thing to pray for, Kerry." I
said, "God didn't have to answer me if I was wrong to pray for
that." My Mother paused for about ten seconds and then said,
"Perhaps you're right."
I know it's hard to believe a blind woman could do that and
that she would fall down over a broken shoe strap, but I saw it
happen. I have other stories, but none so astounding. Should I
tell them? I can also talk a little about my conversations with
the atheist-Satanist and how he knew I knew what I was talking
about.
#Post#: 2640--------------------------------------------------
Re: Spiritualism
DIR By: George
Date: December 15, 2012, 1:38 pm
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--- Quote from: Kerry link ---
>
> I have other stories, but none so astounding. Should I tell
them? I can also talk a little about my conversations with the
atheist-Satanist and how he knew I knew what I was talking
about.
>
--- End Quote ---
You know how I am I enjoy hearing of all experiences... If you
care to share I certainly enjoy reading!!!
#Post#: 2646--------------------------------------------------
Re: Spiritualism
DIR By: Kerry
Date: December 15, 2012, 7:30 pm
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Was the church infected by demons? I'd say so. My Mother
started going mentally ill after the death of her Mother. The
first sign was when she thought the end of the world was coming
one day when airplanes went over head at a very low altitude.
Maybe she thought it was the begnning of Armageddon or
something; but she made me and my three sisters go to the
basement. Perhaps she was sincere, but what good would that
have done? But that was nothing compared to what happened
later. She was convinced one evening that Jesus was coming.
Totally sure about it. She told me and my sisters to go out in
the front yard and stand facing east and wait for Jesus to show
up since she said the Bible said he would appear in the east.
None of us believed her; but we also didn't want to disobey her
outright, so we went out and stood in the yard. The pastor
seldom drove by our house; but luck would have it he did that
evening. When he saw us all standing in the yard and staring at
the east, he stopped to see what was going on. Poor man! He
was so kind about it. He told my Mother maybe Jesus was coming,
but the Bible also said no one knew the day or hour so she
couldn't be sure. He asked her to believe that part of the
Bible and let us all go back into the house. She agreed.
Within a short while, my Mother was so mentally off, it was
clear she needed to be hospitalized. The thing I knew about was
one day when I was upstairs, my Grandfather came to visit. I
could hear the conversation downstairs. For some reason, my
Mother was on the floor and wouldn't get up; and my Grandfather
kept begging her to get up. I think it was the day after
perhaps two days later she was admitted to the local hospital
and then transferred to a mental facililty. She was taking her
clothes off and didn't want to put them back on. I never saw
that, but I was told.
My Mother was a good person. I know that. But I also think
religion helped drive her crazy. I told myself never to let
that happen to me; and with all the religious experiences I've
had, I've always questioned my own perceptions.
-------------------------------------
There was another experience a few years later in the same
tabernacle when I was in high school. This meeting had fewer
people in it, being a week night service. Anyone familiar with
"altar calls" in churches will probably know the type of
atmosphere the minister evokes during the service and then uses
to motivate people to go forward during altar call. At this
particular meeting, when the pastor started, I decided was tired
of it. I didn't believe it was from God and I didn't like the
feeling it gave my body, particularly in my heart. So I sat
there refusing to believe anything that could happen would be
from God. I don't remember praying in this situation.
The minister was trying to evoke it but couldn't; and after
about ten minutes, he looked straight at me and said, "The
Spirit is not moving tonight. Someone here is full of unbelief
and stopping the Spirit from moving." I was looking him in the
eye too; and without shifting my gaze, I smiled at him.
Why did I smile? I was one person. The place was filled with
people who did believe. How could I, one person, stifle things?
Not a very powerful Holy Spirit, was it?
The pastor then went on to talk about how Jesus couldn't perform
miracles when people did not believe; but that wasn't right. In
that case, most of the people didn't believe. I was just one
person.
---------------
My Mother got readmitted to the mental facilty; and this time,
she had a better doctor, one who didn't use electroshock on her.
That electroshock did something to her permanently. She was
never quite as alive as she had been before. It also did
something to her body's electrical field. What I'm about to
say is impossible physically unless there is a huge electical
charge outside an electrical outlet; but I saw a flash of
electricity arc out of the outlet and hit my Mother. The only
way that is possible is if her body had a big electrical charge.
There are not enough volts in household electricity to jupm
that far -- it was about six to eight inches. The odd thing is
she didn't remember it happening -- most electro-shock
treatments do jumble up memories, and this shock left her
without any memory of it happening. My youngest sister was
there too and saw and heard it; but odds are she's forgotten
about it by now -- but I surely never did.
-------------------------
Things did improve when my Mother finally left that church and
started attending the church my Grandmother had.
--------------------------------
Perhaps next I'll tell about my evening at an area convention of
another denomination which has a facilty fairly close to where I
live now.
#Post#: 2656--------------------------------------------------
Re: Spiritualism
DIR By: Kerry
Date: December 15, 2012, 9:35 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Let me postpone discussing the Pentecostal conference. I also
am backtracking a bit here and there.
It was only a few years ago I asked my oldest sister about the
circumstances of my birth. There was something that didn't make
sense to me because of the memories I had. So I asked her about
it. I was born at home and my oldest sister was there. My
Mother would have died if the doctor hadn't arrived; but even
after I was "out" and breathing, I just lay there without
moving. That made complete sense to me, since my memory was
that I didn't take control of the body until after the body was
born. I had my reasons. That is unusual. Most spirits take
control far sooner. I can remember watching my pregnant Mother
from the outside.
I can also remember being in a playpen in the living room one
day when my Mother was in the kitchen cooking. I did not want to
be in it; and suddenly I wasn't. I was in the doorway between
the rooms looking at my body in the playpen. The sun was coming
in a window behind the playpen -- it was about two in the
afternoon judging from where I can remember the sun being.
It somewhat amazes me that other people forget so much from
childhood; but I suppose there is a reason for it. I knew I had
been in the hospital when two to have my tonsils removed since I
had been told; but little did I know that when my Grandmother
was dying and I was allowed to visit her that she would be in
the exact same hospital room. I didn't say anything until later
in the car on the way home. I asked my Mother if it was the
same room; and she said it was. I said I thought so because I
could remember it. She said I couldn't possibly remember, that I
was inventing it in my mind although it happened to be true. I
started telling her the things I remembered. My bed was by the
door on the right -- not where my Grandmother's bed was at the
back of the room. The thing I hated about it was this green
wool blanket. Why did they put that on a child? It scratched
me, and I wished they'd take it away. I also remembered them
leaving me for a while on a bed out in the hall before taking me
to a room; and I hated that too. All the people walking back
and forth past me were annoying.
I think I've told before how I decided to see if I could curse a
tree the way Jesus had after I heard that story in Sunday
school. I still regret doing that since he bought two trees and
wanted them both; and they weren't my trees. But the one I
cursed died and the other didn't. I was so young then, I think
I can forgive myself; and I vowed never to do that to things
that belonged to other people.
One day I was outside playing when I became aware of a spirit
above me in the sky looking at me. It wasn't my Grandmother
either. I could tell when it was her. I couldn't tell who this
was who was looking at me and interested in me. I did pick up
an idea from it however; and it was a very odd idea. Very hard
for a young mind to grasp, especially since I had been taught
things to the contrary. A few years later, my Mother stopped to
visit a woman who had travelled to another country; and this
woman gave me a book about a certain person. I asked why she
was giving it to me. It was a very odd gift to give to a child.
This woman said mysteriously that someday I'd understand. I
finally did, but it took probably thirty years before those two
strange experiences made sense. When things did fall into place,
I knew something for sure. Other strange things also fell into
place.
I can't remember now if this was in second or third grade; but I
never studied the spelling words. I knew how to spell! Why
study then? It's very strange that I never had to study English
much; but I find foreign languages very baffling and although
I've studied several, I'm no good in any of them. But English
spelling was a breeze. Or it was until one day when the teacher
mispronounced a word. The word was "league" but she said "lig."
That's how they said it around there; and I didn't know what a
lig was but took a shot at it and got it wrong. So after that,
I would glance at the words to make sure I knew which ones were
on the list.
-------------------------
When older, the pastor died and we had been talking about the
future of the church, suddenly I just knew who the new pastor
would be. So I told my Mother, "Hey Mommy, I know who the new
pastor will be." I gave her the name. It was the man who was a
pastor in a church near to us; and my Mother said that was
impossible since he already had a church. I said I didn't know
about that, but I thought he'd be our new pastor. He was. I
think I alarmed my Mother at times. So even when young, I had
some kind of ability to connect with non-physical intelligent
beings outside myself.
My mental abilities did not develop much though until I quit
being a Christian and began studying other religions and magic.
I never practiced magic formally but did a lot of reading on
it. My abililty to talk to non-physical beings picked up when I
took up reading Tarot cards. I suppose I could still do it if I
wanted; but it doesn't interest me, and I'm not interested in
developing a working relationship with another "elemental
spirit." They have their limitations and pitfalls. Divining
the future using such means doesn't interest me much; and
neither does reading the Bible trying to divine the future.
Perhaps I should go into detail about how Tarot reading
developed for me, what results I got and why I gave it up
eventually.
#Post#: 2661--------------------------------------------------
Re: Spiritualism
DIR By: George
Date: December 16, 2012, 9:23 am
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Hi, Kerry
All your experiences are very interesting... I have such few
and vague memories about even being a young child... I do know a
few people who can remember things from toddler age... I have
had a couple severe head injuries, one that put me in the
hospital for a few days with a concussion, internal bleeding and
blood clots in my brain... I've always wondered if that is why I
cant hardly remember things... Some thing I remember clearly but
very few!!! Thanks for sharing... I do enjoy hearing these
things...
#Post#: 2667--------------------------------------------------
Re: Spiritualism
DIR By: guest6
Date: December 16, 2012, 4:13 pm
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Kerry, I wish I had your courage to relate experiences like
this. Maybe one day I will. This is a subject that I want to
talk about but always decide not to for different reasons.
#Post#: 2668--------------------------------------------------
Re: Spiritualism
DIR By: Kerry
Date: December 16, 2012, 9:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Heartsong link ---
>
> Kerry, I wish I had your courage to relate experiences like
this. Maybe one day I will. This is a subject that I want to
talk about but always decide not to for different reasons.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, there is the always the danger of people ridiculing things.
I don't mind people being skeptical about my explanations --
I'm skeptical myself of my own explanations at times. But
people can be close-minded too and not interested in trying to
understand.
Some of that is fear, perhaps -- wanting to ridicule instead of
struggling to find out what's at the bottom of things. With
some religion, some people believe if they doubt something came
from God, God will be angry with them. They feel this way
despite the fact that Paul said to test all the spirits. To
me, there is no bigger red flag than when someone is afraid to
doubt his own interpretation of things for fear God will be
angry.
Once I had a spirit show up, and I thought it was Jesus. I
wasn't sure. I'll admit I was a little afraid of offending
Jesus by saying I doubted it was really him. It turned out it
was him. He wasn't angry with me. He was glad I had listened
to Paul and tested my perceptions. I was doubting my own
senses, knew I could be fooled if I wasn't careful. I wasn't
doubting Jesus or his goodness. Any spirit that gets
threatening when asked about where it came from or who it is is
not from God, that's for sure.
Someone who thinks he's going to get punished by God for
doubting this or that is also probably under the influence of a
spirit that is trying to keep him deceived by using fear.
That's what I think. The Bible says God has not given us the
spirit of fear, and we should know that even if the Bible
didn't say it.
If you ever want to relate things but want to keep them off
search engines so only people here can read them, I can set up a
group or blog area where only people you choose can join and
read.
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