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#Post#: 27881--------------------------------------------------
Job's Sacrifices
By: Kerry Date: May 8, 2021, 4:24 pm
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What was going on with Job's sacrifices? He sacrificed for his
sons, and they all got killed. It was as if Job's prayers acted
like curses. Then at the end of the book, he's told to sacrifice
for his friends, and that sacrifice is found acceptable. What
changed?
#Post#: 27882--------------------------------------------------
Re: Job's Sacrifices
By: meshak Date: May 8, 2021, 6:23 pm
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=1497.msg27881#msg27881
date=1620509076]
What was going on with Job's sacrifices? He sacrificed for his
sons, and they all got killed. It was as if Job's prayers acted
like curses. Then at the end of the book, he's told to sacrifice
for his friends, and that sacrifice is found acceptable. What
changed?
[/quote]
It is mind-boggling.
#Post#: 27883--------------------------------------------------
Re: Job's Sacrifices
By: meshak Date: May 8, 2021, 6:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=1497.msg27881#msg27881
date=1620509076]
What was going on with Job's sacrifices? He sacrificed for his
sons, and they all got killed. It was as if Job's prayers acted
like curses. Then at the end of the book, he's told to sacrifice
for his friends, and that sacrifice is found acceptable. What
changed?
[/quote]
It seems to me that God is seeking our wholehearted devotion.
#Post#: 27885--------------------------------------------------
Re: Job's Sacrifices
By: HOLLAND Date: May 8, 2021, 8:32 pm
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=1497.msg27881#msg27881
date=1620509076]
What was going on with Job's sacrifices? He sacrificed for his
sons, and they all got killed. It was as if Job's prayers acted
like curses. Then at the end of the book, he's told to sacrifice
for his friends, and that sacrifice is found acceptable. What
changed?
[/quote]
Did Job change, Kerry? Was a change in Job the main point? How
did he change?
To me the book is heavily existential and it envelops the reader
into interpreting the book according to the reader's primary
life concerns. Is this what the book is meant to do?
#Post#: 27886--------------------------------------------------
Re: Job's Sacrifices
By: Rita Date: May 9, 2021, 3:21 am
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Hi Kerry
The sacrifices are coming from two different places. Job
sacrificed ‘ in case ‘ his sons had sinned. He was playing safe,
but in all honesty we know from chapter one that the reason for
Jobs suffering was to prove his faith. It was about Him, it
really about his sons. Job , perhaps , considered that all he
had was based on the belief that if his did the right thing he
would be blessed. I believe that is very much how people looked
at things back then. That whole sense of security can influence
our faith. The real test of faith is when things don’t go our
way.
The sacrifice that was offered for his friends were based on
what The Lord knew, that they had sinned against him and needed
to repent.
In Job 8:4 it’s clear that his friends believed that the sons
had died because they had sinned against God.... once again the
culture was black and white about things, punished for doing
wrong, blessed for doing things right. I still hear that from
people today ......and look at the prosperity Christianity
attitudes.
I see the book as a journey through suffering and how we deal
with it all, how many question God when bad things happen, and
some turn away completely. Some offer very bad responses to
others through their own reasoning. I love the last few chapters
where the Lord conveys all he has done, how small are we in
reality. His friends had to earn as much as well on how they
chose to deal with things.
In the end Job humbled himself , he didn’t know that The Lord
would bless him, he did it because his eyes were opened to the
truth. So it was with the right motives. His friends had to be
brought low, I am sure they felt they were right in everything
they said.
Rita
#Post#: 27889--------------------------------------------------
Re: Job's Sacrifices
By: paralambano Date: May 9, 2021, 6:55 am
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Kerry - ^
In the first instance, Job sacrifices out of fear/negativity. In
the second, he prays with redemption in mind. What changed? His
attitude/mind about God. Far be it from God to do wickedness,
says Elihu.
para . . . .
#Post#: 27891--------------------------------------------------
Re: Job's Sacrifices
By: Kerry Date: May 9, 2021, 7:28 am
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[quote author=paralambano link=topic=1497.msg27889#msg27889
date=1620561326]
Kerry - ^
In the first instance, Job sacrifices out of fear. In the
second, he sacrifices with redemption in mind. What changed? His
attitude/mind sbout God.
para . . . .
[/quote]And his attitude about people too?
The book says Job was perfect, etc. It does not say he was
either wise or loving. It says he feared God, but we should
know that that doesn't mean he was wise -- the fear of the LORD
is the beginning of wisdom.
His family life strikes me as strange. He has seven sons who
visit each other. They take turns feasting at each others'
houses, and their three sisters attend too. We aren't told if
any of these children have spouses who also attend these feasts.
What's strange is that they don't visit Job and he doesn't
visit them. Job strikes me, in the beginning of the book, as
someone who's so concerned about his own righteousness, he
becomes someone who can make people uncomfortable to be around.
You say Job sacrificed out of fear. Yes, I agree; and his
fears were so imaginary. He doesn't know of anything his
children did to offend God; but he imagines maybe, just maybe,
they have sinned and cursed God in their hearts. Maybe they're
sinning and Job doesn't know about it. Maybe they have cursed
God but have also hidden that from him. Job is inventing sin
out of thin air, if you ask me.
His view of sacrifices is wrong too, if you ask me. He seems to
think God wants to see something die in order to extend
forgiveness; and he thinks that his children could be forgiven
without repenting if he killed animals to placate an angry God
who wanted something to die.
I rather like Job's friends, even with their bad ideas about
God. They came to visit Job to try to comfort him when they
heard about his troubles. They cared -- they had a degree of
love. Job's children seemed not to visit him even when times
were good, but here his friends were when times were bad.
But they had wrong ideas about God so they also had wrong ideas
about Job and were sure he'd sinned some big sin -- and this
made Job feel worse. I think their wrong ideas about God got
corrected when the LORD appeared -- so I see them as repenting
of their mistaken ideas. Surely they had to repent to be
forgiven; and we find that Job was told to give sacrifice. Job
knew what they had done wrong -- he wasn't inventing it out of
thin air, not imagining evil where none existed. I feel sure
too that Job knew they cared about him and when their words hurt
him, they had been trying to help. He could see they had good
intentions.
It also says something about familial situations. Odd that
Job's sacrifices for family were rejected but for people of
other tribes they were accepted. God doesn't play favorites.
We can pray for our families, but we can't expect God to play
favorites to please us. I think Job learned about love, moving
beyond the "fear of the LORD" which is the beginning of wisdom,
acquiring Love and Wisdom to go with his righteousness.
I think Job's motives changed: He was no longer trying to be
righteous to placate an angry God who might punish him for sins;
rather he wanted to do the right things because it was the
loving thing to do.
#Post#: 27892--------------------------------------------------
Re: Job's Sacrifices
By: Kerry Date: May 9, 2021, 7:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=meshak link=topic=1497.msg27883#msg27883
date=1620516321]
It seems to me that God is seeking our wholehearted devotion.
[/quote]And how does that get expressed? Can we give God
anything He doesn't have? The only thing we have to give Him is
our love. Can we say we love God if we are injuring His other
children? Can we sin against our neighbors and say we love God?
So did Job love his wife and children? I tend to think maybe he
didn't, not at first.
#Post#: 27893--------------------------------------------------
Re: Job's Sacrifices
By: Kerry Date: May 9, 2021, 7:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=HOLLAND link=topic=1497.msg27885#msg27885
date=1620523934]
Did Job change, Kerry? Was a change in Job the main point? How
did he change?
To me the book is heavily existential and it envelops the reader
into interpreting the book according to the reader's primary
life concerns. Is this what the book is meant to do?
[/quote]I would say the book can be interpreted according to
each reader's preferences; but the whole Bible can be said to be
a test where we find what we want to find.
What changed though? Why did Job's children die despite Job's
prayers and sacrifices in the beginning of the book -- God
didn't answer his prayers. But in the end, God tells Job to
offer a sacrifice, and that was then found acceptable.
#Post#: 27894--------------------------------------------------
Re: Job's Sacrifices
By: Kerry Date: May 9, 2021, 8:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Rita link=topic=1497.msg27886#msg27886
date=1620548473]
Hi Kerry
The sacrifices are coming from two different places. Job
sacrificed ‘ in case ‘ his sons had sinned. He was playing safe,
but in all honesty we know from chapter one that the reason for
Jobs suffering was to prove his faith. It was about Him, it
really about his sons. Job , perhaps , considered that all he
had was based on the belief that if his did the right thing he
would be blessed. I believe that is very much how people looked
at things back then. That whole sense of security can influence
our faith. The real test of faith is when things don’t go our
way.[/quote]
I believe that if we are weak in faith, God wants us to grow so
we don't fret and worry about things so much, so we are more
comfortable with life. Testing our faith isn't about proving
something to God about how good we are or how strong our faith
is.
Yes, I think Job had something similar to prosperity gospel in
his mind. Obedience to God is seen as a way to get what we
want.
[quote]The sacrifice that was offered for his friends were based
on what The Lord knew, that they had sinned against him and
needed to repent.
In Job 8:4 it’s clear that his friends believed that the sons
had died because they had sinned against God.... once again the
culture was black and white about things, punished for doing
wrong, blessed for doing things right. I still hear that from
people today ......and look at the prosperity Christianity
attitudes. [/quote]
Why did his sons die after God told Satan he was removing the
hedge? Would God do that to someone's children to teach a
parent a lesson?
[quote]I see the book as a journey through suffering and how we
deal with it all, how many question God when bad things happen,
and some turn away completely. Some offer very bad responses to
others through their own reasoning. I love the last few chapters
where the Lord conveys all he has done, how small are we in
reality. His friends had to earn as much as well on how they
chose to deal with things.
In the end Job humbled himself , he didn’t know that The Lord
would bless him, he did it because his eyes were opened to the
truth. So it was with the right motives. His friends had to be
brought low, I am sure they felt they were right in everything
they said.
Rita
[/quote]I agree completely with you that his friends said those
hurtful things because they felt they were right. I also think
his friends showed Job more love and consideration than his own
family -- so I'm glad things turned out right for them.
Is there an element of "Father, forgive them for they know what
they do"? Job's friends didn't know what they doing when they
said hurtful things to him; and then we see Job obviously
forgiving them and asking God to also.
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