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#Post#: 34143--------------------------------------------------
Re: Eden
By: Kerry Date: June 2, 2023, 4:15 am
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Helen,
I forgot to mention where I first see the elect mentioned
indirectly.
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and
darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God
moved upon the face of the waters.
This would be better translated as "became without form and
void". In other words, a spiritual disaster had happened.
The word "moved" has a numerical value of 288. One Jewish
mystic thought it meant 288,000 was in the original Israel; but
I see it as double the 144,000 John gives us in Revelation for
the "male virgins." In Genesis, that's counting each of the
elect as two, one male and one male. In Revelation, it's
counting each of the elect as one -- and the expression is a
clue since "virgin" refers to women everywhere else in the New
Testament and perhaps in Greek writings in general. In other
words, each of the elect achieved perfection of being neither
male nor female but both. They aren't "female" virgins, and
they aren't "male" either. They are in some new state which
defies being described in human language. It's like "elohim"
which is "eloh" or "female goddess" with the masculine plural
ending of -im.
I find it interesting too that many scrolls were written on the
bark of trees. Were the names of the elect written on the
"bark" of the Tree of Life, that they helped form the Tree of
Life? I think that's what it probably means.
#Post#: 34144--------------------------------------------------
Re: Eden
By: Dave Date: June 2, 2023, 11:06 am
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Kerry that's a lot of gleaning materiel, like Ruth told
Naomi go glean in 'this mans' field, gleaning provides seed for
the eating, but 'man' does not live by bread alone, to fully
live we need the proceeding Word and like the women at the well
with Jesus it can only be a three course meal sometimes and a
crumb the next.
Whilst gleaning this morning, I came across what I thought as
an interesting look at Gen 4-7, that the word used for 'sin' is
the same as the 'sin offering' and the Lord was presenting Cain
the opportunity of reconciliation,
the Lord told him, 'if you do the right thing, you will be
accepted. But if you not do the right thing, there is a sin
offering available for you, the imagery of 'sin' crouching ready
to pounce, the word 'crouch' is the same word as is found in Ps
23 and used by David, " He makes me lie down in green pastures"
Another interesting thought is the 'door' reference, the
tabernacle door/entrance like Eden had a East entrance which was
guarded in the garden, but the Tabernacle entrance was where a
sin offering was brought.
There is also a play on the feminine and masculine words with
the 'sin' GtG the day is far spent.
#Post#: 34149--------------------------------------------------
Re: Eden
By: TrevorL Date: June 2, 2023, 4:08 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Greetings again Kerry,[quote author=Kerry
link=topic=1553.msg34142#msg34142 date=1685696120] It is not
popular among Christians, but I believe in reincarnation.
[/quote]Do you agree with the Hindus that the cow that they
allow to wander in the streets could be their Aunty or
Grandmother, or if they are wicked they might come back as a
frog? We have a friendly frog in our laundry, and he/she listens
to us but is a silent frog. A frog a few years ago was very
noisy and one evening I heard a noise in the laundry and a snake
was in the process of swallowing the frog. As a human this
person may have been more wicked than the present frog.
On the other hand, coming back to what the Bible teaches, I
believe that humans are animals that live their lives and then
return to the dust Genesis 3:19 and only some people will be
resurrected and judged at the return of Jesus Daniel 12:2-3.
Kind regards
Trevor
#Post#: 34151--------------------------------------------------
Re: Eden
By: Kerry Date: June 3, 2023, 5:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=TrevorL link=topic=1553.msg34149#msg34149
date=1685740129]
Greetings again Kerry,Do you agree with the Hindus that the cow
that they allow to wander in the streets could be their Aunty or
Grandmother, or if they are wicked they might come back as a
frog? We have a friendly frog in our laundry, and he/she listens
to us but is a silent frog. A frog a few years ago was very
noisy and one evening I heard a noise in the laundry and a snake
was in the process of swallowing the frog. As a human this
person may have been more wicked than the present frog.[/quote]I
would imagine reincarnating in another species would be
extremely rare since the souls of each species is designed to
run the bodies of that species.
[quote]On the other hand, coming back to what the Bible teaches,
I believe that humans are animals that live their lives and then
return to the dust Genesis 3:19 and only some people will be
resurrected and judged at the return of Jesus Daniel
12:2-3.[/quote]That says those who sleep in the dust will be
brought back and judged. Some to a good fate, others to shame
and everlasting contempt. Some souls do fall asleep when their
bodies die, and I find that an unfortunate situation. Some
souls go to Paradise or Heaven while others visit Hades.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth
shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and
everlasting contempt.
Revelation speaks of two resurrections.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and
judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that
were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their
hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand
years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first
resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they
shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him
a thousand years.
Another passage in Revelation says some saints were already made
priests and kings.
Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and
his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.
Amen.
What do you make of John the Baptist? Jesus said he was Elijah.
Matthew 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which
was for to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
He showed up later, after he died as John the Baptist, along
with Moses at the Transfiguration.
#Post#: 34152--------------------------------------------------
Re: Eden
By: TrevorL Date: June 3, 2023, 7:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Greetings again Kerry,[quote author=Kerry
link=topic=1553.msg34151#msg34151 date=1685787998]
I would imagine reincarnating in another species would be
extremely rare since the souls of each species is designed to
run the bodies of that species. [/quote]We do not "have" a soul.
We are a living soul or being Genesis 2:7.
[quote]That says those who sleep in the dust will be brought
back and judged. Some to a good fate, others to shame and
everlasting contempt. Some souls do fall asleep when their
bodies die, and I find that an unfortunate situation. [/quote]
Same again, we are living souls or beings. We do not possess an
immortal soul. [quote] Some souls go to Paradise or Heaven
[/quote]I suggest that you misunderstand the narrative
surrounding the thief on the cross.
[quote]Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of
the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to
shame and everlasting contempt.[/quote]Yes, this is at the
return of Jesus, at the beginning of the 1000 years of the
Kingdom.
[quote]Revelation speaks of two resurrections. [/quote]Yes, one
at the beginning and one at the end of the 1000 years.
[quote]Another passage in Revelation says some saints were
already made priests and kings.
Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and
his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.
Amen. [/quote]The faithful will be kings and priests during the
1000 years.
[quote]What do you make of John the Baptist? Jesus said he was
Elijah. Matthew 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias,
which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him
hear. [/quote]John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of
Elijah, not a reincarnation.
[quote]He showed up later, after he died as John the Baptist,
along with Moses at the Transfiguration. [/quote]I believe that
Moses and Elijah were resurrected for that short period of time
to show the Apostles this vision of the Kingdom and to greatly
encourage Jesus as he was to face his trials and crucifixion.
Kind regards
Trevor
#Post#: 34155--------------------------------------------------
Re: Eden
By: Kerry Date: June 3, 2023, 6:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Dave link=topic=1553.msg34144#msg34144
date=1685721982]
Kerry that's a lot of gleaning materiel, like Ruth told
Naomi go glean in 'this mans' field, gleaning provides seed for
the eating, but 'man' does not live by bread alone, to fully
live we need the proceeding Word and like the women at the well
with Jesus it can only be a three course meal sometimes and a
crumb the next.
Whilst gleaning this morning, I came across what I thought as
an interesting look at Gen 4-7, that the word used for 'sin' is
the same as the 'sin offering' and the Lord was presenting Cain
the opportunity of reconciliation,
the Lord told him, 'if you do the right thing, you will be
accepted. But if you not do the right thing, there is a sin
offering available for you, the imagery of 'sin' crouching ready
to pounce, the word 'crouch' is the same word as is found in Ps
23 and used by David, " He makes me lie down in green pastures"
Another interesting thought is the 'door' reference, the
tabernacle door/entrance like Eden had a East entrance which was
guarded in the garden, but the Tabernacle entrance was where a
sin offering was brought.
There is also a play on the feminine and masculine words with
the 'sin' GtG the day is far spent.
[/quote]Helen,
I saw that once where the word for sin could also translated as
sin offering and didn't know what to make of it and went on to
other things. Now that you brought it to my attention again,
the thought that came to mind was the saying that God always has
the solution for a problem before the problem arises. That is
because of His Wisdom. When He made the earth and the things
in it, He was Wise enough to see all the possibilities and
designed it so that no problem could ever arise that lacked a
solution.
Thinking now about what Cain was told, maybe it could mean both
"sin" and "sin offering" to a certain extent. Of course, this
would not be giving Cain "permission" to sin, saying, "If you
sin, it can be fixed." Obedience is better than sacrifice; and
Cain would regret the sin which would require the sacrifice.
#Post#: 34158--------------------------------------------------
Re: Eden
By: Kerry Date: June 4, 2023, 4:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=TrevorL link=topic=1553.msg34152#msg34152
date=1685794111]
Greetings again Kerry,We do not "have" a soul. We are a living
soul or being Genesis 2:7. [/quote]
A few things for now. If you reread my post, you will not find
me saying we "have" souls, so I don't understand your response.
However since the subject came up, let me address it.
We could say we "have" four things that we need to discipline:
A heart, a mind, a soul and our physical strength.
Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with
all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
The word "translated" as "soul" in the Old Testament can refer
to the person and does in many places. In other places the word
means "life" and is translated as "have life." It is however
the same word in Hebrew. Let me start with the verse you cited.
HTML https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h5315/kjv/wlc/0-1/
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man
became a living soul.
Back to the first occurrence which says animals have soul or
souls:
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the
moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above
the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
We also learn that the "nephesh" or "life" was in the blood.
Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood
thereof, shall ye not eat.
Do dead animals have soul or souls? According to Genesis they
do, and it's found in their blood.
[quote]Same again, we are living souls or beings. We do not
possess an immortal soul.[/quote]
Again I did not use the phrase "immortal soul'; but let me
comment on it. The Bible speaks of the soul dying, so I would
not say it is immortal. And if it were already immortality,
where would the need be for the gift of immortality?
Back to Genesis 2:7 again. God is said to breath into h'adam,
and he became a "living soul" or a "living life" as it were.
There are people walking around today who are dead spiritually.
They may have souls, but they're still dead -- or perhaps we
should say they're walking around with their souls in a
spiritual sleep. They are aware of their existence as animals
with bodies of physical flesh, but they are not aware of
spiritual reality. While other animals can be said to be "living
souls," there was something special imparted from the very Mouth
of God when He breathed into h'adam. Humans have a special kind
of breath is they have received this "breath" of God.
Notice how Jesus, after spending years with the disciples,
breathed on them after they were ready to receive it.
John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and
saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Now some dodge around the question about God saying they would
die the same day they ate of the forbidden tree. I say they
did die that very day. The Holy Spirit which had been in them
left -- and while their animal souls were alive, they were
spiritually dead. And when their animal bodies died, their
souls "slept."
I have time so let me address another point:
[quote]I believe that Moses and Elijah were resurrected for that
short period of time to show the Apostles this vision of the
Kingdom and to greatly encourage Jesus as he was to face his
trials and crucifixion.[/quote]
There is no record of Elijah dying, and the death of Moses is
something of a mystery as well. We are told God "took" Enoch
and he did see death. We also read Enoch made a prophecy.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not
see death; and was not found, because God had translated him:
for before his translation he had this testimony, that he
pleased God.
Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of
these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his
saints,
And where was Elijah after being "caught up in the air" when he
wrote a letter which got delivered? Surely God didn't resurrect
him so he could write the letter and made him dead again.
2 Chronicles 21:12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah
the prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy
father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat
thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
[quote]John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah,
not a reincarnation.[/quote]
I would not want to "add" to the text like that.
Matthew 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which
was for to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Malachi also seems clear to me that it will be Elijah himself.
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before
the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
Paul wrote the following to the church at Corinth. Was he
writing to us today and not to them? Did everyone in the church
of Corinth go to sleep?
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not
all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
What do we make of what Jesus said to Martha?
John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the
resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he
that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
Believest thou this?
#Post#: 34159--------------------------------------------------
Re: Eden
By: TrevorL Date: June 4, 2023, 6:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Greetings again Kerry,[quote author=Kerry
link=topic=1553.msg34158#msg34158 date=1685871662]
A few things for now. If you reread my post, you will not find
me saying we "have" souls, so I don't understand your response.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man
became a living soul.
Back to the first occurrence which says animals have soul or
souls:
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the
moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above
the earth in the open firmament of heaven.[/quote]I find your
answer here confusing. You state that you deny that we "have"
souls, and then you say animals have souls. You are misreading
as you are mixing two different words. Man became a living soul,
the same phrase as in the following translated "living
creature".
Genesis 1:24 (KJV): And God said, Let the earth bring forth the
living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and
beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
[quote] While other animals can be said to be "living souls,"
there was something special imparted from the very Mouth of God
when He breathed into h'adam. Humans have a special kind of
breath is they have received this "breath" of God. [/quote]God
did not impart something special in the breath. God inflated his
lungs and man started to breathe. Man is above the animals
because he was made superior to them, he was made a little lower
than the Angels.
[quote]Malachi also seems clear to me that it will be Elijah
himself.
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before
the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
[/quote]Yes, Elijah will preach to Israel in the future. Moses
was buried.
Kind regards
Trevor
#Post#: 34160--------------------------------------------------
Re: Eden
By: Kerry Date: June 4, 2023, 7:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=TrevorL link=topic=1553.msg34159#msg34159
date=1685878346]
Greetings again Kerry,I find your answer here confusing. You
state that you deny that we "have" souls, and then you say
animals have souls.
[/quote]It may be time for me to give up trying to communicate
with you. I said I had not said we have souls in that post; and
I had not said that in that post. You acted as if I had said
that, so I let you know (or tried to know) my views.
#Post#: 34161--------------------------------------------------
Re: Eden
By: TrevorL Date: June 4, 2023, 7:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Greetings again Kerry,[quote author=Kerry
link=topic=1553.msg34160#msg34160 date=1685880324]
It may be time for me to give up trying to communicate with you.
I said I had not said we have souls in that post; and I had not
said that in that post. You acted as if I had said that, so I
let you know (or tried to know) my views.
[/quote]That's fine, as I have trouble in understanding what you
are saying, and what you believe. Possibly it is because of my
own understanding of these things and it is hard for me to fully
comprehend a view that is significantly different. I appreciate
your participation.
Kind regards
Trevor
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