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#Post#: 33829--------------------------------------------------
JW Book: What Can the Bible Teach Us?
By: TrevorL Date: May 2, 2023, 1:33 am
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JW Book: What Can the Bible Teach Us?
Towards the end of 2019 I obtained a small JW book “What Can the
Bible Teach Us?” I spoke to two JW ladies who had a magazine and
booklet stand. I raised the subject of the return of Jesus based
on Acts 1:11 and Acts 3:19-21, and they raised the subject of
the 144,000 and a few other topics. The book is similar to an
earlier book that I had received some years ago “What Does the
Bible Really Teach?” The new book is basically a revision of the
old, with similar chapter titles, while the new has endnotes
replacing different appendix notes in the old.
In general I agree with much of what is stated, but some JW
ideas are introduced without any Biblical support, and these
ideas simply reflect the environment and teaching of the JWs. I
invite discussion on the following brief comments and the JW
view.
Chapter 1: Who is God?
Page 12: “God has told us that his name is Jehovah.”
Comment: It is generally recognised that YHWH is better
understood as Yahweh. Please consider Rotherham’s introduction
and the 1971 JW Book: Aid to Bible Understanding especially
pages 884-885 which is now been mainly suppressed by the new JW
publications. I agree with the future tense.
Page 17: “God wants us to have the best life possible.”
Comment: This is true ultimately, but God subjects us to many
circumstances now to develop us and some of these trials can be
very difficult.
Chapter 2 The Bible – A Book from God
Page 22: “In Matthew chapters 5 to 7, we read very good advice
that Jesus gave on how to be happy …”.
Comment: Similar to the previous comment. Jesus speaks about
being blessed, especially in the future and the word “happy” can
have a different range of meaning.
Chapter 3 What is God’s Purpose for Humans?
Page 30: “Satan .. made it look as though the snake was
talking.”
Comment: The Bible states that the serpent was discerning and
spoke Genesis 3:1. The JW NWT tries to hide this by translating
Genesis 3:1 as “cautious”, but the KJV “subtil” and most modern
translations “crafty” represent the correct translations.
Page 38: “We die because we inherited sin from Adam.”
Comment: We do not inherit sin, but we inherit the effects or
consequences of Adam’s sin. A baby is not a sinner.
Chapter 4 Who is Jesus Christ?
Page 40 Endnote 12: “God created Jesus before everything else.”
Comment: I do not accept this as I believe that Jesus did not
pre-exist his conception and birth. Jesus was and is a human,
now glorified, the Son of God by birth, character and
resurrection.
Page 51: “Luke 1:30-35 Jehovah sent Jesus to the earth.”
Comment: Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:30-35 speak about the
conception and anticipated birth of Jesus. The One God, Yahweh,
God the Father was His father through the power of the Holy
Spirit.
Kind regards
Trevor
#Post#: 33830--------------------------------------------------
Re: JW Book: What Can the Bible Teach Us?
By: TrevorL Date: May 2, 2023, 1:40 am
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JW Book: What Can the Bible Teach Us? (cont'd)
In my opening post I said “In general I agree with much of what
is stated” in chapters 1-4 of the JW book “What Can the Bible
Teach Us?”, but there are many items in chapter 5 which I find
difficult and that I do not agree with.
Chapter 5: The Ransom – God’s greatest gift
Page 54: “None of us could ever pay the ransom for the perfect
life that Adam lost. The ransom that had to be paid was another
perfect human life. The ransom that had to have the same value
as the life that Adam lost.”
Comment: This is the basis of the JW understanding of the
concept of the ransom. The word ransom is used in the
Scriptures, but it is only one aspect of a larger subject. The
reasoning behind the JW concept ignores many important aspects
of the redemption available in Jesus Christ. Some of the
additional comments in this chapter shows some of the logic used
to come to their conclusion.
Page 54: “Jehovah transferred Jesus from heaven to earth, and
Jesus was born a perfect human, without sin Luke 1:35”.
Comment: Jesus was not transferred from heaven, neither was he
born a perfect human. Jesus was born as a descendant of Adam
through Mary and shared our fallen human nature Romans 8:3 and
Hebrews 2:14. Nevertheless he never sinned and he overcame sin
and all its effects.
Page 55: “Three days after that, Jehovah brought Jesus back to
life, not as a human, but as a spirit person.”
Comment: Jesus is still a human, but a glorified human. Their
statement vaguely introduces the JW unique idea that the human
body of Jesus was not raised but somehow preserved separately.
The sentence placed upon Adam and his descendants of returning
to the dust Genesis 3:19 was reversed in Jesus when his body saw
no corruption Acts 2:30-32 and God quickened his dead body after
three days and God raised Jesus from the dead and gave him
immortal life.
Page 59 – Endnote 16: “The Memorial: Those who will rule with
Jesus in heaven eat the bread and drink the wine. Those who have
the hope of living forever on earth respectfully attend the
Memorial but do not eat the bread or drink the wine.”
Comment: This introduces the unique JW teaching concerning the
144,000. I asked the ladies when they raised the subject of the
144.00 and they stated that there are none of the 144,000 in
their meeting. As a result none of the JWs in their particular
meeting partake of the emblems. My understanding is that all the
believers should remember Christ’s death and resurrection by
means of the emblems each week. JWs only “celebrate” this once a
year and pass the emblems along the row, and no one
participates, at their meeting at least, proving that the
majority of JWs are not in fellowship with Christ.
Kind regards
Trevor
#Post#: 33831--------------------------------------------------
Re: JW Book: What Can the Bible Teach Us?
By: TrevorL Date: May 2, 2023, 1:46 am
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JW Book: What Can the Bible Teach Us? (cont'd)
I considered Chapters 1-4 of the JW book “What Can the Bible
Teach Us?” in the Opening Post and Chapter 5 in Reply #1. My
initial focus will be to highlight the items which I find
difficult and that I do not agree with.
Chapter 6: Where do we go when we die?
I agree with most of this chapter as together with JWs and SDAs,
as I believe in the resurrection at the return of Jesus and I do
not believe that we have an immortal soul that goes to heaven or
hell at death. The JW concept that the serpent in Genesis 3 is
somehow Satan recurs in this chapter, three times on page 65 and
once on page 66:
Page 66: “Satan said that Eve wouldn’t die, so Eve ate some of
the fruit and then gave some to her husband.”
Comment: The serpent was one of the creatures that was created
as related in Genesis 1 and had the ability to discern and
speak.
Chapter 7: There will be a resurrection!
Again as I do not believe in immortal souls, I share some
aspects of the resurrection with the JWs but some of their
unique concepts become apparent in this chapter.
Page 79: “The unrighteous” includes billions of people who did
not have the opportunity to know Jehovah. Even though they died,
Jehovah hasn’t forgotten them, and they will have the
opportunity to learn about him and serve him.
Comment: My understanding is that only some are resurrected, the
faithful and unfaithful, representing those who have heard the
gospel, whether they have responded or not, and whether they
have been faithful to the gospel. There is no second chance for
those who died without faith in the Gospel.
Page 79: “The Bible also tells us that some people will live in
heaven. When someone is resurrected to heaven, he is not brought
to life as human with a human body. He is resurrected to life in
heaven as spirit person. … Jesus was not resurrected with a
human body.”
Comment: This is starting to introduce the JW concept of the
144,000, specifically mentioned on page 80. The JW view is also
based upon the idea that the body of Jesus was not resurrected
but preserved. Acts 2 clearly teaches that the tomb was empty,
and this is because of the bodily resurrection of Jesus. I
believe in the resurrection of the human body of the faithful,
they will then be changed to immortal bodies and they will be
upon the earth with Jesus when he returns.
Chapter 8: What is God’s Kingdom?
I share with JWs that there will be a Kingdom for 1000 years,
but differ in many details.
Page 83: “We have learned that God’s name is Jehovah.”
Comment: I suggest that Jehovah is an incorrect representation
of YHWH. Yahweh is a better rendition, refer Rotherham’s
introduction in his Bible translation.
Page 84: “Forty days after his resurrection, Jesus returned to
heaven. Eventually, Jehovah appointed him as King of the Kingdom
Acts 2:33. God’s government will rule over the earth from heaven
Revelation 11:15.”
Comment: The following two references give a different view to
what the JWs deduct here.
Acts 2:36 (KJV): Therefore let all the house of Israel know
assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have
crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Revelation 5:9–10 (KJV): 9 And they sung a new song, saying,
Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof:
for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood
out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And
hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign
on the earth.
Jesus was already appointed as both Lord and Christ and the
faithful will reign on earth not from heaven.
Page 91: “For many years before 1914, a group of sincere
Christians understood that it would be an important year in
Bible prophecy. World events since 1914 have proved that they
were correct. Jesus began to rule as King in that year.”
Comment: This introduces the unique JW view that Jesus started
to rule in 1914. The Bible teaches that Jesus will return to
earth and then reign from Jerusalem for the 1000 years Acts
1:11, 3:19-21, Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:35,44, Zechariah 14.
Kind regards
Trevor
#Post#: 33832--------------------------------------------------
Re: JW Book: What Can the Bible Teach Us?
By: TrevorL Date: May 2, 2023, 1:50 am
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JW Book: What Can the Bible Teach Us? (cont'd)
I considered Chapters 1-4 of the JW book “What Can the Bible
Teach Us?” in the Opening Post, Chapter 5 in Reply #1 and
Chapters 6-8 in Reply #2. Again my initial focus will be to
highlight the items which I find difficult and that I do not
agree with.
Chapter 9: Is the end of the world near?
I would agree with the title and some aspects of the answer
given in general. Yes, the end of the present era is near,
because Jesus will soon return to replace the present kingdoms
of men with the Kingdom of God.
Page 95: “In Chapter 8 we learned that Jesus became King in
heaven in 1914 Daniel 7:13-14. The book of Revelation tells us
what happened: “War broke out in heaven: Michael [meaning,
Jesus] and his angels battled with the dragon [Satan] battled.”
Satan and his demons lost the war and were thrown down to the
earth.”
Comment: Firstly, I am interested in the various time periods of
Daniel and Revelation, both as to when they individually start
and finish, and also what is represented by the time period and
what particular event happens when this period ends. I believe
that Jesus is yet to return and thus the JW view of 1914 is
incorrect. Some of the termination dates are like milestones
towards the Kingdom, not the start of the Kingdom. I believe
that the “war” of Revelation 12 is depicting the war between the
pagan Roman forces with the Apostate Christian forces of
Constantine.
Chapter 10: The truth about the angels
Page 106: (Picture of Daniel in the lions’ den, depicting a
large angel with very large wings).
Comment: I do not believe that Angels have wings. They have
appeared and were mistaken at first as men, and thus these were
without wings. They can move by means of Holy Spirit power.
Page 108: “In Noah’s time some angels rebelled and left their
home in heaven to live as humans on earth. Why? The Bible tells
us they wanted to have wives Genesis 6:2. … [when the flood
came:] … To survive those wicked angels returned to heaven. The
Bible calls those wicked angels demons.”
Comment: I consider that this embellishes the narrative even if
you believe that these were fallen angels. My understanding of
this is that it is talking about the seed of the woman and the
seed of the serpent. The separation and godliness of Seth and
his descendants was broken down when they started to intermarry
with the descendants of Cain, and the appeal was the outward
beauty of the women who were the descendants of Cain. Angels do
not marry.
Chapter 11: Why so much suffering?
Page 117: “Jehovah never causes bad things to happen.”
Comment: I disagree. God sends judgement upon the wicked. God
raised Assyria and Babylon to judge and purify Israel and Judah.
Page 118: “Jehovah never causes suffering. He’s not to blame for
war, crime and mistreatment. God does not cause disasters such
as earthquakes, hurricanes and floods.” Comment: Similar to the
above. God is in control of such disasters as earthquakes,
hurricanes and floods and can and has used some of these to
accomplish his purpose. God brought the flood in Noah’s time
upon the earth.
Kind regards
Trevor
#Post#: 33833--------------------------------------------------
Re: JW Book: What Can the Bible Teach Us?
By: TrevorL Date: May 2, 2023, 1:54 am
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JW Book: What Can the Bible Teach Us? (cont'd)
The following is a brief consideration of the next four chapters
of the JW book “What Can the Bible Teach Us?” Again my initial
focus will be to highlight the items which I find difficult and
that I do not agree with.
Chapter 12: How can you become God’s friend?
A large portion of this chapter from page 125 to 129 gives the
impression our major problem is dealing with Satan. I remember
my mother-in-law when a JW at the door spoke a lot about Satan
or the Devil, my mother-in-law said: “I have enough problems in
dealing with the devil within without worrying about a devil
without.” I agree with her and believe that we have a real
struggle with the lusts of the flesh, the lust of the eye and
the pride of life.
Another feature throughout the whole book is the citation of a
Biblical reference from the NWT. Some of these can be helpful,
some give a slightly different perspective to my usual
environment with the KJV and others seem strange. On Page 132 it
uses “the old personality” and “the new personality” while the
KJV has “the old man” and “the new man”. These have a slightly
different range, and I prefer the KJV.
Chapter 13: Respect the gift of life
I agree with and endorse what is stated on Pages 135-139. Then
on Pages 140-141 the subject of blood transfusion is considered
and this is one of the unique JW teachings.
Page 104: “God’s faithful servants are determined to obey his
law about blood. They will not eat or drink blood, and they will
not accept blood for medical reasons.”
Comment: I believe that the law concerning drinking blood does
not apply to blood transfusions. The law was speaking about some
form of pagan sacrifices.
Chapter 14: Your family can be happy
This chapter is Pages 145-153 and I agree with what is stated.
Chapter 15: The right way to worship God
I agree in concept with what is stated in this chapter,
including some teachings that are different to many Protestant
Churches, but one outcome is that they claim that the JWs are
the true religion. Here is one example of this where it is
almost stated:
Page 156: “So, as God’s servants we follow Jesus’ example. We
worship only Jehovah, we use his name, and we teach others God’s
name and what he will do for us.”
Comment: This claim is based upon their use of the word
“Jehovah”, and I believe that the Name of God is better rendered
Yahweh, and it is not only speaking the Name, but what is the
meaning of the Name. I do not believe that the JWs fully or
correctly understand or teach the meaning of the Name.
Their claim that the JWs are the true religion is explicitly
stated on pages 158-159, where there is a list of some of their
teachings and practices are listed, and then the following is
stated:
Page 158: “After studying these points, ask yourself: Who base
their teachings on the Bible? Who tell others about God’s name?
Who …? Who …? Who …? It is only Jehovah’s Witnesses Isaiah
43:10-12.”
Comment: JWs do not fully base their beliefs on the Bible. They
incorrectly use and teach the name “Jehovah”. The witnesses
spoken of in Isaiah 43:10-12 was Israel, not the JWs.
Kind regards
Trevor
#Post#: 33834--------------------------------------------------
Re: JW Book: What Can the Bible Teach Us?
By: TrevorL Date: May 2, 2023, 1:57 am
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JW Book: What Can the Bible Teach Us? (cont'd)
The following is a brief consideration of the last four chapters
of the JW book “What Can the Bible Teach Us?” mainly
highlighting items that I disagree with.
Chapter 16: Choose to Worship God
Most of this chapter is satisfactory. I personally do not keep
Christmas though I do not worry if some in my fellowship do keep
this. I endorse the concept of having a family gathering. JWs
also do not celebrate birthdays, but I find no problem with
celebrating birthdays.
Chapter 17: The Privilege of Prayer
I endorse most of what is stated in this chapter.
Chapter 18: Should I Dedicate my Life to God and be Baptized
This chapter possibly does not give much detail. One feature is
the introduction of one of the main JW functions, that of
preaching and traditionally this has been door to door, but more
recently they have been using book stands in shopping areas or
public areas such as parks where there are pedestrians passing
by. Both of these have been restricted due to covid, but they
plan to resume soon.
Page 188: “Eventually, you will be able to begin preaching with
the congregation. When you feel ready to do so, you can talk to
the Witness who is teaching you the Bible and tell him or her
that you would like to share in the preaching work with the
congregation.”
Comment: This seems to indicate that the individual is gradually
inducted into preaching before they are baptised, and that this
reflects the main purpose and activity of the JW movement.
Page 191: “After you have dedicated yourself to Jehovah, you are
ready for the next step. You need to get baptized.”
Comment: This possibly gives the impression that part of this
dedication is a full induction to preaching before baptism. Also
what is not clear is the level of faith and understanding before
baptism, but it would include all of the unique JW teachings.
Chapter 19: Stay Close to Jehovah
I agree with much of this chapter, but again the following main
function of the JW movement appears.
Page 201: “If we want to remain close to Jehovah, we also need
to talk to others about our faith.”
Concluding comment: I hope that this review and comments on this
book is sufficient to indicate that the JW faith and practice is
not in conformity with the Bible teaching.
Kind regards
Trevor
#Post#: 33928--------------------------------------------------
Re: JW Book: What Can the Bible Teach Us?
By: Heartsong Date: May 8, 2023, 1:56 pm
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[quote author=TrevorL link=topic=1544.msg33834#msg33834
date=1683010665]
Chapter 18: Should I Dedicate my Life to God and be Baptized
This chapter possibly does not give much detail. One feature is
the introduction of one of the main JW functions, that of
preaching and traditionally this has been door to door, but more
recently they have been using book stands in shopping areas or
public areas such as parks where there are pedestrians passing
by. Both of these have been restricted due to covid, but they
plan to resume soon.
Page 188: “Eventually, you will be able to begin preaching with
the congregation. When you feel ready to do so, you can talk to
the Witness who is teaching you the Bible and tell him or her
that you would like to share in the preaching work with the
congregation.”
Comment: This seems to indicate that the individual is gradually
inducted into preaching before they are baptised, and that this
reflects the main purpose and activity of the JW
movement.[/Quote]
Yes, it's a major part. I started going door to door in the
preaching work before I was baptized but I mostly just listened
to another JW who was with me while they did all the talking.
[Quote]Page 191: “After you have dedicated yourself to Jehovah,
you are ready for the next step. You need to get baptized.”
Comment: This possibly gives the impression that part of this
dedication is a full induction to preaching before baptism. Also
what is not clear is the level of faith and understanding before
baptism, but it would include all of the unique JW
teachings.[/Quote]
It probably means after you have decided that you want to be a
JW, the next step is baptism.
I had a weekly bible study for about two years and then I
decided that I wanted to get baptized. I had to answer 100
questions to their satisfaction before they would allow me to
get baptized. There was a question about Jesus that I didn't
answer the way they wanted me to so I had to keep having a bible
study and the baptism was delayed.. That almost made me change
my mind about wanting to get baptized because they took that
choice from me to decide on my own. I felt hurt by that. I did
eventually get baptized though in 1979.
#Post#: 33929--------------------------------------------------
Re: JW Book: What Can the Bible Teach Us?
By: TrevorL Date: May 8, 2023, 5:34 pm
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Greetings Heartsong,[quote author=Heartsong
link=topic=1544.msg33928#msg33928 date=1683572191]
Yes, it's a major part. I started going door to door in the
preaching work before I was baptized but I mostly just listened
to another JW who was with me while they did all the
talking.[/quote]I have encountered a pair of JWs on a number of
occasions and there seems to be one spokesperson, while the
other is still learning. Years ago with my first encounter it
was an older man and with a father and his say 16 y.o. son when
I was also 16 and then a mother and her teenage daughter, and
more recently a say 22 y.o. girl and her 18 y.o. companion. On
this occasion I used my favourite introduction by quoting Acts
1:11 and Acts 3:19-21 to state that Jesus will soon return to
the earth to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth. The 22
y.o. rattled off a very prepared style answer and then wanted to
immediately leave.
[quote]It probably means after you have decided that you want to
be a JW, the next step is baptism.
I had a weekly bible study for about two years and then I
decided that I wanted to get baptized. I had to answer 100
questions to their satisfaction before they would allow me to
get baptized. There was a question about Jesus that I didn't
answer the way they wanted me to so I had to keep having a bible
study and the baptism was delayed.. That almost made me change
my mind about wanting to get baptized because they took that
choice from me to decide on my own. I felt hurt by that. I did
eventually get baptized though in 1979. [/quote]This seems to
confirm that you were not brought up in the JW environment. I
was brought up in our Sunday School and we also had Sunday
Evening lectures covering most first principles. When you left
have you retained some of the JW teachings? I always think that
it is hard for anyone in my fellowship to join the churches and
start believing in the Trinity and immortal souls. When my
son-in-law and daughter were to some extent isolated in a
regional area, they went along to a Baptist Church for a bit of
company but they were treated very suspiciously because they did
not accept the Trinity, and they discontinued because one woman
who thought the Holy Spirit was talking to her kept on pestering
them by saying: "I have a message for you" and would come out
with some ridiculous concept or instruction.
Kind regards
Trevor
#Post#: 33931--------------------------------------------------
Re: JW Book: What Can the Bible Teach Us?
By: Heartsong Date: May 8, 2023, 6:49 pm
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[quote author=TrevorL link=topic=1544.msg33929#msg33929
date=1683585253]
This seems to confirm that you were not brought up in the JW
environment.[/Quote]
No, I wasn't brought up in the JW environment, thank goodness. I
was already married and my first child was a baby. I was in my
early twenties. I had been to many different churches before
that. I started out in a Baptist Church when I was a little
girl. Then I was in foster care for ten years so during that
time I went to Methodist, Episcopal, Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist
and Pentecostal Holiness(several of those).
[Quote]When you left have you retained some of the JW
teachings?[/Quote]
There are couple of doctrines that I already believed long
before I became a JW that they teach. So I wouldn't necessarily
call those only JW teachings. They have a warped view of things
and they break up families and destroy people's lives. So many
suicides resulting from being disfellowshipped. But I did go to
the JW church longer than any other church, unfortunately.
#Post#: 33932--------------------------------------------------
Re: JW Book: What Can the Bible Teach Us?
By: TrevorL Date: May 8, 2023, 11:25 pm
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Greetings again Heartsong,[quote author=Heartsong
link=topic=1544.msg33931#msg33931 date=1683589779] I started out
in a Baptist Church when I was a little girl. Then I was in
foster care for ten years so during that time I went to
Methodist, Episcopal, Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist and
Pentecostal Holiness(several of those). [/quote]Seems that you
had a difficult childhood, with many short term foster periods,
and that would not be conducive to a settled environment. My Dad
was a foster child from about 4 y.o. as his mother could not
cope when his father went to WW1. He has mentioned being
fostered by a number of households, but was blessed to be
fostered by an old couple when about 14 and unlike Anne of Green
Gables he worked on their farm for more than 10 years. His
foster father resumed fellowship with his religious denomination
and then my father was baptised at the age of 21 and then
married in this environment and brought up my two older sisters
and me in this faith.
[quote]There are couple of doctrines that I already believed
long before I became a JW that they teach. So I wouldn't
necessarily call those only JW teachings. They have a warped
view of things and they break up families and destroy people's
lives. So many suicides resulting from being disfellowshipped.
But I did go to the JW church longer than any other church,
unfortunately. [/quote]Because of my belief in the 1000 years
and rejection of immortal souls I was interested in considering
both the JW and SDA beliefs. Unfortunately the closer I looked
the greater the difference.
I have had contact with Baptists, mainly at work, but I
responded to a Baptist advertisement which stated something
like: What will happen when Christ returns. I arrived 10 minutes
early, and they were all seated having had a morning meeting and
lunch and the singing was now in full flight. I had no hymn book
and sat in an elevated seat in the aisle and looked at a husband
and wife who were in full voice, but occasionally he would nod
to me as if to say, Sing up. Then a fiery red-haired preacher
got up and gradually got worked up, and his face got redder and
redder, matching his subject, threatening us that if we didn't
repent then the devil will get us and we will burn in hell for
eternity. He called those who wanted to repent or rededicate to
come forward and two old ladies went forward and the wife near
me said, Not her again. The music then resumed for about half an
hour.
My ex-Baptist work mate, now part time Pentecostal Pastor told
me that that style of preaching used to be popular, but not used
very often today. I should imagine in his Pentecostal
environment there is still much singing, as they had to add
security to protect all their "loud" type electronic musical
equipment, then they would have preaching about the Prosperity
Doctrine and then attempts at Healing, falling over backwards
and a display of speaking in tongues.
Kind regards
Trevor
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