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#Post#: 28259--------------------------------------------------
Making the Crooked Straight
By: Kerry Date: June 26, 2021, 9:54 pm
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This paradox just got brought to my attention. Some of my best
insights have come as the result of seeming contradictions in
the Bible. I have no solution for this one, not yet, and I'd
appreciate any insight anyone else may have.
Ecclesiastes 1:15 That which is crooked cannot be made straight:
and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.
Isaiah 40:4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain
and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made
straight, and the rough places plain:
#Post#: 28262--------------------------------------------------
Re: Making the Crooked Straight
By: paralambano Date: June 27, 2021, 7:04 am
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Kerry - ^
You appeared to have juxtaposed two verses needing no
juxtapositioning.
In the first, Solomon gives life meaning by his summary in 12:
Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all
mankind. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including
every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.
Isaiah in 40 gives prophesying comfort to those who trust in God
for salvation.
This has nothing to do with a paradox or contradiction. The
Teacher asks who can make straight what God has made crooked.
Isaiah says God can straighten things out. In other words, God
is All. Only worship and trust God. All will be well.
para . . .
#Post#: 28267--------------------------------------------------
Re: Making the Crooked Straight
By: Kerry Date: June 27, 2021, 12:58 pm
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[quote author=paralambano link=topic=1504.msg28262#msg28262
date=1624795443]
Kerry - ^
You appeared to have juxtaposed two verses needing no
juxtapositioning.
In the first, Solomon gives life meaning by his summary in 12:
Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all
mankind. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including
every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.
[/quote]He can't be saying we shouldn't try to fix the things
that we have power to fix. Is he saying some things are beyond
us and not to fret?
[quote]Isaiah in 40 gives prophesying comfort to those who trust
in God for salvation.
This has nothing to do with a paradox or contradiction. The
Teacher asks who can make straight what God has made crooked.
Isaiah says God can straighten things out. In other words, God
is All. Only worship and trust God. All will be well.
para . . .
[/quote]Is it God or people who made things crooked? I think
people have and often then find out that they can't straighten
out what they made crooked.
#Post#: 28269--------------------------------------------------
Re: Making the Crooked Straight
By: paralambano Date: June 28, 2021, 6:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Kerry - ^
We have the power to fix the so-called meaninglessness or vanity
of life by believing in and trusting God. That's Solomon's
solution.
Isaiah's using figurative speech to make the point that God's in
control, the only power. I take what God makes crooked to mean
His frustration of evil:
The LORD protects the strangers; He supports the fatherless and
the widow; But He makes crooked the way of the wicked.
(Ps.146:9)
para . . . .
#Post#: 28274--------------------------------------------------
Re: Making the Crooked Straight
By: Kerry Date: June 28, 2021, 8:09 am
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[quote author=paralambano link=topic=1504.msg28269#msg28269
date=1624880708]
Kerry - ^
We have the power to fix the so-called meaninglessness or vanity
of life by believing in and trusting God. That's Solomon's
solution.
[/quote]I wouldn't put it that way. There are some things in
this life we cannot fix. We lack the power. It's not there,
"that which is wanting cannot be numbered." The verse you
quoted suggested to me that Solomon is giving us practical
advice -- what can we do?
Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all
mankind.
Do this, and leave the rest up to God. Trust Him to do the
right thing.
For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every
hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.
That suggests that some things will get corrected when we are
judged. . . after the death of the physical body.
If I run a red light and kill someone, I doubt God is going to
resurrect them if I repent. The regret of that sin is with me
and cannot be erased in this life. I can lessen it however by
doing my best to support his family if he had one and if they
need help. I might also escape all judgment for it if I laid
down my own life to save another's. Even risking my life to
save another's would matter.
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay
down his life for his friends.
1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among
yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
I also might maim someone accidentally by reckless driving. I
doubt that would be fixed just because I told God I wanted Him
to correct it.
I think now of the thief who repented. He admitted it was just
for him to die. Jesus didn't liberate him from his punishment.
I think it was probably better for him to die that way as a
punishment from his fellow man. Later when God judged him, He
would find that many sins had already been paid for and
corrected.
[quote]Isaiah's using figurative speech to make the point that
God's in control, the only power. I take what God makes crooked
to mean His frustration of evil:
The LORD protects the strangers; He supports the fatherless and
the widow; But He makes crooked the way of the wicked.
(Ps.146:9)
para . . . .[/quote]I do not read that literally. I read it
to mean that God's laws do it. If I jump off a cliff and die,
you could say God killed me since He put the law of gravity in
place; but I would not say God was personally taking notice of
it and deciding to kill me.
Think of what happened in Exodus to Pharaoh. Sometimes it reads
the LORD hardened his heart while at other times it says Pharaoh
hardened it. Nor can I believe God Himself tried to kill Moses
as some may read the text by being too literal. Moses opened
the door to the demonic and a demon slipped in -- that is how
God's laws work. In that way only can I believe the LORD tried
to kill Moses.
I believe when people willfully reject something they know is
right, they are embracing mental instability; and they can
observe their minds deteriorating since it should serve as a
warning to them. If they persist, they'll just get crazier and
crazier; and that too can be a good thing for others since fewer
people will want to be around them. The crazier and less
effective an evil person is, the better for him too since he'll
have fewer sins to answer for.
#Post#: 28278--------------------------------------------------
Re: Making the Crooked Straight
By: paralambano Date: June 28, 2021, 9:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Kerry - ^
[quote]I wouldn't put it that way. There are some things in
this life we cannot fix. We lack the power. It's not there,
"that which is wanting cannot be numbered." The verse you
quoted suggested to me that Solomon is giving us practical
advice -- what can we do? [/quote]
It is practical advice to believe and trust God. Some believe
there's nothing beyond the grave and so live accordingly. But if
one believes that God judges beyond, that there's an afterlife,
then one at the very least might check their behaviour to some
degree.
[quote]Do this, and leave the rest up to God. Trust Him to do
the right thing.
For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every
hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.
That suggests that some things will get corrected when we are
judged. . . after the death of the physical body. [/quote]
We're judged now minute-by-minute since the day of salvation is
the eternal now. We either think correctly or incorrectly. If we
believe we die, then we believe in a power other than eternal
Life. We haven't moved from life to Life and are among the
sleeping dead as Jesus called some by his dead burying the dead.
Actually, it's God who does All. We "tune in" by prayer.
[quote]If I run a red light and kill someone, I doubt God is
going to resurrect them if I repent. The regret of that sin is
with me and cannot be erased in this life. I can lessen it
however by doing my best to support his family if he had one and
if they need help. I might also escape all judgment for it if I
laid down my own life to save another's. Even risking my life
to save another's would matter.
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay
down his life for his friends.
1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among
yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
I also might maim someone accidentally by reckless driving. I
doubt that would be fixed just because I told God I wanted Him
to correct it. [/quote]
Both you and the person you run down have to wake up to the
spiritual fact that there's no running down or death in God's
universe. That awakening is God's doing when one is willing. If
you were awake, the accident wouldn't have happened or you could
resurrect the person by God you apparently harmed just as Jesus
said we would.
[quote]I think now of the thief who repented. He admitted it
was just for him to die. Jesus didn't liberate him from his
punishment. I think it was probably better for him to die that
way as a punishment from his fellow man. Later when God judged
him, He would find that many sins had already been paid for and
corrected.[/quote]
Death's an enemy, not a friend to anyone. It rules thievery and
all the other sins since they're based on a sense of lack or the
finite. Jesus told the thief who saw that by his repentence that
he'd be in paradise with him that day. The thief passed from
life into Life bypassing death. He appeared to die to the dead,
those who hold his beliefs to one degree or another.
[quote]I do not read that literally. I read it to mean that
God's laws do it. If I jump off a cliff and die, you could say
God killed me since He put the law of gravity in place; but I
would not say God was personally taking notice of it and
deciding to kill me. [/quote]
I would never read it that God killed me by gravity since
gravity as we experience it is a perversion of the divine idea
behind it. God is never a killer since He is eternal Life
itself. God doesn't know death as such just as we can't know
3X3=10 as I've explained "knowing". God is All Life. Death's the
believed illusion.
You have God killing by proxy if you believe that He created
gravity to harm His children. Too, that belief has Jesus a
sinner with his defiance of God's "law" of gravity by his
walking on water. He also has Peter doing it. But scripture says
that nothing is added or subtracted from creation and if God has
Jesus transgressing his "law", then Jesus has subtracted from
it. But you might see that's not the case since God's creation
is entirely spiritual since God is All Spirit.
[quote]Think of what happened in Exodus to Pharaoh. Sometimes
it reads the LORD hardened his heart while at other times it
says Pharaoh hardened it. Nor can I believe God Himself tried
to kill Moses as some may read the text by being too literal.
Moses opened the door to the demonic and a demon slipped in --
that is how God's laws work. In that way only can I believe the
LORD tried to kill Moses.
I believe when people willfully reject something they know is
right, they are embracing mental instability; and they can
observe their minds deteriorating since it should serve as a
warning to them. If they persist, they'll just get crazier and
crazier; and that too can be a good thing for others since fewer
people will want to be around them. The crazier and less
effective an evil person is, the better for him too since he'll
have fewer sins to answer for. [/quote]
The Lord hardening Pharaoh's heart is Pharaoh not obeying God's
spiritual laws, not God doing something negative. Pharaoh's
running into a brick wall unwilling to understand why 3X3=9, not
10. So he keeps on making mistakes.
Just because 3X3=10 appears, it does not make it necessarily
real. Actually, it doesn't exist mathematically so if we believe
it's true, we are believing in nothing as substance.
para . . . .
#Post#: 28282--------------------------------------------------
Re: Making the Crooked Straight
By: George Date: June 28, 2021, 11:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
It is practical advice to believe and trust God. Some believe
there's nothing beyond the grave and so live accordingly. But if
one believes that God judges beyond, that there's an afterlife,
then one at the very least might check their behaviour to some
degree.
[/quote]
How is believing in the unknown and trusting in such practical?
If one checks their behavior out of fear of an afterlife or some
punishment in an afterlife then their motives are selfish, and
if there truly was a god who knows ones heart, they have only
fooled themselves.
#Post#: 28284--------------------------------------------------
Re: Making the Crooked Straight
By: paralambano Date: June 29, 2021, 6:27 am
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George - ^
How is believing that across the western sea there was land
practical for Colombus? That was unknown, yes?
To know God is life eternal. Believers ought to begin from
there.
Selfish? But we're told to love our neighbour as ourselves, no?
Believers understand that we're worth saving since were made in
God's image and likeness.
para . . . .
#Post#: 28290--------------------------------------------------
Re: Making the Crooked Straight
By: Kerry Date: June 29, 2021, 5:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=1504.msg28282#msg28282
date=1624941481]
How is believing in the unknown and trusting in such practical?
If one checks their behavior out of fear of an afterlife or some
punishment in an afterlife then their motives are selfish, and
if there truly was a god who knows ones heart, they have only
fooled themselves.
[/quote]Ah, but there are other people to consider. Maybe my
neighbors would like to rob my house but are afraid of the
police. That's fine with me. Sure their motives are selfish,
but it prevents them from robbing me.
It would be better for people to keep God's commandments because
they care about other people; but if they're selfish, then the
idea of God punishing them may prevent them from hurting others.
They may discover, if they behave well out of fear, that other
people like them and that they like others. They may discover
love.
Psalm 111:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: a
good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his
praise endureth for ever.
#Post#: 28294--------------------------------------------------
Re: Making the Crooked Straight
By: paralambano Date: June 30, 2021, 8:51 am
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Kerry - ^
Agreed. Better level 1 than none at all. That benefits others.
para . . . .
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