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#Post#: 27076--------------------------------------------------
Learning and Reasoning
By: KerimF Date: January 7, 2021, 4:28 am
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The process of learning requires two sides; source and
destination.
The destination is simply the person who looks for knowledge.
But the source of knowledge could be:
[1] Another person(s).
[2] One’s brain by observing repeatable results of certain
experiments.
In the first case, the data transfer could be direct, as in face
to face meeting, or indirect via certain channels; mostly
writings, besides the new audio/visual ones.
In the second case, the new or updated knowledge depends on the
accuracy of tools used to get the observed results.
Learning an idea is achieved when the receiver accepts it only
while being based on:
[1] His own logical reasoning.
[2] Having a blind trust in the source, mainly in certain
scientific and social/political matters.
[3] Having a blind hope (having faith) in the source; not
necessarily about spiritual matters only.
When I personally learn (add a new idea, scientific or else, in
my set of knowledge), I rely, to approve it, on my logical
reasoning only which is based on various axioms, definitions and
logic (as in math, for example).
By the way, one of my axioms is:
“The Will/Power that let me exist as a human being gave me the
ability to understand or discover, if I want to, the logical
useful answer of ‘any’ important question I may need to know
really”.
One may say: “This axiom reflects your blind trust in the
source”.
But, an axiom or definition that can lead having new good ideas,
verified logically (in case of abstract ones) and/or
experimentally (in case of practical ones), becomes one of the
main stones on which the good knowledge of its field is built.
For instance, this axiom could be seen as a modern version of
what Jesus called ‘The first and great commandment on which hang
all the law and the prophets’.
But let us recall that the men in charge of any formal religious
system around the world, Christian or else, teach their
believers that this axiom is actually a blasphemy; otherwise
they can’t play before them the role of God’s
representatives/stewards on earth who have the keys to guide
them into their God's Realm/Kingdom.
#Post#: 27081--------------------------------------------------
Re: Learning and Reasoning
By: KerimF Date: January 8, 2021, 6:09 am
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I wonder how someone can love/trust really the Will/Power that
created him while he believes that his given life is much like a
silly PC game in which there are some doors locked with no
hidden keys that open them!
#Post#: 27084--------------------------------------------------
Re: Learning and Reasoning
By: paralambano Date: January 8, 2021, 8:24 am
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Kerim - ^
I don't think that most religious powers would deny your
God-given ability to understand and discover rational and useful
answers to needful questions by calling this blasphemy itself
necessarily since this is the way that many came to accept their
doctrines which were previously understood and accepted by their
predecessors in the first place.
The thing is, Jesus was claimed to speak blasphemy by Caiaphas,
so some who can't know the intentions of the heart don't speak
for God who does.
para . . . .
#Post#: 27090--------------------------------------------------
Re: Learning and Reasoning
By: KerimF Date: January 8, 2021, 2:54 pm
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[quote author=paralambano link=topic=1481.msg27084#msg27084
date=1610115873]
I don't think that most religious powers would deny your
God-given ability to understand and discover rational and useful
answers to needful questions by calling this blasphemy itself
necessarily since this is the way that many came to accept their
doctrines which were previously understood and accepted by their
predecessors in the first place.
[/quote]
Your remark is very important. It seems you, unlike I, knew a
religion, or more. whose believers don't need to have faith in
the founder(s) of their 'formal' religious system as a start.
They knew their God by reason only as they knew/discovered many
things said scientific ???
For instance, I was ignored or banned whenever I joined a
universal Christian forum and said that Jesus is my divine
perfect teacher who helped me discover myself and the real world
rather very deeply (after all, God only can reveal such
knowledge in order to save man from ignorance that every baby
has to be born with). And I understood their reactions because
Jesus revealed some important natural truths which had to be
ignored totally (and cleverly) by all formal Churches and
Denominations in the world (hence, by their forum's moderators
as well). Preaching these truths clearly and openly, as Jesus
does on the today's Gospel, will affect very badly on the
survival of their religious systems. Therefore, these natural
truths, taboos, could be known/read by a person directly from
the Gospel 'only'. Could you guess one of them? ;D
#Post#: 27092--------------------------------------------------
Re: Learning and Reasoning
By: paralambano Date: January 9, 2021, 8:52 am
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Kerim - ^
Paul says that there's no excuse for denying order understood in
the natural world by what underlies it. Divine Reason is order,
therefore Logos/God is order, harmony. This is one of the basics
of faith, the recognition and acceptance of divine order in
creation however one defines this order. Christian denominations
have this in their doctrines.
You say that you were banned from or ignored on forums because
what you have to say by divine revelation about natural truths
threatens the survival of their religious systems.
I can't think of anything greater concerning the "natural" in
regard to Jesus' teaching than his claim of denying its dominion
or preeminence by saying Spirit and his words are life. He says
not to to be concerned about what we will eat, drink, and clothe
ourselves with. I mean, aren't these all things that the natural
man concerns himself with daily if not hourly?
Christianity explains this by saying that God is the Source of
all these good things. Not to worry. Connect with God inwardly
and all these things will be added to believers.
I wouldn't ban or ignore you for this on a forum, nor would I
think that it threatens Christianity.
para . . . .
#Post#: 27095--------------------------------------------------
Re: Learning and Reasoning
By: KerimF Date: January 9, 2021, 12:06 pm
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[quote author=paralambano link=topic=1481.msg27092#msg27092
date=1610203952]
I wouldn't ban or ignore you for this on a forum, nor would I
think that it threatens Christianity.
[/quote]
Your last remark shows me that I couldn't be clear enough about
Jesus truths that threaten the survival of the formal
Churches... surely not Jesus teachings that will last forever
despite everything.
For example, let me ask you: What is the best way to pray?
By the way, even an atheist follows it, every time he faces a
real hard situation, though he doesn't call it praying :)
I guess you know what Jesus says about it, no?
But I wonder if you can deduce now why this way doesn't help in
the survival/continuity of a formal religious system, not just a
Christian one.
#Post#: 27096--------------------------------------------------
Re: Learning and Reasoning
By: paralambano Date: January 9, 2021, 2:07 pm
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Kerim - ^
I don't see how praying privately (one's closet by analogy)
threatens formal religion since, well, formal Christianity
allows for both public and private prayers.
para . . . .
#Post#: 27098--------------------------------------------------
Re: Learning and Reasoning
By: KerimF Date: January 9, 2021, 6:11 pm
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[quote author=paralambano link=topic=1481.msg27096#msg27096
date=1610222826]
I don't see how praying privately (one's closet by analogy)
threatens formal religion since, well, formal Christianity
allows for both public and private prayers.
[/quote]
Of course, the formal Churches, as any other religious system,
allow both ways, as you said.
But, in reality and at least about the ones I heard of (starting
from the Catholic Church since my parents were Catholic), not
attending deliberately the Sunday Mass is a sin (I suppose they
mean a sin against God) that needs forgiveness in one way or
another.
On the other hand, a neutral observer doesn't see a big
difference between the praying ceremonies (each sect has its own
rituals to celebrate them) and the ones of Pagans, Jews and
Muslims. The difference is just about the names and the words
(usually taken from 'their' holy books) that are used in their
prayers of worship. But, such ceremonies are very important for
Pagans, Jews and Muslims. They are as important as the member's
meetings of a well organized political group. Not attending them
deliberately would be a clear sign that the member in question
is no more interested in the group.
You asked how praying privately threatens formal religion. In my
turn, let me ask you: How could a Church get donations if all
believers follows Jesus advice:
[quote]And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the
hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues
and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.
when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for
they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
[/quote]
Yes, this is what I heard from every priest I knew. And they are
right. So I deduced that the end purpose for which God (The One
Will/Power of our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ, unified
since before Creation by the Divine Spirit of Love; the Holy
Spirit) planned already for the existence of such powerful rich
Christian Systems... is simply to print (on hard/electronic
books) Jesus teachings worldwide and from one generation to
another. As you know, ordinary independent people, like you and
I, cannot afford achieving this hard and costly job.
This is why I mentioned earlier that the natural truths which
doesn't suit the men of the material world could be heard of by
a spiritual person from reading the Gospel 'only'... as I did.
And this was the first one ;D
I think I shouldn't ask if you can guess another one :)
#Post#: 27101--------------------------------------------------
Re: Learning and Reasoning
By: paralambano Date: January 10, 2021, 8:37 am
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Kerim - ^
Jesus wasn't against public prayer. He tells the story of two
men who went up to the Temple to pray, one of whom made himself
"better" than the other to God saying I'm glad I'm not a sinner
like this other guy, and the other was afraid to lift his eyes
because he knew he was a sinner and asked God to forgive him for
them. Jesus said the latter went home justified in God's eyes.
Jesus didn't say that the latter was wrong for praying in
temple. The first guy was wrong for his wrong intention of
appearing holy by praying publicly when he wasn't. So pray with
others, Kerim, just watch how you do it. Jesus permits it.
Jesus himself prayed in synagogues as is the custom of Jews to
stand before God in their congregations.
Jesus was saying when you stand praying, don't be hypocrites
like those who do it for the praise of men for appearing to be
all holy when they're not.
As always with Jesus, it's the intent of the heart which matters
to God since that is what's judged.
Money can be delivered many ways. I knocked on a priest's door
and gave him some.
para . . . .
#Post#: 27107--------------------------------------------------
Re: Learning and Reasoning
By: KerimF Date: January 11, 2021, 10:06 am
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[quote author=paralambano link=topic=1481.msg27101#msg27101
date=1610289476]
Jesus wasn't against public prayer. He tells the story of two
men who went up to the Temple to pray, one of whom made himself
"better" than the other to God saying I'm glad I'm not a sinner
like this other guy, and the other was afraid to lift his eyes
because he knew he was a sinner and asked God to forgive him for
them. Jesus said the latter went home justified in God's eyes.
Jesus didn't say that the latter was wrong for praying in
temple. The first guy was wrong for his wrong intention of
appearing holy by praying publicly when he wasn't. So pray with
others, Kerim, just watch how you do it. Jesus permits it.
[/quote]
In this story, Jesus wasn’t against an outside prayer that
doesn’t follow a pre-determined schedule and rituals. Yes, there
is nothing wrong to pray privately even in a temple (in a
Church) as the latter guy did. Do you really think that such guy
needs to repeat what he did periodically (every week for
example) and at some specific places (called God’s Houses)? Also
let us remember that it is not unusual that someone may not have
a private place in which to pray better than a nearby empty or
crowded church.
[quote author=paralambano link=topic=1481.msg27101#msg27101
date=1610289476]
Jesus himself prayed in synagogues as is the custom of Jews to
stand before God in their congregations.
Jesus was saying when you stand praying, don't be hypocrites
like those who do it for the praise of men for appearing to be
all holy when they're not.
As always with Jesus, it's the intent of the heart which matters
to God since that is what's judged.
[/quote]
I am afraid that Jesus was preaching in synagogues not praying
(revealing truths that many of them are taboos now). But if one
insists that Jesus was praying in public, Jesus wasn’t acting
there the way Jews were supposed to do (by following certain
rituals approved by their Elders). This explains why
[quote]... the Pharisees went out, and held a council against
him, how they might destroy him.[/quote]
By the way, I wonder if you noticed already that believers of
any formal religion feel great while worshiping (submitting
totally to) their God (the God, they used hearing of); no matter
whom their God might be. They enjoy this feeling (though
temporarily) while they worship in private or with others. This
explains why, in any religion, a believer thinks that the God he
worships has to be the right one.
This is not a dilemma if one is serious in discovering the
natural rule behind this temporary great sensation that looks to
many as a real spiritual joy.
Anyway, I don’t feel the need to attend the periodic Sunday Mass
in which I meet people who have to follow certain rituals (in
which music, songs and dances may be included) that are approved
by the men in charge of their Christian sect. Although I have
nothing against any privileged person serving a rich powerful
formal system (religious or political, if not both as the
today’s Jewish and Islamic ones), I would be real naïve if I
trust him/her because he/she cannot (or is not allowed to) be
free and independent as I am :)
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