DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Love God Only
HTML https://lovegodonly.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Biblical Discussions
*****************************************************
#Post#: 14547--------------------------------------------------
Without understanding
By: George Date: April 11, 2017, 8:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation,
the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he
was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the
third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away,
and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last
error shall be worse than the first.
If the Romans understood this supposed claim made by Jesus why
does it seem that his own disciples did not? There is nowhere
that I am aware of in the gospels where any of the disciples
were waiting or expecting Jesus to reappear resurrected. In fact
just the opposite they are in dis belief when Mary returns and
tells them that he is alive. Thomas doubted even after being
told by his fellow companions. Are we to believe that Jesus
enemies understood his words better than his own disciples?
Then at the end of this verse we read "so the last error shall
be worse than the first"... what was the first error they are
referring to?
#Post#: 14558--------------------------------------------------
Re: Without understanding
By: Kerry Date: April 12, 2017, 10:04 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=1203.msg14547#msg14547
date=1491960123]
62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation,
the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he
was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the
third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away,
and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last
error shall be worse than the first.
If the Romans understood this supposed claim made by Jesus why
does it seem that his own disciples did not?
There is nowhere that I am aware of in the gospels where any of
the disciples were waiting or expecting Jesus to reappear
resurrected. In fact just the opposite they are in dis belief
when Mary returns and tells them that he is alive. Thomas
doubted even after being told by his fellow companions. Are we
to believe that Jesus enemies understood his words better than
his own disciples?[/quote]I think the disciples understood the
claim; but they didn't believe it any more than the chief
priests, Pharisees and Romans did.
[quote]Then at the end of this verse we read "so the last error
shall be worse than the first"... what was the first error they
are referring to?[/quote]My guess is that Jesus was the king of
the Jews. I think that because that's what they told Pilate
earlier when they portrayed Jesus as a person who might lead a
rebellion. If the body disappeared, the disciples could claim
he was resurrected; and they could pretend Jesus was hiding
somewhere directing a rebellion; or someone could pretend he was
Jesus and say, "I'm back from the dead. Follow me and rebel
against Rome." Saying you're the King of the Jews is one
thing; saying you're the resurrected King of the Jews would be a
bigger threat. That's how I read it.
#Post#: 14570--------------------------------------------------
Re: Without understanding
By: George Date: April 12, 2017, 3:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=1203.msg14558#msg14558
date=1492009440]
I think the disciples understood the claim; but they didn't
believe it any more than the chief priests, Pharisees and Romans
did.
[/quote]
While we are left to simply speculate here is my thought, if I
had dropped everything in life and left family and friends to
follow this man, who I witness give sight to the blind, heal the
leapers, make the cripple to walk, multiply bread and fish, and
even raise the dead, I think I would have no issue believing he
was not of this world, that he had supernatural ability, and
would very likely be capable of rising from the dead himself.
For them to not believe he would rise from the dead shows how
much they lacked trust, they basically believed then that he was
a liar. I'm not sure I could believe this, especially when one
takes into account that these men claim to be willing to die for
him. They were ready to fight the Roman soldiers for him,
knowing they didn't stand a chance. This just doesn't seem to
coincide with the rest of the story.
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=1203.msg14558#msg14558
date=1492009440]
My guess is that Jesus was the king of the Jews. I think that
because that's what they told Pilate earlier when they portrayed
Jesus as a person who might lead a rebellion. If the body
disappeared, the disciples could claim he was resurrected; and
they could pretend Jesus was hiding somewhere directing a
rebellion; or someone could pretend he was Jesus and say, "I'm
back from the dead. Follow me and rebel against Rome."
Saying you're the King of the Jews is one thing; saying you're
the resurrected King of the Jews would be a bigger threat.
That's how I read it.
[/quote]
Not sure that I follow, are you saying the first mistake was not
believing Jesus to be the king of the Jews? Or believing he was?
#Post#: 14571--------------------------------------------------
Re: Without understanding
By: Kerry Date: April 12, 2017, 6:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=1203.msg14570#msg14570
date=1492030741]
While we are left to simply speculate here is my thought, if I
had dropped everything in life and left family and friends to
follow this man, who I witness give sight to the blind, heal the
leapers, make the cripple to walk, multiply bread and fish, and
even raise the dead, I think I would have no issue believing he
was not of this world, that he had supernatural ability, and
would very likely be capable of rising from the dead himself.
For them to not believe he would rise from the dead shows how
much they lacked trust, they basically believed then that he was
a liar. I'm not sure I could believe this, especially when one
takes into account that these men claim to be willing to die for
him. They were ready to fight the Roman soldiers for him,
knowing they didn't stand a chance. This just doesn't seem to
coincide with the rest of the story.[/quote]
Jesus appears to have done a "test run" himself. The Jewish
belief was that up to 3 days after it looked as if you were
dead, your soul might still be called back and you could be
resurrected. Jesus apparently proved something by waiting over
three days when resurrecting Lazarus.
Tibetan Buddhists today have a similar belief. They say it's
not safe or wise to dispose of the body for a while after it
looks as if it's dead. Their rule generally is wait until it
starts to smell bad. That is a sign the soul has departed and
isn't going to reenter the body to animate it again.
As for resurrecting the dead? I've never done it; but I don't
think it would have to be that hard if the soul was around and
willing to return when called. "Called" might be the wrong
word. Maybe it should be "commanded" -- using a tone of
spiritual authority. Scientologists say they've done it -- and I
think maybe some of them have. The story goes that Hubbard
himself died in a dentist chair and came back to life.
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard
Hubbard realized that, while he was dead, he had received a
tremendous inspiration, a great Message which he must impart to
others. He sat at his typewriter for six days and nights and
nothing came out. Then, Excalibur emerged.
Don't forget too that the Jews believed their prophets had
raised the dead from time to time; but that didn't make them
the Messiah.
[quote]Not sure that I follow, are you saying the first mistake
was not believing Jesus to be the king of the Jews? Or believing
he was?[/quote]The Jews didn't believe it. They apparently told
Pilate Jesus called himself that to get Pilate riled up because
that's what Pilate asked Jesus about.
John 18:29 Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What
accusation bring ye against this man?
30 They answered and said unto him, If he were not a malefactor,
we would not have delivered him up unto thee.
31 Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him
according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is
not lawful for us to put any man to death:
32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake,
signifying what death he should die.
33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called
Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did
others tell it thee of me?
35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief
priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
Pilate didn't seem to care much either way. He didn't see Jesus
as a real threat but decided to cater to the Jews to shut them
up. But Pilate got his revenge by what he wrote on the placard
on the cross. What did he write really? The four Gospels have
four different sayings. I am confident John had it right.
First he was present and saw for himself. Secondly, if Pilate
wrote what John said he did, it would have annoyed the Jews.
John 19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross.
And the writing was Jesus Of Nazareth The King Of The Jews.
20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where
Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in
Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.
21 Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not,
The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.
22 Pilate answered, What I have written I have written.
Why the fuss? Because "The King of the Jews"would be Yeshua
HaNazarei V'Melech HaYehudim in Hebrew: Take the first letters
and you get YHVH.
*****************************************************