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#Post#: 27927--------------------------------------------------
Re: Job's Sacrifices
By: Kerry Date: May 12, 2021, 4:14 pm
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[quote author=bbyrd009 link=topic=1497.msg27925#msg27925
date=1620846502]
well, *it pleased Him to crush Him* right, so i dunno about
“excusing” the guilty, mainly bc “guilty” might still be done in
ignorance, or not? But one might forgive them, not knowing
whether it was intentional or no, maybe? As you say, if someone
is repentant it changes the dynamic i guess.[/quote]Isaiah 53
has been read by Christians for a long time as referring to
Jesus; but does it? Or have they been trying to justify certain
beliefs by looking for passages they think may fit?
I find it hard to read Isaiah 53 as referring to Jesus. I
used to do that until I ran into a Jew who pointed several
things in the chapter out, and I changed my mind.
It is also written:
Leviticus 22:24 Ye shall not offer unto the Lord that which is
bruised, or crushed, or broken, or cut; neither shall ye make
any offering thereof in your land.
It is interesting though that the word translated as crushed or
bruised in Isaiah 53 shows up several times in the book of Job.
Sins of ignorance were easily forgiven in the Old Testament era.
Some sins were considered so trivial, all they required was for
the person to realize he'd made a mistake. Then he was expected
not to do it again.
[quote]Animal sacrifices i would put in a diff context, mainly
bc im noticing the symbolic definitions of most of the animals
being sacrificed? “Sheep, ram, dove,” etc?
[/quote]Notice that only the "clean" animals could be used as
sacrifices; and no one forced these animals into it. The
animals made a covenant with God about it. The clean animals
could act as sacrifices and the unclean animals acted in another
role "bearing" some of the uncleanness in man which he hadn't
repented of yet.
Genesis 9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant
which I make between me and you and every living creature that
is with you, for perpetual generations:
#Post#: 27930--------------------------------------------------
Re: Job's Sacrifices
By: meshak Date: May 13, 2021, 9:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=1497.msg27892#msg27892
date=1620563481]
And how does that get expressed? Can we give God anything He
doesn't have? The only thing we have to give Him is our love.
Can we say we love God if we are injuring His other children?
Can we sin against our neighbors and say we love God?
So did Job love his wife and children? I tend to think maybe he
didn't, not at first.
[/quote]
We just don't know how God judges us.
He judges our hearts which is so complicated.
#Post#: 27931--------------------------------------------------
Re: Job's Sacrifices
By: paralambano Date: May 13, 2021, 11:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
In general, I believe Isaiah 53 and other Isaiac chapters are
about Jesus, but I want to address the God pleased part by His
putting a hurt on Jesus, assuming it is about Jesus.
I believe that God was pleased that Jesus was willing to accede
to His will to suffer like humans by human consciousness even
though he was innocent of them so that we too can be innocent if
we are willing to accept his way.
The bruising (the cup) is Jesus' taking on of human
consciousness with its apparent pains, not some big man sitting
on a throne rubbing his hands with glee like some sadist
knocking about his innocent son.
He took our error (sins) (human consciousness and therefore died
like a man) upon himself sacrificially this way. Thus, God's
lookaway at Jesus' cry and death since God doesn't "see" death
and sin. Jesus suffered by it for God's and his love of us to
demonstrate later that Divine Consciousness is All and all
are/can be in that All.
The Divine will is for us to leave human consciousness for Him
(Divine Consciousness) just like Jesus did and God's will be
done assuredly for all since God is no failure I believe.
Nothing added to or subtracted from the work of his hands.
para . . . .
#Post#: 27932--------------------------------------------------
Re: Job's Sacrifices
By: Mark W Date: May 13, 2021, 12:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=1497.msg27927#msg27927
date=1620854071]
Isaiah 53 has been read by Christians for a long time as
referring to Jesus; but does it? Or have they been trying to
justify certain beliefs by looking for passages they think may
fit?[/quote]hmm, most (all) Christians that i have discussed
this with seem to resist the idea of Is53 being about Jesus at
all
[quote]
I find it hard to read Isaiah 53 as referring to Jesus. I
used to do that until I ran into a Jew who pointed several
things in the chapter out, and I changed my mind. [/quote]no
offense meant to Jews, but they are still to this day putting
milk and meat in different shelves, literally, and wouldn’t an
actual Jew be more inclined to take the other side here anyway?
[quote]
It is also written:
Leviticus 22:24 Ye shall not offer unto the Lord that which is
bruised, or crushed, or broken, or cut; neither shall ye make
any offering thereof in your land. [/quote]so another nail in
that coffin, seems to me?
[quote]
It is interesting though that the word translated as crushed or
bruised in Isaiah 53 shows up several times in the book of Job.
Sins of ignorance were easily forgiven in the Old Testament era.
Some sins were considered so trivial, all they required was for
the person to realize he'd made a mistake. Then he was expected
not to do it again.[/quote]
gotta wonder how they got to a literal law of sin and death from
there!
[quote]
Notice that only the "clean" animals could be used as
sacrifices; and no one forced these animals into it. The
animals made a covenant with God about it. The clean animals
could act as sacrifices and the unclean animals acted in another
role "bearing" some of the uncleanness in man which he hadn't
repented of yet.
Genesis 9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant
which I make between me and you and every living creature that
is with you, for perpetual generations:
[/quote]
#Post#: 27933--------------------------------------------------
Re: Job's Sacrifices
By: Mark W Date: May 13, 2021, 12:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=meshak link=topic=1497.msg27930#msg27930
date=1620917219]
We just don't know how God judges us.
He judges our hearts which is so complicated.
[/quote]seems like “Yah judges us” OT, but *...has given all
judgement to the Son* NT?
#Post#: 27935--------------------------------------------------
Re: Job's Sacrifices
By: Mark W Date: May 13, 2021, 1:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=paralambano link=topic=1497.msg27931#msg27931
date=1620922548]
In general, I believe Isaiah 53 and other Isaiac chapters are
about Jesus, but I want to address the God pleased part by His
putting a hurt on Jesus, assuming it is about Jesus.
I believe that God was pleased that Jesus was willing to accede
to His will to suffer like humans by human consciousness even
though he was innocent of them so that we too can be innocent if
we are willing to accept his way.
The bruising (the cup) is Jesus' taking on of human
consciousness with its apparent pains, not some big man sitting
on a throne rubbing his hands with glee like some sadist
knocking about his innocent son. [/quote]hmm
might human consciousness also be in the state of heaven? *The
kingdom is within you*
I always contemplated the apparent pains as being mostly
self-inflicted...even, strangely, when there is another soul
involved? Lack of yielding, iow? dunno
[quote]
He took our error (sins) (human consciousness and therefore died
like a man) upon himself sacrificially this way. [/quote]imo
that is fine for a beginning, when we are still mired in *here a
little there a little* etc, but ultimately violates *No son of
man may die for another’s sins* seems to me; which also more or
less forces the following interpretation,
[quote]Thus, God's lookaway at Jesus' cry and death since God
doesn't "see" death and sin.[/quote]even though we ourselves
don’t see (spiritual) death and sin either, right? In a three
year old, I mean :)
Plus there is the conversation with Adam and Eve after the
eating of the fruit, which culminates in some line (that is
currently eluding me lol; i used to repeat it at this point in
this conversation) that suggests Yah was looking plenty, it’ll
come to me
Plus, isn’t even “wrestling with Yah” kind of a sin? But I’m
pretty sure there are other examples too
[quote]
Jesus suffered by it [/quote]imagine being Yah in the flesh,
with crucifixion immanent...and requesting that the cup pass
from you. Now this Jesus, Who never before spoke from His human
nature, is suddenly doing so? When He knows it will free mankind
from the law of sin and death?
i don’t know, ok, but i suggest that there is another reason for
“Eli, Eli, llama sabbacthani” and “let this cup pass from me”
that you won’t ever hear in congregation...basically the same
reason no one can Quote
“Jesus died for our sins”
[quote]for God's and his love of us to demonstrate later that
Divine Consciousness is All and all are/can be in that All.
The Divine will is for us to leave human consciousness for Him
(Divine Consciousness) just like Jesus did [/quote]at least
until the rubber hit the road, and Jesus becomes a hypocrite at
*let this cup pass from Me” right? Or we can go with “a moment
of weakness” if you prefer i guess, certainly
But i would contemplate “Why have You forsaken Me” (esp in light
of *I will never leave you nor forsake you* et al) because Jesus
was now involved in a farce! Albeit a necessary or expedient
one, maybe
[quote]
and God's will be done assuredly for all since God is no failure
I believe. Nothing added to or subtracted from the work of his
hands.
para . . . .
[/quote]*I said “you are Elohim”* so who’s hands :)
ok, I’m off to find the Adam Quote, which i guess you have
already heard me express before...
*Who told you that you were naked?*
or iow “I am not the one condemning you” seems to me,
although it is interesting that there is no actual line about
them meeting face to face, granted
#Post#: 27936--------------------------------------------------
Re: Job's Sacrifices
By: meshak Date: May 13, 2021, 4:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=bbyrd009 link=topic=1497.msg27933#msg27933
date=1620928065]
seems like “Yah judges us” OT, but *...has given all judgement
to the Son* NT?
[/quote]
It seems to me Jesus' judgments are for NT people.
YHWH will judge overall, IMO.
#Post#: 27937--------------------------------------------------
Re: Job's Sacrifices
By: Kerry Date: May 13, 2021, 8:54 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=bbyrd009 link=topic=1497.msg27932#msg27932
date=1620927945]
hmm, most (all) Christians that i have discussed this with seem
to resist the idea of Is53 being about Jesus at
all[/quote]Different people have different views; but I could
find you articles which say it must be about Jesus.
[quote]no offense meant to Jews, but they are still to this day
putting milk and meat in different shelves, literally, and
wouldn’t an actual Jew be more inclined to take the other side
here anyway?[/quote]
I went through a phrase of not eating milk and meat together.
It proved useful for me. I learned I can't have everything I
want sometimes. Sometimes I need to make choices and then
cheerfully with them.
Ha, and no offense to Gentiles, but Jews know who or "what" God
is -- while it seems that many Gentiles think they know but
don't. Look at what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the
well:
John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship:
for salvation is of the Jews.
It is written that when the nations of the world are ready to
hear the truth about "what" God is, they will go to the Jews.
Zechariah 8:23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it
shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all
languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of
him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have
heard that God is with you.
Note how that goes with Revelation where all the 144,000 are of
the tribes of Israel. Not one Gentile in the lot.
That verse from Zechariah proved useful to me when I didn't know
much. I wasn't sure if Jesus was Messiah or not; but I figured
if Gentiles could join themselves to Jews in the Messianic Age,
I could do that now. I found a good book by Maimonides to see
what the Jews had to say.
[quote]so another nail in that coffin, seems to me?gotta wonder
how they got to a literal law of sin and death from there!
[/quote]For one thing, Israel stumbled by adopting the false
idea that they could sin and then make everything okay by
sacrificing an animal.
Isaiah tried to tell them such sacrifices were abominations.
God hated them.
Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices
unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of
rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood
of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at
your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto
me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I
cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Note that God did not tell Israel to offer sacrifices for sin
when they came out of Egypt. The system of priests and
sacrifices started after most of Israel rejected the Voice of
God.
Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded
them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt,
concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
David also tried to tell Israel:
Psalm 51:7 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken
and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Too many Jews believed they could please God by cleaning the
slate with animal sacrifices while sinning against others and
not caring about others. The only solution was to abolish that
system, even if it meant the destruction of the Temple. They
didn't understand the purpose; their sacrifices had become
abominations to God. I think it relates to the book of Job
where Job makes all those sacrifices and then all his children
got killed.
Then along comes the Christians who pretty much fell into the
same mistaken way of thinking about sacrifices. People seem
always to be looking for ways to avoid correcting themselves
when their consciences inform them they need to repent -- so
that instead of wanting to kill animals, they avoid making the
same mistakes again and again.
#Post#: 27938--------------------------------------------------
Re: Job's Sacrifices
By: Kerry Date: May 13, 2021, 9:08 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=paralambano link=topic=1497.msg27931#msg27931
date=1620922548]
In general, I believe Isaiah 53 and other Isaiac chapters are
about Jesus, but I want to address the God pleased part by His
putting a hurt on Jesus, assuming it is about Jesus.
I believe that God was pleased that Jesus was willing to accede
to His will to suffer like humans by human consciousness even
though he was innocent of them so that we too can be innocent if
we are willing to accept his way.
The bruising (the cup) is Jesus' taking on of human
consciousness with its apparent pains, not some big man sitting
on a throne rubbing his hands with glee like some sadist
knocking about his innocent son.
He took our error (sins) (human consciousness and therefore died
like a man) upon himself sacrificially this way. Thus, God's
lookaway at Jesus' cry and death since God doesn't "see" death
and sin. Jesus suffered by it for God's and his love of us to
demonstrate later that Divine Consciousness is All and all
are/can be in that All.
The Divine will is for us to leave human consciousness for Him
(Divine Consciousness) just like Jesus did and God's will be
done assuredly for all since God is no failure I believe.
Nothing added to or subtracted from the work of his hands.
para . . . .
[/quote]I hope to get back to the forum later; but let me say I
agree that the Father did not force anything on Jesus. No
injustice was inflicted on Jesus so the guilty could be told
their sins were forgiven. We need to look at the idea of the
two becoming one, perhaps looking also at the Old Testament idea
of the "redeemer" as a relative stepping in to help when
someone ran into more trouble than he could handle by himself.
I think some things in the Old Testament can be about Israel in
general and about Jesus at times too. I think the idea of the
"suffering servant" applies to both. It can apply to anyone who
has received the proper image and likeness of God and who then
lives in such a way that he shares with others what he has
received.
#Post#: 27939--------------------------------------------------
Re: Job's Sacrifices
By: paralambano Date: May 14, 2021, 7:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Mark - ^
The kingdom is the infinite All consciousness. It can't be
infinite and be contained in anything. It has its unreal shadow,
human consciousness of good and evil which is a "veil" over it
by belief that there are many separate consciousnesses ("devil"
divides) when there's only actually One divine Consciousness.
It's like looking at one actual thing and perceiving another. I
mean, everything comes by consciousness. God and his kingdom
can't actually be smaller than my awareness. It's not like my
consciousness is the big Russian nesting doll and God and His
kingdom are smaller ones in it. The idea of it like a seed can
be planted in human consciousness to "grow"into Infinite
Consciousness, the only One. The "growth" is the process of the
realization of what already is.
Psalm 49. Here's what immediately precedes what you had
mentioned of it:
5 Why should I fear when evil days come,
when wicked deceivers surround me—
6
those who trust in their wealth
and boast of their great riches?
7
No one can redeem the life of another
or give to God a ransom for them—
8
the ransom for a life is costly,
no payment is ever enough—
9
so that they should live on forever
and not see decay.
I take it that there's no one innocent enough to do it by the
wicked deceivers all around. Was Jesus a wicked deceiver?
Scripture tells us otherwise. Rather, Jesus came to show the way
out of a consciousness of wicked deceivers who trust in material
things and die by that "trust" in their profitless flesh. They
can resurrect nothing.
Wrestling with Yahweh? Come, let us reason together said God,
no? How can this be a sin unless from an impure motive?
God sees that three-year-old exactly as He created them, a
spirit being. It's human consciousness which sees them as mortal
child.
Jesus speaking from his human nature for the first time. He
didn't know when the end of the age would come prior to the cup.
He said so himself. He hadn't known Lazarus had "died". The cup
was filled for him later.
The "why have you forsaken me" is no farce. It's cried from the
depth of human despair. Have we not at one time asked this?
Jesus' spirit then rises into Divine Consciousness. There's no
hypocrisy in asking that suffering escapes him. When he decides
to comply, he'll now suffer fully by human consciousness, his
sacrifice.
Divine Consciousness' "hands", Cause. We aren't self-created but
Effect. We're at One when Cause and effect happen simultaneously
like a light goes on when a switch is thrown.
para . . . .
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