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#Post#: 2109--------------------------------------------------
~ Can I Trust~
By: Runner Date: November 25, 2012, 12:50 pm
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Dave and I sat up very late again last night talking. I was
yapping on about the two different scriptures 2 Samuel 24:1-3
And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and
He moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
and...
1 Chronicles 21:1-3 And Satan stood up against Israel, and
provoked David to number Israel.
This story is the same time, same place, and the same people…it
'looks like' the enemy is the 'second cause', and that the enemy
is controlled by God…as we see in Job.
Which brought me back once more to the right and left hand of
God!!! I have visited here often before. ( It often frustrates
Dave LOL)
Not that I am laughing much. A week or so ago someone we know
was killed by a truck going through a red light. She was a
lovely lady, a teacher in a Christian school, well loved
etc..we've known her years. ( which got me back on the right and
left hand of God)
Then, last night late, we get a phone call form our eldest
daughter telling us that a dear couple that we are close to, (
she an awesome preacher, he just recovering( a word of faith
here) from two years of cancer treatment and horrific pain. Now
they heard at 12 in the morning that their eldest son ( married
with a child and another child due in two weeks) was killed in a
road "accident" and their younger son who was with him, is not
expected to live many hours. So, Dave and I stayed up late
talking again about the plans and actions of God, and His people
of faith.
"The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he
delighteth in his way" (Psalm 37:23). 'ordered' here means
"prearranged, fixed, ordained by God."
This means it is God, not the devil, who leads us into hard
places. I may say "Lord, why are You allowing this to continue?"
( I am sure our friends in Georgia are saying that today) But
not only does He allow our trial, but He does so deliberately.!!
I can see that God allows these hard things in our lives in
order to produce faith and fruit in us. He is shaping us into
vessels of faith, to be His light and reflection of this
heart...but it can be agony.
I have to believe that every step I take is ordained by our
heavenly Father and He would never lead me into a difficult
situation only to abandon me. He would not say, "Okay, I've
helped you up to this point. Now you're on your own."
I know that God is absolutely faithful to His children, in every
crisis. He is always asking us, "Will you also go back? Will
you be one I've been searching for, one who will not quit, who
will not accuse Me with abandoning and hurting My children? Will
you stand still in your circumstance and trust Me to see you
through?"
Being Still, and Knowing that I AM God.
#Post#: 2138--------------------------------------------------
Re: ~ Can I Trust~
By: Justin Mangonel Date: November 26, 2012, 7:36 pm
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Dear Runner,
It is difficult to harmonize things that do not seem to be good
at first glance. I remember that I read recently of the passing
of David Wilkerson through an auto accident much like what
happened to William Branham. I also remember news of the plane
crash that killed Keith Green and two of his children.
I admired all three of these men and wondered why God allowed
them to be taken in these ways at these times. To me it makes
no sense. I remember another time that a young woman named
Faith contracted lung cancer even though she had never smoked in
her life. Faith lay dying on her hospital bed as numerous
people laid hands on her believing for a death bed healing but
she passed anyway.
I understand your writing and many people believe that God does
lead us into difficult circumstances to test our faith and
purify us as gold. I am uncertain of this and have wondered
about this question often.
It may be that rather than God leading us into difficult
situations through allowing or actually causing them to happen
that we, as a body, are simply failing to walk in the Spirit.
I remember that a pastors wife said that she was driving by a
certain field and saw a man walking into it. She felt compelled
to stop her car and speak with him but because she was busy she
drove on. The next day she heard that a man had committed
suicide in a field in that same field.
Paul said that we fail to discern the Lord's body. This, to me,
means that we are not aware of what is going on in the Lord's
body and therefore people become sick and some even die. Could
it be that these terrible things happen, not because God allows
them or authors them, but because the members of His body fail
to listen to the Spirit? Perhaps, someone who is a believer had
a dream, or vision, or heard the Spirit speak a warning to them
but they did not do anything with it. Or perhaps the person was
warned by and angel or a spiritual goading but dismissed it as
just their imagination
I have difficulty believing that God allows or authors such
terrible things without first giving us warning. I remember I
was in a motor home and we stopped for the night in a small
open space in the middle of nowhere. I was tired but couldn't
seem to sleep. My bed was uncomfortable. So I got up and moved
the motor home a little bit thinking that I had parked unevenly.
It didn't help. So I got up again (this time a bit irritated)
and moved the motor home to the far side of the lot and finally
I felt like I could go to sleep. About 30 minutes later I heard
a crash and a loud scraping of metal on the asphalt. A car, at
high speed, had flipped and skidded top side down across the lot
and and crashed into the bushes. I went right through where I
had originally parked. Fortunately, the young man who was
driving was not seriously hurt but had we not have moved he
would have hit us head on.
Though it is tempting to say that God allows or authors terrible
trials my spiritual sense is that He does not unless there is
grievous sin He wishes to punish or avenge. When there is no
apparent reason for disaster it may be more proper to chalk them
up to the spiritual war that is raging all around us. Perhaps,
if the body of Christ were fully functional some part of it
would do something to thwart these terrible things.
I am not disparaging what you have said only offering another
way to think about these types of terrible and tragic events.
Sincerely,
Justin
#Post#: 2151--------------------------------------------------
Re: ~ Can I Trust~
By: bənę hāʼĕlōhîm
Date: November 26, 2012, 11:03 pm
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[quote author=Justin Mangonel link=topic=226.msg2138#msg2138
date=1353980176]
Though it is tempting to say that God allows or authors terrible
trials my spiritual sense is that He does not unless there is
grievous sin He wishes to punish or avenge.
[/quote]
I am not sure I follow here... Are you saying God punishes
people through means of disease and car crashes etc. etc. for
sin???
#Post#: 2152--------------------------------------------------
Re: ~ Can I Trust~
By: Justin Mangonel Date: November 26, 2012, 11:25 pm
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Dear George,
I am saying that most of the time God only authorizes judgement
when there is great sin. Say for instance the Canaanite
nations. We have the book of Job which teaches us that
sometimes God allows trials to come our way as a test even if we
have not sinned. However, I do not think this is the norm.
What I am saying is that when terrible things happen to
Christian believers it may be more a function of being in the
middle of a demonic war zone than God allowing our faith to be
tested. There may be land mines all around us but if we are led
by the Holy Spirit maybe we don't have to step on them. Perhaps
a senseless tragedy is simply a senseless tragedy that could
have been avoided in the body of Christ was fully functional and
walking in the spirit.
Sincerely,
Justin
#Post#: 2158--------------------------------------------------
Re: ~ Can I Trust~
By: Runner Date: November 27, 2012, 12:18 pm
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Thanks for that Justin, many good point there.
I see that in all our dealings, it is indeed a test of trust....
will I trust His Father heart, in spite of what I 'think' that I
know and see.
In this situation with the two young men ( 32 and 35) we now
hear that drink was involved!
Now we see the human factor and carnal choices come into play!
To me this makes the heart ache of our friends the the partent
even harder...I am sure they are beating themselves up with
questions...'why did they not stay walking with God and in His
ways' ...etc
And as said..who knows, maybe God did 'give a warning' , either
through the parents, or the wife, ( who is expecting her second
child very soon) .. " Hey guys, it's Thanksgiving, can't you
stay home and enjoy family time here?" Maybe they over-ruled a
prompting not to go "out on the town". God knows.
The unmarried one..the driver, is going to live. But will be
charged for vehicular homicide which he wakes up..and will find
he has made his sister in law a widow and her children
fatherless! Wow.
Now that I am over the shock of it, I know that all is not lost,
God always wins...it is just the price 'in-between" that hurts.
[quote]I admired all three of these men and wondered why God
allowed them to be taken in these ways at these times.[/quote]
I agree there.
David Wilkerson was an amazing man, we learned lots from his
messages and books. I didn't go all the way with him about
"judgement", but God will show him the balance face to face. :)
I know nothing of the why's or hows...about David W, or Keith G
...but with William Branham ,I believe he was 'taken early'
because of pride. When his followers kept puffing him up and
telling him he was this, that , and the other, he didn't say NO,
he accepted all the applause.
I think God took him for his own sake. ( we knew his close
friend Clayt Sonmore, now passed)
Kathrene Kulman said this about herself in her book ...( written
by Jamie Buckingham) she said that God told her she could do
mighty miracles, and would have a powerful ministry , if she
didn't touch (claim) the glory.
She was powerful for so many years, thousands were healed. Some
point she had medallions made to sell....with a cross on one
side and herself on the other...I think she saw this as the
place where she started to lose her anointing. She started to
fake some things.
She then got sick and hide it for months. She told Jamie- "
Write it all, write it all..the good , but also the bad..I took
His glory to myself.."
The Apostolic leader of the Sonship Movement we were in ..Sam
Fife (I am convinced) went the same way. At the last convention
he was at, he allowed some silly woman to go on and on about how
wonderful he was. As usual he stood up to close the meeting and
never corrected anything she had said ( which was done when
someone had preached something 'not quite on')
I jumped up ran to the back and found his wife, I was afraid for
him and told her so.
I said Lee - "they are trying to make him a king...stop them,
make a correction or it will kill him." ( thinking of William
Branham)
She just smiled and said- " Helen don't worry, they can offer
him a crown, but as long as he doesn't accept it, no harm will
come."
Two months later while flying down to South America to preach,
he flew into a mountain in the fog. I believe God took him to
Himself , because I believe, Sam 'touched His glory'.
For sure, we can never know of the dealing of Father in some one
else's life...we cannot see behind the scenes.
Whoops, so sorry for rambling on here and reminiscing!! :o
#Post#: 2159--------------------------------------------------
Re: ~ Can I Trust~
By: Justin Mangonel Date: November 27, 2012, 12:36 pm
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Dear Runner,
Read a bit about Sam. Seems He and I agree on somethings. It
is so difficult to find these moves of God. Another one I ran
into was "the Walk." I think God has been trying to birth the
Tabernacles revelation since the beginning of the church.
#Post#: 2162--------------------------------------------------
Re: ~ Can I Trust~
By: Runner Date: November 27, 2012, 12:54 pm
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Because we are old now ( in our 70's) we have been about a bit!
LOL
We also had dealing with people from 'The Walk'.
Steven's, another good leader who 'went off the rails!' :'(
Our friend Bill Greer was one of the lead ministries in 'The
Walk', he left back in the 80's when Steven's started going-
sideways and Bill came to us in 'The Move'.
What a wonderful prophet group 'The Walk' was.
Bill Greer is still in 'The Move' (Sam Fife's movement...now
headed up by Buddy Cobb) Today Bill is still heading up a
community up in Alaska. He dropped his 'gifting' when joining
The Move.
What a waste! As I said in a different thread, in the Move it
was all third feast, a 'seer' is considered Second Feast.
I must say in all my life I have never seen such a gifting as
Bill's first hand.
When meeting me for the first time , he read my pedigree
instantly. He never pulls a punch, went straight for the gut. It
did the job. After shaking hands with my husband, he turned and
whispered to me "Is he really as good as I feel he is?"
Obviously his counselling of people was spot on, and so helpful
( he mellowed his "go straight for the gut" approach )
But, like I say, he let it all go now that he is in a "Third
Feast Company".
To me a great loss.
But, sorry, rambling again. :)
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