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#Post#: 33595--------------------------------------------------
The Time of the End
By: TrevorL Date: April 11, 2023, 1:37 am
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The Time of the End
The following is a brief statement and overview of my
understanding of the term “the time of the end”. This phrase
occurs in the following passage and reading the rest of the
chapter helps to understand some aspects of this subject as to
when this occurs and what will be the outcome.
Daniel 11:40 (KJV): And at the time of the end shall the king
of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come
against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen,
and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and
shall overflow and pass over.
Daniel 11:40 is similar to many parts of Daniel 11 which speaks
of the King of the North and the King of the South and these
describe various Kings who have occupied the Northern Division
and Southern Division of the Grecian Empire and their
interactions and warfare. Taking the second part of Daniel
11:40, I consider this King of the North as the same as the King
from the North from Ezekiel 38 who invades the Holy Land and in
both Daniel 11:45 and Ezekiel 38 there is a Divine intervention,
resulting in the destruction of this power.
Daniel 11:40 also speaks of the King of the South who pushes at
“him” and I suggest Revelation 16:12 helps to understand who was
involved with this:
Revelation 16:12 (KJV): And the sixth angel poured out his vial
upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried
up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
I understand that the river Euphrates is a symbolic
representation of the Ottoman Empire, and this power was dried
up to some extent before World War 1, and to a greater extent as
a result of WW1. The three events of Lawrence of Arabia, the
Australian Light Horse attack on Beersheba, and General Allenby
entering Jerusalem summarise the drying up of the Ottoman power
in 1917. These drying up events are equivalent to the King of
the South pushing at the “him” of Daniel 11:40. The ultimate
purpose of this drying up was to facilitate the return of the
Jews to the Holy Land, in preparation for the return of Jesus
and the conversion of a significant remnant of the Jews after
the battle of Armageddon.
Kind regards
Trevor
#Post#: 33601--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Time of the End
By: paralambano Date: April 11, 2023, 7:09 am
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Trevor - ^
[quote]Just a quick glance at my tablet at 8:50 AM to see that
you have not taken up my challenge. To me the Preterist view is
similar to the Futurist view, in that they say, either it has
all happened, or it all has not happened, and hence we can more
or less ignore the Book of Revelation (and possibly Daniel) as
this does not apply to us.[/quote]
Nope. This also tells me that you don't know what you're talking
about. The full preterist view is that all the seals, chalices,
trumpets, millennium took place within the 40-year period 'twixt
Christ's ascension and the destruction of Jerusalem, "the holy
city" in 70 AD. All prophecy and vision was then sealed up,
meaning no more. This is how I can tell pre-millennialists like
yourself are wrong who still have prophecy and vision occurring.
It's also how I can tell modern-day prophets speaking about the
end-times don't know what they're talking about.
You might see that full preterists understand that God's word is
true. They understand that the "things" John saw and wrote about
"must shortly come to pass". Everything John saw.
You have inserted the meaning of "begin" to shortly come to pass
but this isn't what John wrote. The message was to the 7
churches standing in his day. They are no longer here. All the
seals happened in the 40-year period so stated. As I said,
you're correct about the first seal happening in John's day and
incorrect about all the rest since they don't "must shortly come
to pass" for you in contradiction to what John wrote. You
ridiculously stretch them across millennia when those of the 7
churches in John's time have all passed on. Some blessed hope!
Too, I can tell that you don't know what you're talking about by
your inability to tell me what form John's book is written as.
All this would at least go easier if you told me at least that
you really don't know.
Trevor? What form is John's book written in? Surely, someone as
studious as you claim to be can tell me this very basic info
that Biblical scholars understand. Or did your "end-time"
teachers fail to mention it? Or maybe they just don't know like
you just don't know?
Waiting.
There! Done!
para . . . .
#Post#: 33602--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Time of the End
By: TrevorL Date: April 11, 2023, 7:46 am
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Greetings again paralambano, [quote author=paralambano
link=topic=1537.msg33600#msg33600 date=1681214808]What I'll do
is post my last response in your "Yahweh" thread in your new one
since you are having trouble answering it in relation to your
stretching "the things which must shortly come to pass" into
millennia, and telling me what form John's book is written in,
an easy answer to give for one so studious as you. [/quote]Yes,
thank you for moving this.
[quote author=paralambano link=topic=1538.msg33601#msg33601
date=1681214978]
Nope. This also tells me that you don't know what you're talking
about. The full preterist view is that all the seals, chalices,
trumpets, millennium took place within the 40-year period 'twixt
Christ's ascension and the destruction of Jerusalem, "the holy
city" in 70 AD. [/quote]Perhaps for starters you may like to
respond to the drying up of the Euphrates Revelation 16:12. How
did this occur within the 40-year period?
[quote] Too, I can tell that you don't know what you're talking
about by your inability to tell me what form John's book is
written as. All this would at least go easier if you told me at
least that you really don't know. [/quote]Yes, I do not know
what you are asking, except it does use the word "signified",
representing that much of the events are depicted by signs. We
would need to discuss what this actually means and consider a
few examples. Signing out now until 8 AM tomorrow Australian
Eastern standard time, a bit over 9 hours. Could be busy
tomorrow but I will read any of your Posts. I do not think we
are making progress, so I am losing interest fast in your
pursuit of Preterism.
Actually I think I have a Preterist book on Revelation, and I
may browse it to see if it answers some of the things you seem
to be avoiding. I used to go to a lot of second hand book sales,
and when I came home and saw it was Preterist it was placed on
my bookshelf, and never again opened. It could be your favourite
book.
Kind regards
Trevor
#Post#: 33603--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Time of the End
By: paralambano Date: April 11, 2023, 12:15 pm
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Trevor - ^
I'm not avoiding anything. I told you that I'm very willing to
discuss details here with you. I also told you that all the
events John sees and writes about occur between Christ's
ascension and 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem. That's
quite a claim but there it is, the full preterist understanding.
The problem with pre-millennialists is that they don't know the
history in that time. If they did, they certainly wouldn't be
reading today's news headlines back into John's book - - they'd
see what John was on about in his day. Everything in his book
has an OT referrent. It has the most allusions and quotes from
the OT than any other NT book. That's another problem
pre-millennialists have. They don't know what John refers to
because they don't know the OT.
Look, "mate", I'm not trying to give you a hard time. As I said,
first things first. What kind or form are we looking at by the
Apocalypse needs to be understood first since that will set it
in context and reveal much. I know that answer. That helped me
out of pre-millennialism, just knowing that. Then, what did John
mean by the bookends. The things he sees and wrote to the 7
churches about which were shortly to come to pass. Churches
which don't exist today. That answers why he wrote it.
I'm not stalling. I want to establish context first because
everything else by detail will start to fall into place for you.
Signify. It's done by referrent symbolism. Things like the
"millennium". The Greeks already knew what that word meant and
it didn't mean a literal 1,000 years. I can explain that. John
doesn't invent that, just as he didn't event "Logos" for the
Word since the Greeks already long knew what he was referring in
his Gospel. This is the Jewish "Memra".
But you keep on asking about the drying up of the Euphrates.
Okay, here's a teaser. John is signifying something that anyone
who knew their OT history in John's day would know what he was
talking about. The seven churches were all in the western part
of Asia Minor. So is the island of Patmos in the sea west of the
7 churches. The "kings of the east" (Sohaemus and Antiochus in
John's day) would recall for the Christians in the 7 churches
the Babylonian Empire and how the Persians dried up the
Euphrates by diverting it to attack and conquer it in about 500
BC. In John's day, the Euphrates was the limit of the Roman
Empire and the kings of the east were two kings in John's day
who would join the Roman legions on their border to help lay
seige to Jerusalem (the harlot, Babylon). Now don't get all
itchy about my calling Jerusalem Babylon and harlot if you do.
There's a very strong irrefutable reason for it by understanding
first the form of John's book. That's why I'm on about that with
you and that is something you really need to know because
pre-millennialists I find don't know it. If they did, they'd end
up preterists.
So, John is signifying to the churches that Jerusalem in their
day shortly will have "kings of the east" crossing the Euphrates
joining the Roman army to lay waste to Jerusalem as the Persians
lay waste to ancient Babylon. The drying up of the Euphrates
would be the lasting image of the fall of ancient Babylon for
the churches. Everything John wrote was to encourage the 7
churches to persevere in testing times for them after Jesus'
ascension to the fall of the Mosaic economy. That was the "end",
the "latter days". I can demonstrate it all. Hang on, Christians
in John's day. Vengeance is God's. Jesus will return with
blessings and curses. The parousia is ensured, guaranteed.
So, please try to understand these two seminal things.
1. Everything came to pass between Jesus' ascension and 70 AD by
John's bookends because his book was written for those who were
alive in the 7 churches in his day, otherwise they would not be
blessed hearing it. It was read to them in their buildings out
loud and the congregants would hear it and be blessed knowing
their salvation was near, at the door, soon, coming shortly.
2. The form of John's book.
You say you will review what preterism says. Come back to me
with these answers. I'm a full preterist.
para . . . .
#Post#: 33604--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Time of the End
By: TrevorL Date: April 11, 2023, 5:42 pm
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Greetings again paralambano, [quote author=paralambano
link=topic=1538.msg33603#msg33603 date=1681233308]But you keep
on asking about the drying up of the Euphrates. Okay, here's a
teaser. John is signifying something that anyone who knew their
OT history in John's day would know what he was talking about.
The seven churches were all in the western part of Asia Minor.
So is the island of Patmos in the sea west of the 7 churches.
The "kings of the east" (Sohaemus and Antiochus in John's day)
would recall for the Christians in the 7 churches the Babylonian
Empire and how the Persians dried up the Euphrates by diverting
it to attack and conquer it in about 500 BC. In John's day, the
Euphrates was the limit of the Roman Empire and the kings of the
east were two kings in John's day who would join the Roman
legions on their border to help lay seige to Jerusalem (the
harlot, Babylon). Now don't get all itchy about my calling
Jerusalem Babylon and harlot if you do. There's a very strong
irrefutable reason for it by understanding first the form of
John's book. That's why I'm on about that with you and that is
something you really need to know because pre-millennialists I
find don't know it. If they did, they'd end up preterists.
So, John is signifying to the churches that Jerusalem in their
day shortly will have "kings of the east" crossing the Euphrates
joining the Roman army to lay waste to Jerusalem as the Persians
lay waste to ancient Babylon. The drying up of the Euphrates
would be the lasting image of the fall of ancient Babylon for
the churches. Everything John wrote was to encourage the 7
churches to persevere in testing times for them after Jesus'
ascension to the fall of the Mosaic economy. That was the "end",
the "latter days". [/quote]I appreciate your reply and I have
preserved this portion only, not because I agree, but this is a
portion, the drying up of the Euphrates, that I consider to be
applicable to "The (present) Time of the End", that is the
period mentioned by Daniel 11:40, and it is also the 6th Vial,
the period of time leading up to the return of Christ and
including the return of Christ and the battle of Armageddon. One
immediate question, Do you consider the siege of Jerusalem in AD
70 is "The Battle of Armageddon"?
I would like to endorse your suggestion that the language of
Revelation 16:12 alludes to the conquest of Babylon by the
Medo-Persians. I stated that there could be three layers to this
prophecy, but I do not agree with your view that Jerusalem was
Babylon. Yes, they were ripe for judgement because they had
crucified our Lord. I have briefly stated what I believe is the
principal layer, the removal of the Ottoman Power from the Holy
Land in 1917, by the British and Commonwealth forces, situated
in Egypt as the King of the South and pushing at the then
resident King of the North, the Ottomans. As stated this was by
means of Lawrence of Arabia, also the Australian light horse at
Beersheba, and once this line of defence between Gaza and
Beersheba was thus broken, the British forces could then push
the Ottoman out of the Holy Land and enter Jerusalem under
General Allenby.
The other layer using the figure of the Euphrates drying up
could be the general drying up of the circumstances of the
nations, all summed up by the figure of Babylon, the present
Kingdoms of men. Babylon is represented by Nebuchadnezzar who
ruled well and is depicted by the head of gold, and eventually
acknowledged the God of Israel and was humbled from his pride.
But at the time of the drying up of the river, Belshazzar was in
power, and he was a drunkard and despised the God of Israel and
deliberately exercised sacrilege by profaning the Vessels of the
Hebrew Temple. We are witnessing today the absolute decline in
society, people no longer are reserved, no longer read their
Bibles, are seeking only wealth and pleasure, they endorse and
encourage the advertising and support of everything that is
corrupt, and thus the very life source of the present kingdoms
of men is being dried up, awaiting the coming judgements in the
Battle of Armageddon.
Kind regards
Trevor
#Post#: 33605--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Time of the End
By: TrevorL Date: April 12, 2023, 12:22 am
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Greetings again paralambano, [quote author=paralambano
link=topic=1538.msg33603#msg33603 date=1681233308] I told you
that I'm very willing to discuss details here with you. I also
told you that all the events John sees and writes about occur
between Christ's ascension and 70 AD with the destruction of
Jerusalem. That's quite a claim but there it is, the full
preterist understanding. The problem with pre-millennialists is
that they don't know the history in that time. If they did, they
certainly wouldn't be reading today's news headlines back into
John's book - - they'd see what John was on about in his day.
Everything in his book has an OT referrent. It has the most
allusions and quotes from the OT than any other NT book. That's
another problem pre-millennialists have. They don't know what
John refers to because they don't know the OT. [/quote]Yes, I
would be interested in reading your Preterist perspective and
responding to some of this. But to broaden my treatment of "The
Time of the End" from a pre-millennial perspective I would like
to add what I consider are parallel passages to the two "Time of
the End" passages that I have suggested, that is Daniel 11:40-45
and Revelation 16:12-16. Perhaps this may test your last
statement above that I do not know the OT.
I consider Daniel 2 is a framework or foundation of the rest of
the Book of Daniel and also the Book of Revelation, in that to
some extent the Book of Revelation expands much of the detail of
the Book of Daniel. To be brief, the image has four metals,
representing four kingdoms or Empires and I understand that
these are Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. The latter end
of these kingdoms depict a subdivision of the Roman, depicted by
clay and iron and ten toes. The vision then depicts a stone cut
out of the mountain by some Divine power and smashing the image
and scattering the dust. The stone grows and fills the whole
earth.
Daniel 2:35,44 (KJV): 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass,
the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became
like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind
carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the
stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled
the whole earth. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God
of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and
the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall
break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall
stand for ever.
At the return of Jesus he will destroy the armies at the Battle
of Armageddon and replace the kingdoms of men with the Kingdom
of God. The stone strikes the image on the feet, when the Roman
Empire is subdivided and weak, not at the height of its power as
it was in AD 70.
Daniel 7 is in many respects parallel with Daniel 2 but it gives
more detail about the 10 sub-divisions of the Roman Empire and
the development of a Little Horn that subdues three of the other
horns. I understand that this speaks of the development of the
Papacy and the time period of 1260 years has a dual fulfillment,
starting with the rise of the Papacy under Justinian in say 589
AD to the start of the demise of the Papacy with the French
Revolution in AD 1789, and also starting with Phocas in say AD
608-610 to AD 1868-1870 the loss of the Papal States and other
restrictions at that time and the formation of the nation of
Italy. The end verses of Daniel 7 speak about the overthrow of
both the Papacy and the Roman Empire, but also speaks that the
nations or territories represented by the other three beasts
will survive.
Another parallel prophecy is Ezekiel 38 which describes the
return of the Jews to the Holy Land in unbelief of Jesus as the
Messiah, an invasion from the North, similar to Daniel 11:40-45,
and again Divine intervention, which I would equate with the
stone striking the image on the feet, and also as the Battle of
Armageddon.
I could expand on the detail of each of these three prophecies
and could also add Joel 3 and Zechariah 14, but the above should
be enough to reinforce the pre=millennial view. Perhaps one
final reference, Isaiah 2:1-4 is a vision soon after the Battle
of Armageddon, and at the beginning of the Kingdom of God on the
earth after the return of Jesus, and after the conversion of a
significant remnant of natural Israel and the subjugation of the
nations, who then learn the ways of God during the 1000 years.
Kind regards
Trevor
#Post#: 33606--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Time of the End
By: paralambano Date: April 12, 2023, 6:19 am
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Trevor - ^
There's no such thing as a "Battle of Armageddon". Titus' troops
gather on the plains of Megiddo near Mount Carmel. Mounts can
also mean "cities" and Caesarea is close by. His troops gather
for their assault on Jerusalem.
The "four winds" are the four legions that took part in
Jerusalem's destruction. One of them contained soldiers of the
"kings of the east". I can name them all for you. Their standard
images are mentioned by John. One of them was named for Apollo.
Ring a bell in Rev? There's a Queen mentioned in Rev. I can name
her too and she ain't anybody today. She was alive in John's day
and also a referrant.
Please try to understand:
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to
shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of
Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of
this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein:
for the time is at hand.
And:
22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy
of this book: for the time is at hand.
You've disappointed me You come back without a clue as to the
form of the Apocalypse. This is why you want to talk about news
headlines today, every one of which has failed as fulfillment of
the end time.
Frogs, Trevor. Frogs are mentioned in Rev 16. What's the OT
referrant, my man? No, not today's referrant but what John's
audience in that day knew. I can tell you that if you don't
know. If you do, you are on your way.
Listen, I will constantly remind you of this so that you learn
some respect for what God meant. You don't have any when you say
that shortly come to pass means stretching things into
millennia. No, Trevor, God wasn't waiting for you to be born to
signal His end time. If that's what you believe, get over
yourself. LOL.
You want to talk about the Euphrates drying up today but John's
audience would know nothing of drought and mismanagement today.
But they knew the Babylon referrent meant Rome and Jerusalem in
their day both called that in scripture. You might see that two
became one flesh. No King but Caesar, yes? Jerusalem, God's
"wife" in bed with Rome, the scarlet woman riding on the
"beast", a parody of the Roman goddess riding on its 7 hills.
All this John's audience knew if Trevor might not.
So much more detailed and to the point than Trevor's laughable
"Battle of Armageddon" and perhaps hydrogen bombs, King Charles
as AntiChrist if so as some not knowledgeable about John's OT
referrants claim. Are you to tell me that the word Apocalypse
means the end of the world as pop culture today thinks it means?
LOL.
Look, John names the churches in a clockwise manner. Why? I can
tell you that. It was important in his day. Today? Where are
they?
John was revealing things to the 7 Churches which must shortly
come to pass. All things. His audiences were to undergo severe
testing by persecutions and he was telling them to hang on
through it, their salvation was nigh in that day, not 2,000
years into the future. I tell you, what happened in John's day
is far more precise than your Euphrates drying up today. Also
far more revolting.
You ought to stone John as a false prophet if you believe that
what he said must shortly come to pass didn't in his day. A
mockery of God's chosen vessel.
You are missing keys.
para . . . .
#Post#: 33608--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Time of the End
By: TrevorL Date: April 12, 2023, 8:34 am
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Greetings again paralambano,[quote author=paralambano
link=topic=1538.msg33606#msg33606 date=1681298378]There's no
such thing as a "Battle of Armageddon". [/quote] Interesting
that you should say that, but I take the highlighted statement
"The Battle of Armageddon" as a literal title for the Battle
that will occur in the future, and I will quote the whole 6th
Vial.
Revelation 16:12-16 (KJV): 12 And the sixth angel poured out his
vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was
dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be
prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out
of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast,
and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the
spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the
kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the
battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a
thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments,
lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered
them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue
Armageddon.
Now this is not the Roman siege of Jerusalem, firstly
because "the kings of the earth and of the whole world" are
involved, and secondly God does not gather them to Jerusalem,
but to "a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon".
I mentioned Ezekiel 38 in a previous Post, claiming that
this is parallel to what we read here in Revelation 16:12-16 and
Daniel 11:40-45. I would like to mention three verses from
Ezekiel 38. The first is Ezekiel 38:1-2 and I would like to
state that I believe that Rosh refers to Russia as the head of
the confederacy that invades from the north:
Ezekiel 38:1-2 (RV): 1 And the word of the LORD came unto me,
saying, 2 Son of man, set thy face toward Gog, of the land of
Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy
against him,
I would like to mention an encounter that one of my
fellowship had at work. He had discussed this with a JW who did
not see that there is any significance that the Jews would
return to the Holy Land. My mate also mentioned that Ezekiel
38:2 is referring to Russia. The JW came to me shortly before he
retired and said he had a discussion with my mate, and derided
his view concerning Russia. This discussion had occurred shortly
after the demise of the Soviet Union. I was not persuaded by my
JW friend to change my opinion, despite his apparent mirth at
our belief, so I asked him, who did he consider to be the King
of the North, (implying both Ezekiel 38:2 and Daniel 11:40). He
was taken aback to some extent, and did not give an answer. I
could ask you the same question also, but I imagine you do not
expect that Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11:40-45 will be fulfilled in
the future, especially as you deny the Battle of Armageddon.
One of our pioneering expositors strongly claimed that the
Rosh here stands for Russia. He wrote the following in his
preface to his book "Elpis Israel" in 1850:
The future movements of Russia are notable signs of the
times, because they are predicted in the Scriptures of truth.
The Russian Autocracy in its plenitude, and on the verge of
dissolution, is the Image of Nebuchadnezzar standing upon the
Mountains of Israel, ready to be smitten by the Stone. When
Russia makes its grand move for the building-up of its
Image-empire then let the reader know that the end of all
things, as at present constituted, is at hand. The
long-expected, but stealthy, advent of the King of Israel will
be on the eve of becoming a fact; and salvation will be to those
who not only looked for it, but have trimmed their lamps by
believing the gospel of the kingdom unto the obedience of faith,
and the perfection thereof in “fruits meet for repentance”.
He also claimed on page 441 of the same book that the
modern day "Merchants of Tarshish" mentioned in Ezekiel 38:13 is
the British Power, and he also mentions the return of the Jews
to the Holy Land before the Battle of Armageddon, based partly
on Ezekiel 38:12 in the following:
The truth is, there are two stages in the restoration of
the Jews, the first is before the battle of Armageddon; and the
second, after it; but both pre-millennial. God has said, “I will
save the tents of Judah first”.
There is, then, a partial and primary restoration of Jews before
the manifestation, which is to serve as the nucleus, or basis,
of future operations in the restoration of the rest of the
tribes after he has appeared in the kingdom. The pre-adventual
colonization of Palestine will be on purely political
principles; and the Jewish colonists will return in unbelief of
the Messiahship of Jesus, and of the truth as it is in him. They
will emigrate thither as agriculturists and traders, in the hope
of ultimately establishing their commonwealth, but more
immediately of getting rich in silver and gold by commerce with
India, and in cattle and goods by their industry at home under
the efficient protection of the British power. And this their
expectation will not be deceived; for, before Gogue invades
their country it is described by the prophet, as “a land of
unwalled villages, whose inhabitants are at rest, and dwell
safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither
bars nor gates; and possessed of silver and gold, cattle and
goods, dwelling in the midst of the land” Ezekiel 38:12. Now any
person acquainted with the present insecure condition of
Palestine under the Ottoman dominion must be satisfied from the
testimony, that some other power friendly to Israel must then
have become paramount over the land, which is able to guarantee
protection to them, and to put the surrounding tribes in fear.
This is all that is needed, namely, security for life and
property, and Palestine would be as eligible for Jewish
emigration as the United States have proved for the Gentiles.
But to what part of the world shall we look for a power
whose interests will make it willing, as it is able, to plant
the ensign of civilization upon the mountains of Israel? The
reader will, doubtless, anticipate my reply from what has gone
before. I know not whether the men, who at present contrive the
foreign policy of Britain, entertain the idea of assuming the
sovereignty of the Holy Land, and of promoting its colonization
by the Jews; their present intentions, however, are of no
importance one way or the other, because they will be compelled,
by events soon to happen, to do what under existing
circumstances, heaven and earth combined could not move them to
attempt. The present decisions of “statesmen” are destitute of
stability. A shooting star in the political firmament is
sufficient to disturb all the forces of their system; and to
stultify all the theories of their political astronomy. The
finger of God has indicated a course to be pursued by Britain
which cannot be evaded, and which her counsellors will not only
be willing, but eager, to adopt when the crisis comes upon them.
The decree has long since gone forth which calls upon the Lion
of Tarshish to protect the Jews.
Now some of this is coloured by the time in which he lived, but
the essential detail and understanding of the events is clear,
and most of this has been fulfilled except the actual Battle of
Armageddon. I understand that a preliminary event to this
invasion is that Russia will invade and take over Istanbul
first, thus fulfilling Daniel 11:40.
Kind regards
Trevor
#Post#: 33610--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Time of the End
By: paralambano Date: April 12, 2023, 12:30 pm
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Trevor - ^
Please try to understand:
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to
shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of
Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of
this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein:
for the time is at hand.
And:
22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy
of this book: for the time is at hand
What you give I've seen all before. Yawn.
The Great Day of the Lord is the time Jerusalem was under seige
by the Romans leading to her destruction. Troops gather before
an assault. There were battles fought at Megiddo in the OT but
the Romans used that area as a staging ground before their march
to Jerusalem. There's not a word in the NT about a great battle
at the end time fought on the plains of Megiddo, however some
fantasize about it.
You see that Jesus tells his followers to clear out of Jerusalem
when the city is being surrounded by troops. That was "the end"
of the old heaven (Temple) and Earth (the Land) (the Romans
salted Judah). The elements of the Old Covenant were "burned
up", its ordinances, sacrifices, not the whole world. Christ was
our once and for all sacrifice. John is writing a New Testament.
The new Heaven and Earth is the Church, the New Jerusalem, Bride
of Christ. Judah's judgment was due to her apostasy (what Jesus
railed at) and for murdering her King. The Sanhedrin were told
by Jesus they'd see his Great Day, coming on the Cloud as God to
judge. This was the First Seal opened. Christ having taken down
his Bow (Kings hung their bows over their thrones in times of
peace). Mind, Jesus was seen standing in the Throne "room" in
Heaven. He will ride back on the White Horse as Victor at that
time (70 AD). Jesus has come to make war by the Romans v
apostate Judah.This was also the end of the Old Covenant age
which was already vanishing in Paul's day. Just like God used
foreigners to chasten the COI for their apostasy like the
Assyrians who ruined the Northern Kingdom of Israel, God used
the Romans v Judah in 70 AD.
In vain you need to have a Temple today in Jerusalem to have
John's book across millennia. God has prevented it since 70 AD.
Good luck going against this, Trevor.
Whoever told you Rosh means Russia doesn't know Hebrew. Rosh
means "head" as in "first" wherever it's used in the Bible. Who
comes against modern Israel with swords, wooden bows, and on
horses? Totally idiotic. John doesn't see tanks and rockets. In
fact, he uses symbolic language to tell of the weapons of his
day. Stingers were bowmen who rode on the backs of chariots. The
Roman legions advancing with their shields covering them looked
like locusts. Gog comes from four corners, not from a single
place. Gog and Magog are symbolic of the entire Roman Empire
when Judah was back in the Land after their captivity. The world
at that time was the "known world", not ours today. The Roman
army had soldiers from many nations within it. How else could
they keep their vast territories. That's the nations gathering
against the apostate city, not Israel today which is a secular
state ruled by many different political views. It's a regular
State today.
All of what you wrote takes place within the generation Jesus
said would see him Coming. He told it to the Sanhedrin, the
("you") judging him, and he told it to his disciples, John among
them in the Olivet, and later again by vision.
Your eschatology has John and Jesus as false prophets since both
said that the end would come shortly. And it did. The evidence
is the lack of a Temple on the Mount. Why? Christ came and
destroyed it.
Your eschatology is future-pessimistic since it requires a
future "Great Tribulation" and a great AntiChrist. Mine is
optimistic since that's already done and Christians in spite of
still being persecuted (as are other faiths) are assured a
predestined abode since the New Jerusalem has already married
the Bridegroom, not yet waiting for it. This leads to a life
lead confidently, not in fear and guesswork as to what the
future holds.
The net is full of idiotic prognostications signifying nothing.
Failure after failure. What a joke some make of their faith.
para . . . .
#Post#: 33613--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Time of the End
By: TrevorL Date: April 12, 2023, 5:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Greetings again paralambano,[quote author=paralambano
link=topic=1538.msg33610#msg33610 date=1681320655] The Great Day
of the Lord is the time Jerusalem was under seige by the Romans
leading to her destruction. [/quote]A brief reply to a few of
your comments. and then I will add another passage that runs
parallel to the other "Time of the End" passages. Yes, AD 70 was
a very significant event, bringing to end the Mosaic system, and
overthrowing Jerusalem and destroying the Temple.
[quote]You see that Jesus tells his followers to clear out of
Jerusalem when the city is being surrounded by troops. That was
"the end" of the old heaven (Temple) and Earth (the Land) (the
Romans salted Judah). The elements of the Old Covenant were
"burned up", its ordinances, sacrifices, not the whole world.
Christ was our once and for all sacrifice. John is writing a New
Testament. [/quote]Yes but Jesus in the Mount of Olives prophecy
also states the following indicating a long period of time, and
then a reversal of the down-treading of Jerusalem. The actual
cessation of the treading down of Jerusalem occurred in 1967
when the Jews regained possession of Jerusalem.
Luke 21:24 (KJV): And they shall fall by the edge of the sword,
and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem
shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the
Gentiles be fulfilled.
[quote]The new Heaven and Earth is the Church, the New
Jerusalem, Bride of Christ.[/quote]The New Heaven and Earth is
described in Isaiah and is not the Church:
Isaiah 65:17-20 (KJV): 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and
a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor comee
into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which
I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her
people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my
people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her,
nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an
infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days:
for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner
being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
[quote]In vain you need to have a Temple today in Jerusalem to
have John's book across millennia. God has prevented it since 70
AD. Good luck going against this, Trevor. [/quote]
[color=blue]Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son
of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come
to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house
shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be
exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to
the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and
he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for
out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD
from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and
shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into
plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not
lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any
more.
Last time I listened or watched the news there still seems to be
a lot of warfare in Ukraine.
[quote]Whoever told you Rosh means Russia doesn't know Hebrew.
Rosh means "head" as in "first" wherever it's used in the Bible.
[/quote]Yes, Rosh represents "head", hence the different
translations "chief prince" KJV and prince of Rosh RV. Many
historians identify Rosh here as the Rus, the ancient name of
the Russians, and some of this is also preserved today in the
title Belarus.
[quote] Gog comes from four corners, not from a single place.
[/quote]Now you are quoting from Revelation 20 which is at the
end of the 1000 years, but I am speaking about Ezekiel 38 and
they have also Persia, Ethiopia and Libya as confederates.
[quote]The evidence is the lack of a Temple on the Mount. Why?
Christ came and destroyed it. [/quote]Isaiah 2:1-4, Ezekiel
40-48 and Zechariah 14 indicate that the Temple will be rebuilt
and be the centre of the worship in the 1000 years with Jesus
upon the Temple Throne of David as King/Priest.
[quote]Your eschatology is future-pessimistic since it requires
a future "Great Tribulation" and a great AntiChrist. [/quote]I
would not use the term great Antichrist, as I consider the
Papacy is the Antichrist, and he will oppose Christ after
Armageddon, not before.
[quote]The net is full of idiotic prognostications signifying
nothing. Failure after failure. What a joke some make of their
faith.[/quote]Yes, but I do not endorse the many
tele-evangelists and others and their speculations. We have held
the same teaching for over 170 years now and much of what was
anticipated has already been fulfilled.
Zechariah 14 is also parallel to Daniel 11:40-45, Revelation
16:12-16 and Ezekiel 38 giving additional detail. I suggest it
is worth reading the whole chapter. It speaks of the future
capture of Jerusalem, the return of Jesus, the overthrow of the
nations that come against Jerusalem, and the establishment of
worship at Jerusalem during the 1000 years - these events are
definitely not AD 70.
Zechariah 14:1-4 (KJV): 1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh,
and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I
will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the
city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women
ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity,
and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the
city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those
nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet
shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is
before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall
cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,
and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain
shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zechariah 14:9-11 (KJV): 9 And the LORD shall be king over all
the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name
one. 10 All the land shall be turnedc as a plain from Geba to
Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and
inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of
the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of
Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses. 11 And men shall dwell in
it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem
shall be safely inhabited.
Zechariah 14:16 (KJV): And it shall come to pass, that every one
that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem
shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD
of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Kind regards
Trevor
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