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#Post#: 33769--------------------------------------------------
Jews and Gentiles
By: Kerry Date: April 25, 2023, 5:37 am
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Where are Gentiles first mentioned or alluded to in the Bible?
Solomon wrote:
Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the
honour of kings is to search out a matter.
I say that God had a plan for the salvation of all people from
the very beginning. I say His plan for the Gentiles is
concealed in the symbols used in Genesis.
How many trees were there in Eden? The text itself doesn't
say.
Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow
every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the
tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of
knowledge of good and evil.
. . .
15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of
Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of
the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt
not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou
shalt surely die.
The Jewish tradition says there were seventy, one for each of
the seventy Gentile nations. Compare this statement to the
seventy trees Israel saw when leaving Egypt.
Exodus 15:27 And they came to Elim, where were twelve wells of
water, and threescore and ten palm trees: and they encamped
there by the waters.
This statement from Exodus tells us that Israel, with access to
the spiritual water of life, was to serve God by introducing the
seventy nations to Him. Compare that too to the "river" which
left Eden before dividing into four rivers. Now surely that was
a spiritual river since physical rivers don't divide themselves.
On the contrary, physical rivers start off small, join with
each other to form larger ones.
We also have a verse which states explicitly that man is a tree;
but the statement appears so absurd to translators, they altered
it by adding to it and changing the word order.
Deuteronomy 20:19 When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in
making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the
trees thereof by forcing an axe against them: for thou mayest
eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for the tree of
the field is man's life) to employ them in the siege:
Young's Literal Translation is a lot more accurate:
`When thou layest siege unto a city many days, to fight against
it, to capture it, thou dost not destroy its trees to force an
axe against them, for of them thou dost eat, and them thou dost
not cut down -- for man's [is] the tree of the field -- to go in
at thy presence in the siege.
A wonderful principle is meant to be taught by this commandment
as well as it being wise for armies not to cut down fruit trees.
We learn here how God looks at people. If they are doing well,
He does not interfere; but if they are being hateful and
unproductive, He may think it wise to have steps taken to remove
"unfruitful trees."
If anyone, reading Genesis by itself, was uncertain how physical
to take Eden, the matter should be cleared up by later
Scriptures. "Garden" and "Paradise" are the same thing. John
places the tree of life in the center of the Holy City.
Revelation 22:And he shewed me a pure river of water of life,
clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the
Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the
river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of
fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the
tree were for the healing of the nations.
Here we are told explicitly that the river is the water of life
and that the "leaves" of the Tree of Life are meant for the
"healing of the nations." The leaves of the other trees are not
said to have this healing property. From the very beginning
then, from the establishment of Eden, God's purpose included the
Gentiles. In this, we see how God is Love for everyone.
Paul, while having a slightly different approach, nevertheless
thought of Jews and Gentiles in terms of trees, writing about
how Gentiles could be grafted in.
#Post#: 33771--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jews and Gentiles
By: paralambano Date: April 25, 2023, 8:26 am
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Kerry - ^
I believe God started by the Gentiles, divorced them at the
tower, then chose a group of people (COI) to "marry" by certain
individuals (Abe et al), eventually divorced them but saved a
remnant for Gentiles (grafted in) that He had not forgotten as
an act of mercy and love for the "world"/creation. And so the
unbelieving Jew today as well as unbelieving Gentile can still
be fused by the Gospel into the new creation.
It's part of our fallenness sometimes to think of others as
"them" not "me". We feel justified at times because others do
bad stuff we say we wouldn't do, or they're misshapen, or have
dirty habits, etc.. So in a sense, we might feel superior to
them. But I like to think of everyone on a continuum myself
included that God knows specifically where each is at. The whole
chosen people thing for me is anyone who gets to be elect, ready
to enter the heavenly kingdom. It just goes on ad infinitum (of
His government ever increasing as Isaiah wrote - - thus the
shadow universe as infinity symbol by size for people to inhabit
in the infinite heavenly) because I don't believe God fails by
what He creates. He isn't like fallen man who needs prototypes
and tinkers.
para . . . .
#Post#: 33773--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jews and Gentiles
By: Kerry Date: April 25, 2023, 8:58 am
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[quote author=paralambano link=topic=1541.msg33771#msg33771
date=1682429200]
Kerry - ^
I believe God started by the Gentiles, divorced them at the
tower, then chose a group of people (COI) to "marry" by certain
individuals (Abe et al), eventually divorced them but saved a
remnant for Gentiles (grafted in) that He had not forgotten as
an act of mercy and love for the "world"/creation. And so the
unbelieving Jew today as well as unbelieving Gentile can still
be fused by the Gospel into the new creation.
It's part of our fallenness sometimes to think of others as
"them" not "me". We feel justified at times because others do
bad stuff we say we wouldn't do, or they're misshapen, or have
dirty habits, etc.. So in a sense, we might feel superior to
them. But I like to think of everyone on a continuum myself
included that God knows specifically where each is at. The whole
chosen people thing for me is anyone who gets to be elect, ready
to enter the heavenly kingdom. It just goes on ad infinitum (of
His government ever increasing as Isaiah wrote - - thus the
shadow universe as infinity symbol by size for people to inhabit
in the infinite heavenly) because I don't believe God fails by
what He creates.
para . . . .
[/quote]For now, let me say I agree wholly with your last
statement. God did not make trash. I will express other ideas
later; but I hope to keep in mind when writing what Jesus said
of the Law and the Prophets.
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy
God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy
mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour
as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
How can we love God if we have a poor opinion of Him? I insist
then that all Scripture, if properly understood, should make us
love God more than before we understood it; and if I think some
passage makes God look bad, I must be mistaken somehow.
I also doubt any Scripture, when properly understood, could make
us treat others more poorly than before we read it. That
includes all prophecy. The struggle for us, as you put it, is
in our fallenness; and the Scriptures can correct us if we
realize any negative ideas which come to mind when reading them
can't be right.
Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a
father the son in whom he delighteth.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and
is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for
instruction in righteousness:
#Post#: 33774--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jews and Gentiles
By: paralambano Date: April 25, 2023, 1:07 pm
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Kerry - ^
[quote]How can we love God if we have a poor opinion of Him? I
insist then that all Scripture, if properly understood, should
make us love God more than before we understood it; and if I
think some passage makes God look bad, I must be mistaken
somehow.
I also doubt any Scripture, when properly understood, could make
us treat others more poorly than before we read it. That
includes all prophecy. The struggle for us, as you put it, is
in our fallenness; and the Scriptures can correct us if we
realize any negative ideas which come to mind when reading them
can't be right.
Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a
father the son in whom he delighteth.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and
is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for
instruction in righteousness:[/quote]
Agreed. I also believe in tough love at times, especially with
some deeply steeped. I don't mind it for myself to awaken.
There's a whole lotta stuff I don't like in people, I mean,
really not like with a passion like Hitler for example or some
dead-soul murderers who are incredibly evil who ought to be put
away from society and I don't feel sorry for them if executed
legally because I believe in the continuum, that is, it's not
over for them. But I shouldn't pronounce an everlasting torment
for them. Torment they can have for purging that I don't have a
problem with but God won't fail with them.
Hey, Kerry? This is a bit off-topic. I didn't want to start a
thread about it because really it's not my thing, zodaical
stuff. I'd get lost. I know a surface bit but I believe you know
way, way more about it. So, if ever you have some time (or maybe
you know it already), can you look at Numbers 2 and tell me if
the census numbers there for the 12 tribes could be syn. .
synadoictal (?), syna something or other in astrology? If you
don't want to, that's okay too. My understanding is that the
tribes are arranged around the Tabernacle by the signs which is
interesting, but the other . . . . .
Anyway, back on track here. Ya, fallenness. We're all fallen or
we wouldn't find ourselves in the predicaments of sinning,
getting ill, and dying. That's what has to be defeated for all.
A consciousness attained where these things never enter or if
they try to are easily dismissed as impossibilities.
para . . . .
#Post#: 33775--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jews and Gentiles
By: Kerry Date: April 25, 2023, 1:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=paralambano link=topic=1541.msg33774#msg33774
date=1682446020]
Kerry - ^
Agreed. I also believe in tough love at times, especially with
some deeply steeped. I don't mind it for myself to awaken.
There's a whole lotta stuff I don't like in people, I mean,
really not like with a passion like Hitler for example or some
dead-soul murderers who are incredibly evil who ought to be put
away from society and I don't feel sorry for them if executed
legally because I believe in the continuum, that is, it's not
over for them. But I shouldn't pronounce an everlasting torment
for them. Torment they can have for purging that I don't have a
problem with but God won't fail with them.[/quote]Agreed, and I
believe understanding the issues of Jews and Gentiles definitely
involves tough love at times. I do not think I can avoid
discussing that in more detail at some point. Right now, let me
say that people who make an agreement with God have given more
leeway with their lives since He would not be interfering with
their free will if and when they break the agreement. God has
every right to hold the "elect" to a higher standard since they
agreed to it and were correct to agree to it. God insists then
that they do the right thing -- they made a right decision and
God doesn't want them changing their minds to become wrong. It
may take tough love, but God wants them to be right, especially
after their agreeing to it.
[quote]Hey, Kerry? This is a bit off-topic. I didn't want to
start a thread about it because really it's not my thing,
zodaical stuff. I'd get lost. I know a surface bit but I believe
you know way, way more about it. So, if ever you have some time
(or maybe you know it already), can you look at Numbers 2 and
tell me if the census numbers there for the 12 tribes could be
syn. . synadoictal (?), syna something or other in astrology?
If you don't want to, that's okay too. My understanding is that
the tribes are arranged around the Tabernacle by the signs which
is interesting, but the other . . . . .
Anyway, back on track here. Ya, fallenness. We're all fallen or
we wouldn't find ourselves in the predicaments of sinning,
getting ill, and dying. That's what has to be defeated for all.
A consciousness attained where these things never enter or if
they try to are easily dismissed as impossibilities.
para . . . .
[/quote]I don't know about the census numbers there, but I think
how the tribes were arranged definitely follows a pattern that
resembles the zodiac. When they entered the Land of Promise,
the same pattern was followed for dividing the land among the
tribes. I don't know how in depth I could get about all twelve
tribes; but I have firm views on the four fixed signs. I'd
like to study the chapter in Genesis about Jacob's remarks too
to see if I could make more sense of all twelve. I see
something similar here as well:
Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either
side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve
manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the
leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
#Post#: 33776--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jews and Gentiles
By: paralambano Date: April 25, 2023, 2:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Kerry - ^
What Ezekiel sees in 47 of the New Covenant Temple is what John
writes in 22*.
John sees crystal water of a river of Life coming from God's
Throne and the Lamb in the middle of the street. I can go on
about the 4 rivers that result from the ground in Eden, a
parallel where in the mundane Temple, the faithful had to go to
the Bronze Laver for cleansing and that Laver gets tipped over
(the one in 2 Chronicles 4:10* - And he set the sea on the right
side of the east end, over against the south) and spills under
the door of the House to cleanse all the way to the Dead Sea
meaning with the New, no one has to go to a mundane Temple for
it. But I want to draw your attention to this of Ezekiel's:
7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were
very many trees on the one side and on the other.
Many Trees of Life. You're likely on the right track. This is
Paul's "all the more" in Romans 5. All the more by Jesus Christ.
*Edited in a couple of places due to prior haste.
para . . . .
#Post#: 33778--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jews and Gentiles
By: Kerry Date: April 26, 2023, 4:10 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=paralambano link=topic=1541.msg33776#msg33776
date=1682450948]
Kerry - ^
What Ezekiel sees in 47 of the New Covenant Temple is what John
writes in 22*.
John sees crystal water of a river of Life coming from God's
Throne and the Lamb in the middle of the street. I can go on
about the 4 rivers that result from the ground in Eden, a
parallel where in the mundane Temple, the faithful had to go to
the Bronze Laver for cleansing and that Laver gets tipped over
(the one in 2 Chronicles 4:10* - And he set the sea on the right
side of the east end, over against the south) and spills under
the door of the House to cleanse all the way to the Dead Sea
meaning with the New, no one has to go to a mundane Temple for
it. But I want to draw your attention to this of Ezekiel's:
7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were
very many trees on the one side and on the other.
Many Trees of Life. You're likely on the right track. This is
Paul's "all the more" in Romans 5. All the more by Jesus Christ.
*Edited in a couple of places due to prior haste.
para . . . .
[/quote]I believe that Heaven is consistent in the imagery used
when giving prophecies. Admittedly the individual prophet may
have his own viewpoint which may affect his prophecies; but
Heaven itself is usually consistent. Thus what is meant by
"trees" in Revelation is probably what is meant in Genesis.
That might help clear up what this passage about the First Trump
means:
Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail
and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth:
and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass
was burnt up.
Trees and grass are mentioned again with the Fifth Trump; and
note that now it seems that either not all the green grass was
burned up or it grew back.
Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not
hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither
any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in
their foreheads.
It is hard to believe that God wants to punish physical trees
and green grass in one case and then wants to protect them
later.
When I studied Revelation, I researched how "grass" is used in
the Bible:
Isaiah 40:6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry?
All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the
flower of the field:
Psalms uses the word in a similar way.
Psalm 37:1 Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be
thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as
the green herb.
Jesus said something that baffled me for a while since the
mustard plant, in our physical world, remains a herb and never
becomes a tree.
Matthew 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which
a man took, and sowed in his field:
32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown,
it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the
birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
#Post#: 33780--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jews and Gentiles
By: paralambano Date: April 26, 2023, 12:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Kerry - ^
[quote]I believe that Heaven is consistent in the imagery used
when giving prophecies. Admittedly the individual prophet may
have his own viewpoint which may affect his prophecies; but
Heaven itself is usually consistent. Thus what is meant by
"trees" in Revelation is probably what is meant in Genesis.
That might help clear up what this passage about the First Trump
means:
Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail
and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth:
and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass
was burnt up.[/quote]
The Seal punishments are given in fourths; the Trumps in thirds
(hail, fire, blood). You might see that these are what was given
to Egypt for not letting the COI go (remnant at the time).
Exodus 9:
22 And the Lord said unto Moses, Stretch forth thine hand toward
heaven, that there may be hail in all the land of Egypt, upon
man, and upon beast, and upon every herb of the field,
throughout the land of Egypt.
23 And Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and the Lord
sent thunder and hail, and the fire ran along upon the ground;
and the Lord rained hail upon the land of Egypt.
24 So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very
grievous, such as there was none like it in all the land of
Egypt since it became a nation.
25 And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that
was in the field, both man and beast; and the hail smote every
herb of the field, and brake every tree of the field.
26 Only in the land of Goshen, where the children of Israel
were, was there no hail.
This ^ comes down on John's apostate Judah as part of her
well-deserved covenant curses. Yet, it's only hail that the COI
escape. I take this to mean that there was some suffering by the
saints by the sacrificial mixing of blood with fire in John's
day. Time was cut short to prevent any more suffering of
Christians who hadn't heeded Jesus' warning to leave or who were
trapped. He had told some followers that they'd be purged by
fire, so we see the suffering of many saints who need
tribulation (purging) before approval.
[quote]Trees and grass are mentioned again with the Fifth Trump;
and note that now it seems that either not all the green grass
was burned up or it grew back.
Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not
hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither
any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in
their foreheads.
It is hard to believe that God wants to punish physical trees
and green grass in one case and then wants to protect them
later. [/quote]
The key there is the phrase "men who don't have the seal of
God". I take this to mean the non-elect. What immediately
follows in the verses is a plague of "locusts" (Roman legions
with their armour, stone "hailstones", scorpion ballistas,
raining fire "from heaven" [sky]) lasting 5 months which is the
length of the Roman siege of Jerusalem. Great torment John sees
in this frame. So many frightful and wondrous things within.
Supernatural occurrences.
This went through the three harvest periods, ending with the
last, the grape (winepress) when Titus' soldiers went mad as
they breached the final Temple walls for all their trouble,
slaughtering anyone of the city in sight.
One set fire to a Temple window which started the burning, but
Titus ran around trying to have it out since he had yet to
sacrifice there in the Roman way for victories, to set up his
ensigns with their medallic images, and blaspheme at the altars
by an awful thing he said and did at one I can scarcely believe.
He was the so-called image (image set up of his father in the
Temple) and mouth (breath) of his father, the Imperial Cultus'
Emperor Vespasian, a parody of the Christ and God Father and Son
relationship since the cult believed that those two horns were
"Messiah and God" promised to Israel [Titus sat as "God"] as
some kind of demonic joke. Titus had yet to collect its
treasures which he did by the veil to take to Rome. After all
this, he burned the Temple down.
Prior came the locust curse of Exodus 9 on Egypt. God warned the
COI if they broke their Covenant with him, they'd get the
plagues of Egypt. There are some things so awful to recount in
all of this that it makes me sick to my stomach reading it, and
I didn't live it.
The Day of the Lord is mistakenly seen by some as a single day.
It isn't. Too, the "latter days" was the time between Jesus'
ascension and reappearance.
[quote]When I studied Revelation, I researched how "grass" is
used in the Bible:
Isaiah 40:6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry?
All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the
flower of the field:
Psalms uses the word in a similar way.
Psalm 37:1 Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be
thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as
the green herb.
Jesus said something that baffled me for a while since the
mustard plant, in our physical world, remains a herb and never
becomes a tree.
Matthew 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which
a man took, and sowed in his field:
32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown,
it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the
birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.[/quote]
Keep in mind though that John's Revelation was meant for events
that would soon transpire not just in heaven but on earth. The
Romans had a scorched earth policy to deal with the rebels. They
went from village to village seeking them out and killing them.
They had had enough of them after they were defeated by them in
a battle. That's when they got super serious. That blood of 1600
stadia is the length of the Jordan River down through Israel
where many Jews were slaughtered by them, drowning drinking
their own blood in the waters. That would come up to the Roman
horses' bridles in water.
The Romans cut down all the trees within 15 kilometers of
Jerusalem. What for? Their war machines, towers, pallisades.
They actually constructed a wall themselves outside the city.
They crucified any who tried to escape it. The crucified were
mocked by how they were placed upon their stakes.
This was a total disaster for Judah, what Jesus prophesied would
happen as a result of its apostasy. And it still is for some
religious looking for their Temple and King some fifty years
after the return. You'd think they'd get to rebuilding as they
did under Zer back in the day. But, of course . . . . so
messed up.
A summary follows but there's so much more and some too
sickening to recount, especially with what went on within the
walls minus the Romans. Hell turned on itself. If you left, you
died. If you stayed, you wished you were dead.
HTML https://www.livius.org/articles/concept/roman-jewish-wars/roman-jewish-wars-4/
para . . . .
#Post#: 33785--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jews and Gentiles
By: Kerry Date: April 28, 2023, 7:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
P,
There are so many things to discuss; so for now, I address a few
points. Keeping in mind the words, "Thy kingdom come, thy will
be done, on earth as it is in heaven," I ask which of the three
heavens? My answer is the highest one, that of fire.
Something is proclaimed so there first and becomes true there.
That exerts an influence on the next level down, the second
heaven of "air" -- which influences the lowest heaven of "water"
where both paradise and hades are found. Finally it filters
down to the earth. Thus I see the Seals as occurring in "fire"
--- while the trumps happen in the "air" and vials in the
"water." The final step after the vials is making what has been
true in the third heaven true on the earth.
I compare the Seal of God to the marking of the doors with blood
which was placed at the top and one side. If you took a human
figure and marked it similarly, it would be the "single eye" in
the forehead and a hand. The mark of the beast has been
replaced. Note that few know what Jesus meant by having the
single eye.
Luke 11:34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when
thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but
when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.
The pure vision does not involve the corrupt imagination which I
believe is how Eve was seduced into falling. I believe Adam and
Eve were clothed in Light before the fall; and Genesis does not
say God killed animals to make clothes for them out of skins.
The word is singular "skin." I see Adam and his descendants
entering fleshly bodies, so they were clothed in skin.
I would say anyone "caught up to heaven" has to have relatively
pure sight in order to "see" the things in Heaven properly and
couldn't rise that high unless he did. Of course, there can be
false prophets who are deluded into thinking they visited
Heaven.
#Post#: 33787--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jews and Gentiles
By: paralambano Date: April 28, 2023, 1:03 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Kerry - ^
[quote]There are so many things to discuss; so for now, I
address a few points. Keeping in mind the words, "Thy kingdom
come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven," I ask
which of the three heavens? My answer is the highest one, that
of fire. Something is proclaimed so there first and becomes
true there. That exerts an influence on the next level down,
the second heaven of "air" -- which influences the lowest heaven
of "water" where both paradise and hades are found. Finally it
filters down to the earth. Thus I see the Seals as occurring
in "fire" --- while the trumps happen in the "air" and vials in
the "water." The final step after the vials is making what has
been true in the third heaven true on the earth.
I compare the Seal of God to the marking of the doors with blood
which was placed at the top and one side. If you took a human
figure and marked it similarly, it would be the "single eye" in
the forehead and a hand. The mark of the beast has been
replaced. Note that few know what Jesus meant by having the
single eye.
Luke 11:34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when
thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but
when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.
The pure vision does not involve the corrupt imagination which I
believe is how Eve was seduced into falling. I believe Adam and
Eve were clothed in Light before the fall; and Genesis does not
say God killed animals to make clothes for them out of skins.
The word is singular "skin." I see Adam and his descendants
entering fleshly bodies, so they were clothed in skin.
I would say anyone "caught up to heaven" has to have relatively
pure sight in order to "see" the things in Heaven properly and
couldn't rise that high unless he did. Of course, there can be
false prophets who are deluded into thinking they visited
Heaven. [/quote]
I'm assuming that you believe John had this pure sight otherwise
he would not have called his book a revelation of Jesus Christ
to have others read, hear, and understand in his day.
I agree with Adam/Eve being beings of light before they fell.
The death was spiritual. I liken it somewhat to someone who
falls out of love, that hollowness, empty feeling, living now in
a different "world" wishing it all back as it was "in love", a
breech of trust, a lie ruining it.
Ya, it's not that the act of imagining is in itself corrupt
since God imagines and we're in His image. It's what's imagined,
entertained, believed, acted on. I call it the shadow of what's
real. Eve and Adam had dominion over it. That which entered her
consciousness opposed to truth, she ought to have dismissed
straightaway much like errant thoughts that come into our minds
that we dismiss as silly or just plain wrong. When we don't do
that, we start following the thought trail into a rabbit hole
which can lead some to madness. What are "demons" but thoughts
which follow each other down into an abyss and manifest as
actions in the world by people? A mental-ward of the mind.
Scripture says that we are led by our "lusts" then, our evil
desires.
Ya, I think you're right about the Seals being fire, the Trumps
being air, and the Chalices being liquid. This is the way John
has set up his Book. Roughly Chapters 4 - 7 are about the Seals
(opening in part Daniel's sealed visions), Chapters mid-7 - 14
are about the Trumpets, and the rest 14 - end are about Water
(New Jerusalem etc.)
Ya, the final step "down" by your three is "earth". The Seals,
Trumps, Vials are all in the stipulations section of the COI's
Covenant, its ethics. Therefore, what John describes for the
most part is how these three come onto the Land as judgment
which I've been describing in part. There's manifestation of
them on earth among men in other words.
I see all of this accomplished already since Christ's sacrifice
was for all. But not all mankind knows it or even accepts it
(ignorantly or otherwise). So I see the earth being transformed
progressively as Christ will cover the planet. Things will get
better ultimately by what good God has established here. I don't
know where I am in the continuum for certain. I'd rather not
repeat though.
That's all and likely way too much for now.
para . . . .
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