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#Post#: 969--------------------------------------------------
Does God Have Free Will?
By: Kerry Date: October 19, 2012, 6:00 pm
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People sometimes talk about the "Will of God," and " I'm not
sure what it is meant.
We read that God cannot tell a lie. Why not?
#Post#: 981--------------------------------------------------
Re: Does God Have Free Will?
By: Amadeus Date: October 19, 2012, 9:28 pm
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[quote]People sometimes talk about the "Will of God," and " I'm
not sure what it is meant.
We read that God cannot tell a lie. Why not? [/quote]
[font=courier]I believe that the "Will of God" is set in
concrete as far as we are concerned. To get into it in detail is
nearly impossible, because we are apparently finite creatures
unable to really grasp infinity. God is apparently the latter.
I think of what God spoke and what we read in the Bible or in
God's creation as we are led by His Spirit as a "one time
occurence" (I don't like to use that expression, but we have to
communicate).
God spoke everything that we call His Word. He never had to
repeat anything because of what this verse tells us:
"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall
not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I
please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."
Isaiah 55:11
All of the blessings and all of the curses expressed to mankind
are set to act or react in accord with how we obey or disobey
what we receive. God does not have to think about what we did
and decide what His reaction will be. His reaction is already
spoken, but it is infinitely, (or nearly so), more complex or
simpler than what we call a spoken word among men.
Does God make choices? No, the choices for Him, if they can be
called that, are set into place by what He has spoken from the
beginning.
God's blessings happen in accord with our actions or inactions.
His curses likewise. So then what is mercy and when is it given
in spite of a person earning the wages of sin [death]? Jesus
when asked how often we should forgive an offending brother was
given the suggestion of seven times. He responded rather we
should should forgive seven times seventy times. That was
talking about one man to another. When we think of God, do we
not think of infinite mercy.
Yes, God's mercy is infinite as long as our eyes are on the
correct goal even while we are stumbling and even sinning.
Compare Saul with David. Both sinned, but Saul and rejected by
God, but David was not. The difference was in the attitude of
David. In what God already spoke (whether found in written
scripture or not) there something that knew this difference in
attitude and would not allow David to die even though a literal
interpretation of written laws might seem to require it.
All that God is, is not so completely and absolutely described
in any single book, not even in the Bible. Oh all that we need
is there, but the understanding of it is another thing, isn't
it?
God's reactions or lack of reactions are set according to what
He is and what He is not. He doesn't change so there is no free
will. If we could really always know the mind of God, we would
always know His will, which does not really change for anything.
With regard to you and me, what changes is you and me. We
change our direction or allowed it to be changed and God's
reaction is already determined.
Does that make God a dull pre-set thing? I do not believe so.
What I believe is that what God really is, is unknowable by us,
unless we can approach Him. That is what He wants us to do.
(Even the use of the word "want" is somehow unfitting, but again
we need to communicate in the only way that we can. The
following verse I believe, gives us an inkling which is
clarified by other verses of scripture as we are given
understanding of them.
"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18
The "vision" is the thing. What we seek to view clearly is the
face of God, but what is that? It is certainly not your natural
face nor what my natural face is...[/font]
#Post#: 987--------------------------------------------------
Re: Does God Have Free Will?
By: Runner Date: October 19, 2012, 10:53 pm
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How oft did they provoke Him in the wilderness, and grieve Him
in the desert! 41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and
limited the Holy One of Israel.
We know that we can limit Him...and, I believe He limits Himself
...for our good.
I like what Amadeus said..
[quote]
Does God make choices? No, the choices for Him, if they can be
called that, are set into place by what He has spoken from the
beginning. [/quote]
He limits Himself to His own Word! We can trust His character.
Psa 138. 2 I will worship toward Thy holy temple, and praise Thy
name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast
magnified Thy Word above all thy name.
To answer Kerry's question in OP (We read that God cannot tell
a lie. Why not?)
I believe that is why not. How could He say , even demand that
we Trust Him if His word was not a solid foundation for us.
I often say to my grandchildren..."when you can't see His face (
or hand)...trust His heart."
Yes I believe His will is free, but as said, being outside of
time, He cannot make choices now, or that would put Him into
'time.'
[quote]Quote Amadeus...
"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18
The "vision" is the thing. What we seek to view clearly is the
face of God, but what is that? It is certainly not your natural
face nor what my natural face is...[/quote]
AMEN! We must have vision or we die. I think Moses 'saw', he
endured seeing Him who is invisible. His vision impassioned him.
#Post#: 988--------------------------------------------------
Re: Does God Have Free Will?
By: Kerry Date: October 19, 2012, 11:36 pm
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[quote author=Amadeus link=topic=118.msg981#msg981
date=1350700124]Does God make choices? No, the choices for Him,
if they can be called that, are set into place by what He has
spoken from the beginning.[/quote]
I think you can go back before God spoke. We should think that
God knew He had things right in His Mind before He spoke, no?
[quote]All of the blessings and all of the curses expressed to
mankind are set to act or react in accord with how we obey or
disobey what we receive. God does not have to think about what
we did and decide what His reaction will be. His reaction is
already spoken, but it is infinitely, (or nearly so), more
complex or simpler than what we call a spoken word among
men.[/quote]I agree; and so in the book of Jonah, when we read
that God repented, it was because men had repented. We should
not think from that, however, that God was vacillating or being
inconsistent. Human language is a little hard to use to put
some things into words; but we should never interpret a passage
in the Bible to mean God is inconsistent just because a term
used might imply inconsistency when used to describe the actions
of men.
#Post#: 989--------------------------------------------------
Re: Does God Have Free Will?
By: Kerry Date: October 19, 2012, 11:38 pm
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[quote author=Runner link=topic=118.msg987#msg987
date=1350705196]
He limits Himself to His own Word! We can trust His
character.[/quote]
Can we say perhaps His Word show us how His Perfect Love limits
what He can do?
I agree that believing in a God we can trust is the only kind of
being worth believing in. A "Supreme Being" who was whimsical
could not be trusted. If God wants us to believe and trust in
Him, He would be consistent and not whimsical.
#Post#: 992--------------------------------------------------
Re: Does God Have Free Will?
By: bənê hāʼĕlōhîm
Date: October 20, 2012, 1:14 am
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I was stunned to see this topic when I got up here tonight... I
have been one to say numerous times that God cannot lie...
Last night listening to a talk radio show there was a guy who
was saying according to the bible God lies numerous times... The
first instance he claim we see God lie in the bible is in
Genesis
[size=12pt]Genesis 2:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt
not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou
shalt surely die.
Now this is not my belief or conviction I am speaking from this
guys perspective...
We all know the story Eve is beguiled by the serpent to eat the
fruit, but did she die in the day that she ate it??? No we know
this because the story goes on to say that she gave some to Adam
and he also ate... Did he die in the day that he ate it??? No
the story continues and they realize that they are naked and
cover themselves with leaves... Then God comes to Eden and call
out for Adam... After Adam admits the women gave him the fruit
and he did eat, and Eve says it was the serpent he beguiled me
and I did eat, That then God cursed them and made them that they
should die...
So what caused them to die??? Was it the eating of the tree, or
the curse God put on them for eating of the tree???
Then the question arises, If God would have told Adam of every
tree of the garden you can eat except for the tree of knowledge
of good and evil... For in the day that thy eat there of I will
surly kill you... Would Adam and Eve still been able to be
tricked by the serpent???
Could it be said that God lied or mislead Adam???
[/size]
#Post#: 994--------------------------------------------------
Re: Does God Have Free Will?
By: Kerry Date: October 20, 2012, 1:39 am
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That then brings up the question if the serpent lied? Not
entirely. . . .
Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not
surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your
eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and
evil.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they
were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made
themselves aprons.
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of
us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand,
and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
#Post#: 995--------------------------------------------------
Re: Does God Have Free Will?
By: Rita Date: October 20, 2012, 1:53 am
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' Death ' can be on many levels and be interpreted in many ways-
did their lives change after they disobeyed, clearly it did.
Spiritually they no longer had the same freedom, their innocence
definitely died as they became ashamed. ' Death ' seperates and
this clearly happened as they were banished from the Garden, but
in verse 24 we read that ... ' He drove out the man , and at the
east of the garden of Eden he p[laced the cherubim and a flaming
sword that turned every way to guard the the way to the tree of
life '
Surely if they had no access to the tree that would provide them
with ' life ' then from that moment they would start to die.
Also ' ' in that day ' could well mean ' within that time frame
, within that period of time ' meant something else and it is
our interpretation that is wrong -
Also scripture has been put together in such a way that
sometimes you get a summery, hence chapter 2: verses 1- 25 -
then you get the unfolding of the story - chapter 3 onwards - it
reveals how ' death ' became a part of life - the consequences
of what happened.
Rita
#Post#: 998--------------------------------------------------
Re: Does God Have Free Will?
By: bənê hāʼĕlōhîm
Date: October 20, 2012, 2:27 am
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=118.msg994#msg994
date=1350715166]
That then brings up the question if the serpent lied? Not
entirely. . . .
Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not
surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your
eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and
evil.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they
were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made
themselves aprons.
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of
us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand,
and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
[/quote]
I don't see were the serpent lied at all??? This word "Die" must
not have anything to do with existence and non existence??? We
are told that this physical body is not our true self, rather it
is a vessel for the soul, and when this physical body perishes
then the soul the essence of ones self will continue on in the
afterlife... So where is it that one surly dies??? One might say
in the second death... Does that mean Adam and Eve will not make
it into the Kingdom??? If they will surely die as far as
existence then they must be awaiting the second and final
death??? But then how could this be if the bible says it is not
our Fathers will that one of these little ones shall perish???
#Post#: 999--------------------------------------------------
Re: Does God Have Free Will?
By: Kerry Date: October 20, 2012, 6:02 am
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[quote author=George M. C. Jr. link=topic=118.msg998#msg998
date=1350718048]I don't see were the serpent lied at all???
[/quote]
He told Eve she would not surely die. It is also a question to
be answered if Eve became as the gods since the text reads
h'adam -- "the man" as in the original male-and-female Adam
Kadmon. Note that it was Eve who wished to become like the
gods; but it is said that Adam did. Did she? It is not
entirely clear.
the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now,
lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life,
and eat, and live for ever:
Their errors were not the same. How could Adam obey the
commandment to be fruitful and multiply with Eve if he
permitted her to fall alone and did not voluntarily choose to
fall with her? Should he have chosen to stay in Eden with God
while she was thrust out? I don't see an ideal solution for
him. He chose to love Eve, I think, even if that meant laying
down his life for her. Is this not one way we could say he
became like the gods?
[quote]This word "Die" must not have anything to do with
existence and non existence??? [/quote]
What does it mean to you? It means go out of existence to me.
Since there are many parts to man, which part was being
threatened with death? I don't believe it was the physical body
since I don't believe Adam and Eve had physical bodies until
after the fall -- when God put them in skin.
[quote]We are told that this physical body is not our true self,
rather it is a vessel for the soul, and when this physical body
perishes then the soul the essence of ones self will continue on
in the afterlife... So where is it that one surly dies??? One
might say in the second death... Does that mean Adam and Eve
will not make it into the Kingdom??? [/quote]
God forbid. As part of what would later be called Israel, they
must be saved since it is written that all Israel will be saved.
Are not all the souls in the Lamb's Book of Life accounted for
in the end? Were their names not written in the Book of Life
from the foundation of the earth?
[quote]If they will surely die as far as existence then they
must be awaiting the second and final death??? [/quote]
I say part of them died on the spot almost instantly, and part
died later -- within a thousand years for we are told a thousand
years is a day.
Their original bodies were bodies of Light. Light left the world
through a woman, and the Jews have the women light the Sabbath
candles since they say Light must enter the world again through
woman.
When they fell, the Light went out of their bodies. To "hold
them together," God put them in bodies of skin. Soul, mind and
heart -- these three have a way of separating if not in
agreement with each other -- and having a physical body for them
to be attached to is a convenient of getting the three together
so they can work out the "warring in the members" as Paul put
it.
[quote]But then how could this be if the bible says it is not
our Fathers will that one of these little ones shall
perish???[/quote]
We come back to the same problem facing us with the cursed fig
tree. Dust you are, and to dust you will return. Or as Isaiah
put it, the defective clay vessel needs to be reshaped.
I believe it was God's Will, when making h'adam, to make the
best thing possible: A being worth His Love. The more that
being could become like God, the better. It would have been a
failure then had God permitted Adam and Eve to eat of the Tree
of Life and make their imperfections immortal. That would have
been God giving up on Man, accepting second best. What was
imperfect could be consigned back to the dust, and what was
worthy preserved.
It is said that the idea of forgiveness existed in the Mind of
God before He created anything. If things went wrong, what
then? Should mistakes be permanent? I don't think God would
have bothered creating anything if He had to accept a universe
where mistakes of His creatures were permanent. I believe it is
for this reason the Jews say that the ram Abraham saw in the
bush existed before Eden.
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