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#Post#: 14207--------------------------------------------------
Pope Francis Signals an Openness re: Married Priests in the
Catholic Church
DIR By: HOLLAND
Date: March 12, 2017, 9:45 pm
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Several days ago this appeared in the New York Times:
HTML https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/10/world/europe/pope-francis-married-priests.html?_r=0
Pope Francis this week signaled receptiveness to appeals from
bishops in the remote and overwhelmed corners of the Roman
Catholic Church to combat a deepening shortage of priests by
ordaining married men who are already committed to the church.
In an interview with a German newspaper, the pope made clear
that he was not advocating an end to celibacy for current
priests or those aspiring to join the clergy. But his seeming
openness about the prospect of ordaining married men in places
hardest hit by a dearth of priests was unusually explicit and
brought the issue to the forefront.
“We need to think about whether ‘viri probati’ could be a
possibility,” Francis, using the Latin phrase for such “tested”
men, said in an interview with the newspaper, Die Zeit. “If so,
we would need to determine what duties they could undertake, for
example, in remote communities.”
For years, the pope has noted that an element of married clergy
already exists in the church. Eastern Rite priests in union with
Rome have married for centuries. In 1980, John Paul II created a
provision by which some married Protestant ministers who
converted to Catholicism could maintain their ministry. And
historically, priests in the first centuries of the church were
free to marry.
My question to everybody is this: would it be possible for the
Pope to allow married priests in the Roman Catholic priesthood?
I've observed that Catholic traditionalists have hardened
towards Pope Francis in a kind of hate. Could he do it? Given
the dire shortage of Catholic priests, is he forced to do so?
What are your thoughts, everybody?
#Post#: 14210--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pope Francis Signals an Openness re: Married Priests in the
Catholic Church
DIR By: Kerry
Date: March 13, 2017, 6:36 am
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--- Quote from: HOLLAND link ---
> My question to everybody is this: would it be possible for the
Pope to allow married priests in the Roman Catholic priesthood?
I've observed that Catholic traditionalists have hardened
towards Pope Francis in a kind of hate. Could he do it? Given
the dire shortage of Catholic priests, is he forced to do so?
What are your thoughts, everybody?
--- End Quote ---
It's a matter of practice and not of dogma -- at least the way
the Catholic Church interprets the Bible. The way I interpret
it, priests should have to married to be eligible for promotion.
I base that on Jewish tradition and practices which are
supported by Paul.
First of all, there is that commandment to marry and have
children. While most Rabbis would probably tell you that some
men could remain single in order to devote more time to study,
they would also likely tell you (if from the Orthodox wing of
Judiasm) that a man cannot achieve spiritual perfection by
himself, nor can a woman by herself. The husband and wife need
each other in order to be "complete."
HTML http://www.mesora.org/RemainingUnmarried.htm
One can study and study of course and yet not learn; and the
traditional Jewish position is that a man learns better from his
studies by having a wife.
How does marriage help ones learning? While it is true that a
single person has certain responsibilities which are taken over
by the spouse on the whole marriage seems to leave less time for
learning, “if a millstone is on his neck, how will he be
involved in torah!”[ix]. It seems that we need to view this idea
not in terms of quantity of learning; rather we must view it
qualitatively. What causes one to forget learning? The Gemara[x]
says that learning all of Shas is only valuable if one has Yiras
Hashem. Rashi explains that the Yiras Hashem is necessary for
remembering. If one lacks Yiras Hashem then they will forget
their learning. The Rambam defines Yiras Hashem as[xi]
recognizing ones true nature as a small (almost) insignificant
part of a great system governed by unfathomable wisdom.
Our Gemara is based on this principle; someone who is married
has a proper view of himself as a part of the creation (as Rabbi
Tanchum explained). When a single person spends time in
household needs he is likely to be taken in by that framework,
his actions are completely self-serving, Living life in order to
enhance oneself as an individual is in direct conflict with the
system of Torah which trains one in viewing themselves as a part
of a system. This conflict will lead one to forget their Torah.
On the other hand someone who is involved in household needs as
part of a family will be living his life in line with the
lessons of the Torah and his actions will express his knowledge
as opposed to contradicting it. This is the main idea of a
spouse as a ‘helpmate, opposite’ the help is not just a
practical one, but rather the assistance in the practical also
creates the proper psychological and philosophical outlook for
the practical endeavors. Each spouse advises and corrects the
other ones weaknesses.
Marriage also provides a wall. The Maharsha explains that the
female is a wall for the male from the attacks of the instincts.
They provide for each other an outlet for the instincts in way
that is in line with God’s plan for the creation. This idea is
the idea of Kedushah and that Torah is not just theoretical but
enters all aspects of life.
In summary Torah and ‘a wall’ are the complete framework of
human perfection, the theoretical and the practical. Not only
does marriage help a person exist humanly, it is a springboard
for perfection of the soul.
From the Jewish Encyclopedia:
Deliberate renunciation of marriage. In the Old Testament there
is no direct reference to the subject. The prophet Jeremiah was
a celibate (Jer. xvi. 2). He seems to have regarded it as futile
to beget offspring doomed to death in the impending national
catastrophe (ib. iii. 4). The pessimistic author of
Ecclesiastes, although no admirer of woman (Eccl. vii. 26, 28),
counsels "enjoying life with a woman whom thou lovest" (ib. ix.
9).
In post-Biblical literature Jewish opinion stands out clear and
simple: marriage is a duty, and celibacy a sin. "The world was
created to produce life; He created it not a waste, He formed it
to be inhabited" (Isa. xlv. 18; Giṭ. iv. 5 = 'Eduy. i.
13). "Be fruitful, and multiply" (Gen. i. 28) is taken as a
command; marriage with a view to that end is a duty incumbent
upon every male adult (according to some the duty devolves also
upon woman; Yeb. vi. 8; Maimonides, "Yad," Ishut, xv.;
Shulḥan 'Aruk, Eben ha-'Ezer, 1, 13).
Abstention from marital intercourse on the part of the husband
exceeding a legitimate limit, which varies with the different
occupations, may be taken by the wife as ground for a divorce
(Ket. v. 6, 7). A single man who is past twenty may be compelled
by the court to marry (Shulḥan 'Aruk, l.c. i. 3). Isserles
adds that this custom is obsolete. Exception is made in favor of
a student, who may postpone marriage until a time when his
education is complete and beyond the possibility of being
endangered by the cares incident to procuring a livelihood (ib.;
the source is Ḳid. 29b). "He who is without a wife is
without joy, without blessing, without happiness, without
learning, without protection, without peace; indeed, he is no
man; for it is written (Gen. v. 2), 'Male and female created He
them, and called their name Man [A. V., "Adam"]'" (Yeb. 62b,
63a; Shulḥan 'Aruk, l.c. l. 1, note). "He who is not
married is, as it were, guilty of bloodshed and deserves death:
he causes the image of God to be diminished and the divine
presence to withdraw from Israel" (Yeb. 63b, 64a).
You can see too how a man's temperament is revealed through his
relationships with his wife and children. A beast of a man will
have an unhappy wife and children. So if you are going to put
someone in charge of a congregation, you can gather clues about
how well he does in dealing with other people by looking at his
marriage. Was he able to teach his children anything? If
not, odds are he won't teach the congregation much either. Yes,
I know you can teach children things which they might not
believe and go out and disobey wise and gentle parents; but
don't they discover from the experience that their parents had
been right? They are the better off for that rebellion in a
way, having discovered that their parents' motive was not to
domineer them but to help them avoid unnecessary disasters in
life.
I argue that clergy should teach the same way so that members of
the congregation disobey, they feel they've learned from it
and then they return to the fold with a new trust in the clergy.
You would not have a dictatorial, domineering kind of clergy
that we see sometimes.
Where does Paul show some agreement with this?
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of
one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to
hospitality, apt to teach. . . .
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their
children and their own houses well.
Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou
shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain
elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful
children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not
selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not
given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just,
holy, temperate;
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he
may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the
gainsayers.
So how does the Catholic Church interpret those two passages
from Paul?
Turning now to the historical development of the present law of
celibacy, we must necessarily begin with St. Paul's direction (1
Timothy 3:2, 12, and Titus 1:6) that a bishop or a deacon should
be "the husband of one wife". These passages seem fatal to any
contention that celibacy was made obligatory upon the clergy
from the beginning, but on the other hand, the Apostle's desire
that other men might be as himself (1 Corinthians 7:7-8),
already quoted) precludes the inference that he wished all
ministers of the Gospel to be married. The words beyond doubt
mean that the fitting candidate was a man, who, amongst other
qualities which St. Paul enunciates as likely to make his
authority respected, possessed also such stability of divorce,
by remaining faithful to one wife. The direction is therefore
restrictive, no injunctive; it excludes men who have married
more than once, but it does not impose marriage as a necessary
condition. This freedom of choice seems to have lasted during
the whole of what we may call, with Vacandard, the first period
of the Church's legislation, i.e. down to about the time of
Constantine and the Council of Nicaea.
They say "beyond doubt" as if that establishes the words that
follow as truth; but it is not so. The Greek word which they
translates as "should" here and which the KJV translates as
"must" is dei -- translated in the KJV most of the time as
"must" 58 times, "ought" 31 times, "must needs" 5 times,
"should" 4 times, with other scattered renderings. They put
too much stock in their interpretation of 1 Corinthians 7 in my
opinion.
1 Corinthians 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every
man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
Have we seen fornication in the Catholic clergy? Yes, for
centuries!
3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and
likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and
likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but
the wife.
5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a
time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and
come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your
incontinency.
See how he concurs with the quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia?
Even if the husband isn't interested in sex, he should learn how
to give pleasure to his wife.
6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man
hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another
after that.
And what was Paul's gift? Was it settling down as the Bishop of
a city, or was it holding a position as priest in a particular
church? No, of course not. He wandered about from one end of
the Roman Empire to the other. That was easier since he wasn't
married. Being unmarried does have advantages, certainly. One
can devote all his time to the church. If that works for
someone, very good -- and we may even hope like Paul that there
were more people capable of doing it. But we should not fall
into wishful thinking and should not make unreasonable demands
on the clergy, demands which so often set them up for failure.
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for
them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better
to marry than to burn.
Yet priests are forbidden to marry! That brings this passage
up:
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the
latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to
seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared
with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats,
which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them
which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused,
if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
I think it high time they revise things. Well, that's my
opinion.
#Post#: 14214--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pope Francis Signals an Openness re: Married Priests in the
Catholic Church
DIR By: HOLLAND
Date: March 13, 2017, 8:39 am
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^^^I agree, Kerry, with what you've posted. I understand that
the average age of members of the Catholic priesthood is in the
middle and upper sixties; and, that they have not replenished
their numbers. They have to do something about increasing their
priesthood numbers if they're going to survive as an
institution.
What needs to be done seems to be cut and dried, but when one
looks at the traditionalists that you see on Youtube, you
quickly realize that though priestly celibacy is a matter of
discipline rather than that of dogma, it doesn't matter to them.
They want a Catholicism in a form as it appeared in the 1950s;
they have rejected everything new since the start of Vatican II.
These traditionalists seem to have the power to obstruct given
the decline in numbers of the general Catholic population which
magnifies traditionalist strength.
Pope Francis can effect the change if he wants to do this, but I
wonder if he will pay a bad sociological price for it if the
traditionalists move over to even more emphatic revolt and
subversion against him.
#Post#: 14219--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pope Francis Signals an Openness re: Married Priests in the
Catholic Church
DIR By: paralambano
Date: March 13, 2017, 11:22 am
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Holland -
The Pope has said that optional celibacy isn't the answer,
prayer is, so I don't see things changing by fiat. In the
meantime, he's not painted into a corner without recourse by
anyone if he believes the eastern catholic rite and eastern
orthodoxy are Christian. For the meantime, the RCC
institutionally might have to accept fewer priests if their
prayers are inefficacious.
para . . . .
#Post#: 14248--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pope Francis Signals an Openness re: Married Priests in the
Catholic Church
DIR By: Kerry
Date: March 14, 2017, 9:09 pm
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--- Quote from: HOLLAND link ---
>
> ^^^I agree, Kerry, with what you've posted. I understand that
the average age of members of the Catholic priesthood is in the
middle and upper sixties; and, that they have not replenished
their numbers. They have to do something about increasing their
priesthood numbers if they're going to survive as an
institution.
>
> What needs to be done seems to be cut and dried, but when one
looks at the traditionalists that you see on Youtube, you
quickly realize that though priestly celibacy is a matter of
discipline rather than that of dogma, it doesn't matter to them.
They want a Catholicism in a form as it appeared in the 1950s;
they have rejected everything new since the start of Vatican II.
These traditionalists seem to have the power to obstruct given
the decline in numbers of the general Catholic population which
magnifies traditionalist strength.
>
> Pope Francis can effect the change if he wants to do this, but
I wonder if he will pay a bad sociological price for it if the
traditionalists move over to even more emphatic revolt and
subversion against him.
>
--- End Quote ---
Time will tell -- but I wonder if the current scandals rocking
the Italian church will influence policy?
Christian Post
HTML http://www.christianpost.com/news/gay-sex-orgies-prostitution-shock-vatican-pope-francis-hears-priests-confessions-177254/
#Post#: 14265--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pope Francis Signals an Openness re: Married Priests in the
Catholic Church
DIR By: HOLLAND
Date: March 16, 2017, 7:12 pm
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^^^I don't know, Kerry. It is curious but I think that Italian
scandals concerning Catholics has to affect the Vatican as it
does. Italy remains a strong force of influence in Catholicism
despite the decline of Italians controlling that church.
#Post#: 14266--------------------------------------------------
Re: Pope Francis Signals an Openness re: Married Priests in the
Catholic Church
DIR By: HOLLAND
Date: March 16, 2017, 7:16 pm
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--- Quote from: paralambano link ---
>
> Holland -
>
> The Pope has said that optional celibacy isn't the answer,
prayer is, so I don't see things changing by fiat. In the
meantime, he's not painted into a corner without recourse by
anyone if he believes the eastern catholic rite and eastern
orthodoxy are Christian. For the meantime, the RCC
institutionally might have to accept fewer priests if their
prayers are inefficacious.
>
>
> para . . . .
>
>
>
--- End Quote ---
It could be so, para, but the Catholic traditionalists are very
hard-line traditional. They are not interested in prayer about
this issue, what the Eastern Orthodox have done. They are not
even interested that there are now too few priests for the
denomination. It seems if Pope Francis presses this issue, he
could be facing a war in his own church.
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