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#Post#: 2247--------------------------------------------------
What is the reason the communes fail?
By: Justin Mangonel Date: December 1, 2012, 5:16 pm
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Dear All,
I believe that the reasons that communes fail is that the people
who attempt to live with all things in common lack the spiritual
experience from God that makes it possible to do it in the first
place. In other words we cannot live like they did in the book
of Acts without experiencing the same experience that they did
which made having all things in common a natural act. They came
into the experience of Tabernacles which is Divine Love. After
they felt that flow through them they wanted to live together
and share everything.
#Post#: 2254--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the reason the communes fail?
By: Runner Date: December 1, 2012, 11:04 pm
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Justin..They don't all fail. As said earlier we ourselves lived
in community for many, many years. Then, because of legalism and
control which was not of the anointing, we opted out.
I know of 7 communities that are still alive and well...which is
now 40 years later!
I couldn't call that "failing."
The one we lived on in 1976- is still there. We haven't visited
these last number of years...but I am still in contact with many
of them.
[quote]I believe that the reasons that communes fail is that the
people who attempt to live with all things in common lack the
spiritual experience from God that makes it possible to do it in
the first place[/quote]
I can't agree with that either. Most members that I know could
knock any regular local Church Christian into a cocked hat!!
No, the ones that failed were usually 1)through pride...when one
elder wants to be the lead elder, so there becomes power
struggles.
But...for the most part 2) through legalism....just like the
Shepherding Movement (Charles Simpson, Bob Mumford, Don
Basham..etc etc NOT they they 'lived together' like we did.)
It starts well, then again power takes over and the lead
ministries try to make the people obey all that they say and lay
down as 'rules'. And demanding submission.
The leadership of the Holy Spirit goes out of the window when
man "put's his hand to the Ark."
Then you start hear the murmurs... "They will want to choose the
brand of toilet paper we use next." And the glory cloud lifts.
But ,I've been blessed to have seen the glory, I bet that more
than most people have seen.
For sure they are not perfect, but in a struggle and if my back
were against the wall...I would rather have one of them stand
with me shoulder to shoulder ,than any old Joe who calls
themselves Christians from the local church...they haven't a
clue.
I think that is one reason we are soured against " Church" as it
is. The people who attend 'talk-it', but have no idea at all how
to "walk-it". I have never found the same quality of believers
outside the Movement that we were in....not anywhere. 'Having
once tasted...'
But, a few bad apples can cause much havoc.
How many people do you know personally who have sold all and
moved into community? We know hundreds, probably thousands if
they were added all together. Only God sees the hearts and
intent.
The one thing I did learn is that we can sell all and move into
community "leaving the world behind...", but the trouble is,
just like the children of Israel, you can take the people out of
Egypt, but you can't take Egypt out of the people!! We all
dragged the 'old man' with us.
It was good, it was bad, it taught us much, but having oil lamp
lighting, using an outhouse and washing our clothes in a zinc
bathtub doesn't make you any more holy!! :D
Been there done that.
It fails because none of us are really dead-to-self yet.
I do think the communities probably have a better shot at it
though " the world" does somewhat lose it's grip. And there MUST
be a great level of love and transparency. When it works it is
wonderful.
I think true death to self is the only answer......I do at least
know a handfull of people who just may 'be there'. Sadly, I am
not one of them and neither is my Dave ::)
Just..[IMG]
HTML http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy76/kattsue_2009/smilies2/th2cents.gif[/img]
Blessings...H
#Post#: 2257--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the reason the communes fail?
By: Justin Mangonel Date: December 2, 2012, 1:00 am
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Dear Runner,
I respect your testimony because you have been there and done
that.
I guess what I am saying is that without the Tabernacles
experience that I believe pervaded the Church a Jerusalem it is
not possible to have all things in common and have it work long
term. You said that some are working even 40 years later and I
think that is great.
I am having difficultly putting this into words here. What
happened in the early church was the natural follow on of the
outpouring of an experience that I believe is the New Testament
spiritual fulfillment of the Old testament Feast of Tabernacles.
It was Divine Love that them to a place where having all things
in common was just what everyone wanted to do. No one wanted to
be apart. To me this is different than reading about such an
experience and trying to emulate it because that was the way the
first century church lived.
The core of my theology is that I believe that experiencing God
should be put first and the theology follows. Eventually the
Spirit and the word must agree but we must be open to let God
define the scriptures and not our natural minds. Right now,
theology mostly dictates what people are allowed to experience
of God. Which I feel is putting the cart before the horse.
Sounds like you had a very interesting time of it. Is there
places I can read more about it?
God bless,
Justin
#Post#: 2259--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the reason the communes fail?
By: James Date: December 2, 2012, 2:16 am
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Like Helen Justin, I know of many who have not failed. I have
lived with a community of Christians for over 30 years. I now
live with my son and his two children as the others have moved
on, it being a natural progression of the Lord for another step
to be taken.
I think it might be you have not come into contact with those
communes that are still going strong.
Quote:-[color=black] To me this is different than reading about
such an experience and trying to emulate it because that was the
way the first century church lived.
What you are here saying is that living together can only work
if the Lord starts it and it does not come as a "good idea" from
the people themselves, I agree, it could be that is the reason
that those communities that are still alive and well are still
around.
Quote:- The core of my theology is that I believe that
experiencing God should be put first and the theology follows.
Justin as you say this is your theology your doctrine, there is
the root of the problem one makes a theology and then explains
it to others so that they then try to follow the doctrine to
reach the experience described.
There are some churches out there that must be powered by the
spirit but I see the same argument you use for the failing
communes can be used for the majority of churches today. They
have failed!
Just because the churches have failed it does not make the ones
who make up those churches a failure.
James [/color]
#Post#: 2266--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the reason the communes fail?
By: Kerry Date: December 2, 2012, 7:53 am
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My views may not be popular but I think they're right; so let me
venture into the conversation.
There is a misconception, popular in fact, that the early Church
were all communists, that it was required to sell all your
possessions and give the proceeds to the church. This is based
on the general statement:
Acts 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as
many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and
brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution
was made unto every man according as he had need.
36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which
is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of
the country of Cyprus,
37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at
the apostles' feet.
Does this really mean that they obliged to sell their land and
houses? I can see how a casual reading of the passage might
lead us to think so; but read what Peter said later:
Acts 5: 1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his
wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to
it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles'
feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to
lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the
land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was
sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived
this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto
God.
Here we learn that the arrangement was voluntary. These two
hypocrites were pretending to give the entire price they got
while holding some back. They wanted to look like the others
who did give all the proceeds for the collective good.
There's the problem, isn't it? On this earth, men like the idea
of communism if it guarantees them things if they need them, but
they also like to hold back and not care about the needs of
others. The Marx thought, "From each according to his ability,
to each according to his needs" in indeed a heavenly concept
which appeals to men; but on this earth, leaders use this idea
to entice others into giving up all their own while the leaders
get fat and powerful. Until the sheep are smart enough to pick
leaders who aren't out to fleece them, the idea is not practical
on earth except in closed communities.
Leaders must also be sharp enough to spot the people like
Ananias and Sapphira who try to work the system. Timothy was
having trouble with people -- young widows for one.
1 Timothy 5:11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have
begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first
faith.
13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house
to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies,
speaking things which they ought not.
14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children,
guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak
reproachfully.
And that was in a church where they didn't own everything in
common, but where people did contribute money to a common fund
to support the poor. We know that because of the earlier
passage:
4 But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn
first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for
that is good and acceptable before God.
5 Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God,
and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.
6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
7 And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.
8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of
his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an
infidel.
In that particular church, each family was expected to support
itself first, and then contribute money for the poor. We see
Paul also working himself to avoid being an undue financial
strain on others.
In this imperfect world, it is tempting people to sin by trying
to adopt communal living unless the rules are extremely clear.
Such communities do exist, of course. Some have existed for
years. The oldest ones are called abbeys and nunneries, and
in some of them the members of the order own absolutely nothing
of their own.
When a leader of a commune is tempted to act like a dictator to
the members, we see some of the worst abuses arising. Generally
speaking, I would say this can happen only when there is no
other greater authority than the leader of the commune. He
answers to no one and often expects others to accept his word as
if they came directly from the Throne of God.
The curious case of the Anabaptists in Germany and the
Netherlands soon showed the weakness of having someone have too
much control. It seems to have started with Melchior Hofman who
said the city of Munster would be the "New Jerusalem."
Bernard Rothman had only four wives while John of Leyden, the
"new king," had sixteen. I don't know if the story about his
beheading one of them is true or not. All this while preaching
communism where everyone owned everything in common.
Then it was the Catholics' turn when Franz von Saldockis
(Francis of Waldeck) decided to reclaim the city for the
Catholics -- and for himself since he was both Bishop and
temporal leader. The usual torture and executions followed. So
much for Melchior Hofman's proclamation of the "New Jerusalem."
It seems to me we should pray for the day when all live in peace
and harmony, but should also be content to let the Lord decide
when the kingdom comes. The best we can do at present is
establishing of pockets of communal living; and those often have
their perils.
Just in the news last week, I found yet more dismal details
about the FLDS compound in Texas which they named, "Yearning for
Zion."
Texas asked Wednesday to seize the West Texas ranch where it
says Warren Jeffs and members of his polygamist sect sexually
assaulted children.
The Texas attorney general's office filed a
search-and-seizure warrant in Schleicher County Court for the
1,600-acre property named Yearning for Zion and described in the
filings as "the suspected place."
Attached to the warrant is a 91-page affidavit by Marcos
Martinez, a peace officer with the attorney general's office. He
describes how the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-Day Saints used proceeds from illegal money laundering to
buy the ranch.
Church leaders did so to set up a "remote outpost where
they could insulate themselves from criminal prosecution for
sexually assaulting children," according to the affidavit.
"Affiant believes that the Priesthood Records, as detailed
above, demonstrate probable cause that Warren Steed Jeffs
orchestrated the purchase of the suspected place for the purpose
of facilitating and perpetrating criminal offenses, including
bigamy, sexual assault, and aggravated sexual assault," Martinez
added. "The suspected place and its improvements provided Jeffs
and other FLDS members a secure location where they could
obscure the fact that these serious felony crimes were being
perpetrated."
Read more at:
HTML http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/11/28/52641.htm
I would not say the Franciscan Order has failed. It's been
around for centuries as has the order founded by St. Clare the
friend of St. Francis/ The Order of St. Clare just celebrated
800 years this year.
I would say the Legion of Christ has failed miserably and even
criminally; and I am confounded why the Pope hasn't dismantled
it, giving its assets to more disciplined orders whose leaders
were not into drugs and child molesting. I don't care what
they say officially of their vocation, "We seek to imitate and
follow Jesus Christ by professing the religious vows of poverty,
chastity and obedience and by receiving the sacrament of Holy
Orders. Thus, we make ourselves fully available to serve God,
the Church and our brothers and sisters." Fine thoughts, but
how did it work out in practice? There was something wrong in
how the order was run if Maciel could get away with so much; and
the attempts to reform it have only dismayed several of the
good and sincere people still in it. In my opinion, they too
would be better off assigned to other orders.
#Post#: 2267--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the reason the communes fail?
By: Kerry Date: December 2, 2012, 8:20 am
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[quote author=Justin Mangonel link=topic=250.msg2257#msg2257
date=1354431656]
The core of my theology is that I believe that experiencing God
should be put first and the theology follows.[/quote]
I am astonished at this statement. Are you sure you phrased that
right?
Israel saw many miracles performed before they left Egypt and
camped at Succoth. They were baptized in the Pillar and the
sea. They were fed by manna from Heaven. They witnessed God at
Sinai. They surely experienced God in more wonderful ways than
most of us. Was it enough?
It was not. Nor could it be. The First Great Commandment is
not, "Thou shalt experience God." It is:
Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all
thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Experiencing God without the proper attitude ourselves can leave
us like the children of Israel who perished in the wilderness.
Did God forsake them? No, the Pillar still led them; but they
still did not enter the Land of Promise. Did dwelling in
booths help them? If they had had the right attitude, perhaps
it would have.
#Post#: 2289--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the reason the communes fail?
By: Justin Mangonel Date: December 2, 2012, 2:33 pm
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Dear Kerry,
Yes you read me right. We must experience God first before we
can accurately interpret what He wrote. It is the depth of our
personal relationship with Him that determines are ability to
understand Him. This does not come through study but through
prayer and worship and yielding to His still small voice. Those
who approach the study of God as an intellectual exercise
invariably miss the mark and become trapped in their own
reasoning.
The knowledge of good kills us just as surely as the knowledge
of evil. A ship must have wind to fill it's sails or else those
who use the rudder do so in vain.
Blessings,
Justin
#Post#: 2292--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the reason the communes fail?
By: bənê hāʼĕlōhîm
Date: December 2, 2012, 5:06 pm
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[quote author=Justin Mangonel link=topic=250.msg2289#msg2289
date=1354480422]
Those who approach the study of God as an intellectual exercise
invariably miss the mark and become trapped in their own
reasoning.
The knowledge of good kills us just as surely as the knowledge
of evil.
[/quote]
This must be why I struggle so much!!! I am more inclined to try
and understand things intellectually... I have a hard time with
this blind faith thing that some think is required to follow the
will of God... Would I be better off to just throw in the towel
and say I DON'T HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE of Good or bad??? Live Love
and Be Happy, Stop wasting time, and energy studying things that
will only kill???
#Post#: 2297--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the reason the communes fail?
By: Amadeus Date: December 2, 2012, 7:22 pm
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[quote]This must be why I struggle so much!!! I am more inclined
to try and understand things intellectually... I have a hard
time with this blind faith thing that some think is required to
follow the will of God... Would I be better off to just throw in
the towel and say I DON'T HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE of Good or bad???
Live Love and Be Happy, Stop wasting time, and energy studying
things that will only kill???[/quote]
[font=courier]Studying is not a complete waste of time. It is at
least done out of obedience to God to obtain His approval, even
if it is not to learn. It also, I believe, provides raw material
to be quickened within us.
"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth
not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." II Tim
2:15
When we study without being led by the Spirit of God:
"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many
books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the
flesh." Ecc 12:12
Learning comes from elsewhere:
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father
will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring
all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto
you." John 14:26
When we are obedient and read and study to obtain His approval
then perhaps the Spirit will have something to bring to Life
withn us:
"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not
of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but
the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6[/font]
#Post#: 2298--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the reason the communes fail?
By: Justin Mangonel Date: December 2, 2012, 7:29 pm
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Hi all,
Good word Amadeus.
I put down my Bible for at least ten years. I hardly read it.
I was so fully of theology that I could think straight. During
that time God started to speak to me and straighten me out.
Some of what I had been taught was incorrect but until I stepped
away from my theology and just spent time with Christ my mind
could not be healed.
Like Amadeus said, it matters a whole lot how you approach the
study of the word and it also matters why you are doing it. If
you study as the Holy Spirit leads and guides you then you have
a better chance at arriving at the truth.
Blessings,
Justin
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