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#Post#: 35315--------------------------------------------------
Jesus and Suicide
By: KerimF Date: September 11, 2025, 7:46 am
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Please correct me if I am wrong. A human commits a suicide if he
has a choice to stay alive, but he decided instead to let his
body die.
Now the crucial question is:
Wasn't Jesus able to save his life instead of submitting without
any sort of resistance to his killers? Jesus wasn't taken by
surprise because He knew in advance of their intention.
If, on the day of Crucifixion, Jesus had no power to save His
life, he would be just a man, not God.
But, Jesus did what He said:
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his
life for his friends."
I understand that, in all religions, suicide is a sinful act.
But Jesus showed us that suicide could be an act of true love
too.
For example, one of the reasons for which my friend (we knew
each other for around 65 years, since we were 10 years old)
killed himself lately, was to let me have a better live
(relative to my nature).
The reason I started this topic is to show that if a Christian
preacher (who claims that Jesus is God) insists that suicide is
always a sin, if not a mortal one, he also confirms that, in
reality, he believes (unlike his claim) that Jesus was just a
powerless man and didn’t have God’s Power (not God). In other
words, that preacher has joined those who said: “He saved
others; himself he cannot save”.
#Post#: 35316--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jesus and Suicide
By: Kerry Date: September 11, 2025, 7:52 pm
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[quote author=KerimF link=topic=1598.msg35315#msg35315
date=1757594798]
Please correct me if I am wrong. A human commits a suicide if he
has a choice to stay alive, but he decided instead to let his
body die.
Now the crucial question is:
Wasn't Jesus able to save his life instead of submitting without
any sort of resistance to his killers? Jesus wasn't taken by
surprise because He knew in advance of their intention.
If, on the day of Crucifixion, Jesus had no power to save His
life, he would be just a man, not God.
But, Jesus did what He said:
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his
life for his friends."
I understand that, in all religions, suicide is a sinful act.
But Jesus showed us that suicide could be an act of true love
too.
For example, one of the reasons for which my friend (we knew
each other for around 65 years, since we were 10 years old)
killed himself lately, was to let me have a better live
(relative to my nature).
The reason I started this topic is to show that if a Christian
preacher (who claims that Jesus is God) insists that suicide is
always a sin, if not a mortal one, he also confirms that, in
reality, he believes (unlike his claim) that Jesus was just a
powerless man and didn’t have God’s Power (not God). In other
words, that preacher has joined those who said: “He saved
others; himself he cannot save”.
[/quote]Let me think about this. What is the definition of
"suicide"? Miriam-Webster says, "the act or an instance of
ending one's own life voluntarily and intentionally."
Was it suicide or murder? Murder is the unlawful taking of a
life. Pilate knew the legal case against Jesus was false; but
he ruled in favor of the people who wanted to see Jesus dead.
I'd call it murder then; but let me think some more.
#Post#: 35317--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jesus and Suicide
By: Heartsong Date: September 11, 2025, 10:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=KerimF link=topic=1598.msg35315#msg35315
date=1757594798]
Please correct me if I am wrong. A human commits a suicide if he
has a choice to stay alive, but he decided instead to let his
body die.
Now the crucial question is:
Wasn't Jesus able to save his life instead of submitting without
any sort of resistance to his killers? Jesus wasn't taken by
surprise because He knew in advance of their intention.
If, on the day of Crucifixion, Jesus had no power to save His
life, he would be just a man, not God.
But, Jesus did what He said:
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his
life for his friends."
I understand that, in all religions, suicide is a sinful act.
But Jesus showed us that suicide could be an act of true love
too.
For example, one of the reasons for which my friend (we knew
each other for around 65 years, since we were 10 years old)
killed himself lately, was to let me have a better live
(relative to my nature).
The reason I started this topic is to show that if a Christian
preacher (who claims that Jesus is God) insists that suicide is
always a sin, if not a mortal one, he also confirms that, in
reality, he believes (unlike his claim) that Jesus was just a
powerless man and didn’t have God’s Power (not God). In other
words, that preacher has joined those who said: “He saved
others; himself he cannot save”.
[/quote]
Jesus did the will of his Father and not his own will. The
scriptures said it would happen that way and Jesus knew that and
did his Father's will and finished His work and was obedient to
his Father even to death.
Matthew 26:24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about
Him, but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed. It would be
better for him if he had not been born.”
Matthew 26:53-54
Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at
once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? /
But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must
happen this way?”
Mark 14:49 Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple
courts, and you did not arrest Me. But this has happened that
the Scriptures would be fulfilled.”
Luke 24:44 Jesus said to them, “These are the words I spoke to
you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled
that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and
the Psalms.”
Luke 22:37 For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled
in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is
written about Me is reaching its fulfillment.
Luke 22:41And He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them,
where He knelt down and prayed, 42 “Father, if You are willing,
take this cup from Me. Yet not My will, but Yours be done.”
John 4:34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him
who sent Me, and to finish His work.
John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own
will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.
John 18:11 Put your sword back in its sheath!” Jesus said to
Peter. “Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given Me?”
Acts 2:23 He was delivered up by God’s set plan and
foreknowledge, and you, by the hands of the lawless, put Him to
death by nailing Him to the cross.
Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the
mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so
fulfilled.
Phil. 2:8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled
Himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross.
John 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said,
“It is finished!” And bowing his head, He gave up his spirit.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He
said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’ ” Having
said this, He breathed His last.
#Post#: 35318--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jesus and Suicide
By: KerimF Date: September 12, 2025, 1:44 am
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=1598.msg35316#msg35316
date=1757638337]
Let me think about this. What is the definition of "suicide"?
Miriam-Webster says, "the act or an instance of ending one's own
life voluntarily and intentionally."
Was it suicide or murder? Murder is the unlawful taking of a
life. Pilate knew the legal case against Jesus was false; but
he ruled in favor of the people who wanted to see Jesus dead.
I'd call it murder then; but let me think some more.
[/quote]
Yes, it could be seen as a murder. But was Jesus able, on that
day, to save his physical body or not?
If He was able to do it, then He just let it die, voluntarily
and intentionally.
If He wasn't able to do it, then He was just a man, nothing
else.
(Please, see also my next comment to Heartsong.)
#Post#: 35319--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jesus and Suicide
By: KerimF Date: September 12, 2025, 1:51 am
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The essence of the verses, you, Heartsong, kindly presented, is
what I tried to say, on other posts, about the miracles and
Crucifixion in Jesus life.
It was very important for Jesus’ Apostles, who were raised as
Jews, to witness those events for they were a clear sign that
Jesus was indeed the Promised Savior of whom they used to hear.
(The meaning of the word ‘Savior’ here leads us to another
topic.)
On the other hand, if I understood well, you seem to believe
that, in whatever Jesus did while he was among humans, there
were TWO Wills not ONE; His Will and the Will of the Heavenly
Father.
If this is true, then Jesus were talking non-sense things/truths
in his many other sayings, mainly when He said: “I and The
Father are One. Let us notice that Jesus didn’t say: I and My
Father are One; The difference is very big.
To those who are born of the Spirit, the two words ‘Father’ (the
Divine Being who wasn’t incarnated) and ‘Son’ (the Divine being
who was incarnated) have nothing to do with breeding. It happens
that, in all languages, these two words are the best ones to
present/confirm the close union of two beings (having One Will,
not two).
Jesus was talking to humans who used to see God as one Being
only; actually a Ruling One (like most of today’s theists do),
based on their preprogrammed instincts of selfishness,
superiority and applying justice.
Let us suppose that Jesus was simply following the Father’s
Will.
Where was Jesus when the Father inspired the Jewish Prophets
about His Will?
Jesus knew that those who were able to hear Him were not able to
see clearly the difference between “One Being” and “One Entity”
in God’s image. But this is no more the case now, after 2000
years. A theist who has no choice but to be guided by his
instincts (a human of the world) has also no choice but to see
the ‘Will/Power behind his existence’ as of ‘One Being’ only
(like Allah and Moses’ God).
But the one who was born of the Spirit and was able to defeat
the robotic nature of his body (a human no more of the world)
sees automatically the ‘Will/Power behind his existence’ of Two
Beings, in the least, unified by the Spirit of Love (the
Heavenly Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit).
So, whenever I hear Jesus on the Gospel talking about the Will
of the Father, I, unlike the men of the world (in the past and
now), just hear Him talking of His Will as well.
#Post#: 35320--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jesus and Suicide
By: Kerry Date: September 12, 2025, 6:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=KerimF link=topic=1598.msg35318#msg35318
date=1757659445]
Yes, it could be seen as a murder. But was Jesus able, on that
day, to save his physical body or not?
If He was able to do it, then He just let it die, voluntarily
and intentionally.
If He wasn't able to do it, then He was just a man, nothing
else.
(Please, see also my next comment to Heartsong.)
[/quote]I would not attribute it to his free will if he allowed
others to have their way. If someone breaks into a house and
steals money, is the victim responsible? If the victim was
home and could have fought the thief, should we say he wanted to
be robbed because he didn't fight to keep the money?
Some things aren't worth fighting for. If someone threatened my
life, I might not resist. I don't know. Perhaps I would be
more likely to fight an attacker if he was threatening someone
else.
#Post#: 35321--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jesus and Suicide
By: Heartsong Date: September 12, 2025, 8:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=KerimF link=topic=1598.msg35319#msg35319
date=1757659912]
Let us suppose that Jesus was simply following the Father’s
Will.
Where was Jesus when the Father inspired the Jewish Prophets
about His Will?
[/quote]
He was in heaven.
John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own
will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.
John 6:62 Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend
to where He was before?
John 8:23 Then He told them, “You are from below; I am from
above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that
came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man was of the dust of the earth,
the second man from heaven.
#Post#: 35322--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jesus and Suicide
By: KerimF Date: September 12, 2025, 3:35 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=1598.msg35320#msg35320
date=1757677772]
I would not attribute it to his free will if he allowed others
to have their way. If someone breaks into a house and steals
money, is the victim responsible? If the victim was home and
could have fought the thief, should we say he wanted to be
robbed because he didn't fight to keep the money?
[/quote]
In the case you presented, you are right.
But if the victim was home and didn't need to fight the intruder
since he had all the necessary means (very advanced ones) to
stop him, he wanted to be robbed if he didn't stop him.
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=1598.msg35320#msg35320
date=1757677772]
If someone threatened my life, I might not resist.
[/quote]
You won't resist even if you can press a button on your hand
that lets the attacker be paralyzed, if not worse?
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=1598.msg35320#msg35320
date=1757677772]
Perhaps I would be more likely to fight an attacker if he was
threatening someone else.
[/quote]
Since I don't classify people as good and evil, I won't hurt
someone to save another. I just try to save them both even if I
end up being their victim.
#Post#: 35323--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jesus and Suicide
By: KerimF Date: September 12, 2025, 4:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Heartsong link=topic=1598.msg35321#msg35321
date=1757682700]
He was in heaven.
[/quote]
Jesus, as the Father, existed before Creation.
But if this is not true, when did Jesus exist?
And the Father had to also create Jesus in order to send him
among humans and let him tell them what the Will of God (of the
Father) is.
And the Father let 'that Jesus' to tell the Jews of his time a
big lie that he (a created being) and the Father (God) are one,
to give them (the Jewish Elders) a solid pretext to crucify him.
Should Jesus keep saying that it is His Will and the Father's
Will whenever he did something instead of saying it is the
Father's Will only, to let the primitive Jews of His time know
that He and the Father are one, since before Creation?
If Jesus did it, Jews would kill Him right after He said it for
being a very serious blasphemy. And I couldn't hear the crucial
truths, I was looking for, for which Jesus came so that I can
hear them even after 2000 years.
#Post#: 35324--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jesus and Suicide
By: Heartsong Date: September 13, 2025, 1:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=KerimF link=topic=1598.msg35323#msg35323
date=1757712533]
Jesus, as the Father, existed before Creation.
But if this is not true, when did Jesus exist?[/Quote]
According to scripture, Jesus existed before the foundation of
the world, before the world existed. (John 17:5; John 17:24;,
Peter 1:20).
[Quote]And the Father had to also create Jesus in order to send
him among humans and let him tell them what the Will of God (of
the Father) is.
And the Father let 'that Jesus' to tell the Jews of his time a
big lie that he (a created being) and the Father (God) are one,
to give them (the Jewish Elders) a solid pretext to crucify him.
Should Jesus keep saying that it is His Will and the Father's
Will whenever he did something instead of saying it is the
Father's Will only, to let the primitive Jews of His time know
that He and the Father are one, since before Creation?
If Jesus did it, Jews would kill Him right after He said it for
being a very serious blasphemy. And I couldn't hear the crucial
truths, I was looking for, for which Jesus came so that I can
hear them even after 2000 years.
[/quote]
It wasn't a big lie when Jesus said he and the Father are one.
Just because they didn't understand or have enough spiritual
discernment to know what Jesus meant when he said he and the
Father are one doesn't mean that it was a big lie.
Dictionary; one
(2): being in agreement or union
ex. I am one with you on this.
: at harmony : in a state of agreement
John 10:30 "I and My Father are one.”
John 17: 22 "And I have given them the glory that you have given
me, so that they shall be one, just as we are one." 23"I in them
and you in me, so that they shall be perfected as one, and so
that the world shall know that you have sent me, and that you
have loved them just as you have also loved Me.
Jesus prayed that those would believe that the Father sent him
and loved them as the Father loved him would be one as he and
the Father were one. That is what Jesus meant by he and the
Father are one. A group of people can be one in the same way.
This is the context.
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