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#Post#: 12599--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do people believe what Jesus said about Moses?
By: paralambano Date: July 21, 2016, 8:57 am
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Kerry (continuing) . . . .
[quote]I tend to react with some energy when I think someone may
be saying something negative about a saint when it's not that
clear to me.
Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's
elect? It is God that justifieth.
If we are all guilty, perhaps the first step to correcting that
is not laying a charge against others when we don't know?
Perhaps the first step is admitting it when we don't know. Woe
to us if we are guessing and get it wrong. We may not be
bearing "false witness" in a court of law; but we could be close
to it if we say say negative things about people when there's
nothing negative there.
Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;
that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put
bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
If we are wrong about Moses' carnal nature and falsely accuse
him, what hope do we have of having our own forgiven? That is
my concern here. [/quote]
Then you also ought to be concerned about St. Paul and his
writings. Moses, like Paul, was a human being and prone to
errors. We can call them errors of ignorance but they're still
errors/mistakes. Some of them hurt others as in the case of
Paul. Moses was given God-consciousness and immediately told
that God-Consciousness would be with Him: And Moses said unto
God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should
bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt? And he said,
Certainly I will be with thee . . . .
So choose, Moses. You have a choice like Adam and Eve did. Moses
does better eventually but He's clearly told, This Power will
certainly be with you. Love my Children like I love you. You
were one of them there and you still are. Jesus received the
Holy Spirit and is immediately compelled by Love into the
wilderness to have His love tested. Moses not so much. Harder
work in progress.
I don't know what you mean by us getting forgiveness if we're
wrong about Moses. I'm not trying to judge him. I'm just trying
to see the humanity in the man since I haven't known him in the
dream. You know, there's the bearded, weathered, old prophet
depicted in the movies and paintings like the old guy God in the
Sistine and what I get from that is the stern, father-figure
type. My dad wasn't like that at all. I understand that Moses
has attained. I don't place myself above him or even as an equal
in terms of service.
[quote]I tell you it was a demon -- just as it was Satan who
provoked David to number Israel. One text says Satan did it and
the other says the wrath of God did it. Satan is fractured off
from the Unity of God -- but still retaining something godlike,
enough so that it can be referred to as God.
But you may have an irresolute God then who does nothing when
killing one guilty person might benefit hundreds, thousands or
even millions of people. [/quote]
You have said that it was a demon but you haven't explained the
spiritual principle there. I think you said and I could be
completely wrong about it that a part of God breaks off as Satan
or something like that. This is so contrary to what I believe
God is since satan for me is wrongful thinking which leads to
belief in illusions. Satan has nothing to do with God since a
false belief is an illusion, an error. It happened to Job this
way. Job is perfect in all ways but his thinking since he places
fear alongside his God when he worships. Fear that something bad
will happen to his children. As for Moses, the satan there is
his fear that something bad will happen to his firstborn since
he understands that firstborns die (as in Egypt). I have
explained it by Zipporah. In Moses' "reservations" is a seeming
lack of willingness to help the COI. God keeps saying it's his
firstborn - Israel. Save my people, Israel, Moses. I will be
with you. Here, I show you what I can do to help you. My
firsborn are dying in Israel right now and they continue to
suffer. This is what Moses knows of firstborns - sometimes they
die under cruel circumstances. Perhaps, this can happen to mine.
This is a human trait/carnal thinking. It's Zipporah who
reverses this.
It's not God who does nothing. Jesus says God is working.
There's always someone willing because Love's call is
irresistible/omnipowerful to someone.
[quote]Some draw the distinction involving the permissive Will
of God. Satan is free to work by the permissive Will of God if
we are in a state of rebellion. God permits this since the
buffeting of Satan can serve a useful purpose of getting our
attention and getting us back in line.
[/quote]
I know that this is out of order since the order of posts is
confusing me but I'll try to keep it in context. I would put it
like this - We are buffeted by our errors (satan) until we tire
of them and want to move on. This is the opponent, the
hypothetical falsity/liar (ideas) which we buy into in our
thinking. I think in terms of spiritual laws not kings who sit
on thrones sending minions out to do work for them. It's too
anthropomorphic/material to think of kings and servants this way
for me. This is why I say Love does no harm. God doesn't punish.
We're at the mercy of our sins and our sins do not show mercy
since they have overarching death over them. God is the
antidote, not part of the problem. The problem lies in and by
the dream, not reality. God corrects mistakes by Truth and satan
(the error) vanishes. Where is satan at the end of Job's story?
Poof. Job will not make that mistake again.
[quote]Ah, but it wasn't her firstborn. The first male child
had been circumcised. It was the second son who wasn't.
There may be a connection however. If Israel is seen as the
firstborn of God and Egypt another potential son, the need to
circumcise the Gentile son (by this I mean spiritual
circumcision more than physical) is demonstrated. We know,
don't we, that some Egyptians left Egypt with Israel. I reckon
they were those of the spiritual circumcision but it could be
physical as well since circumcision was known and practiced
among the Egyptians. [/quote]
I don't agree with the Midrash on this. The emphasis is on the
firstborn and so is the context. Gershom is Zipporah's
firstborn. The key phrase is " But you refused to let him go as
in: The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that
you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the
power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let
the people go. Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD
says: Israel is my firstborn son, and I told you [Moses], "Let
my son go, so he may worship me." But you [Moses] refused to let
him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.' This can be read as
a double-warning since what follows is the threat to Moses'
firstborn. It's not the father who hasn't circumcised the
firstborn who is karet but the son. Moses has delayed Israel's
freedom. Again, this is a sowing and reaping happening to Moses.
After Zipporah circumcises Gershom, Moses understands that his
indifference toward God's firstborn in Egypt leading to their
continuing deaths was also projected onto his own firstborn son.
Yes, children die. Even my own.
[quote]Compare Moses' reluctance to Paul's attitude. I do not
see much sin if any in Paul before his conversion. I see him
as missing a critical piece of information. He was acting with
great vigor doing what he thought was right. I can't
criticize him much for that. When God was ready for him, He got
him. Paul got the missing piece of information, and it changed
everything. When Jesus reproved Paul, he was compassionate
about it although we could theorize that being made blind was a
sign of anger -- "it is hard for thee" Jesus said to him.
[/quote]
Moses was also missing something that Zipporah taught him. He
imagined death for his firstborn since he understood that
firstborn can suffer and die. He saw death by it where Zipporah
saw life and did something about it by the blood/life of
foreskin, putting it at Gershom's feet. The lesson for Moses is
not to be under the rule of indifference since that rule will
extend itself to one's own. Another's love is as important as
yours. Love and give life to others and so your own will live.
Be under the rule of love, not carnal thinking. One's lack of
knowledge can result in harm to others. Moses was given
God-consciousness as was Paul. Paul becomes a changed man as a
result. So too Moses. They can't go back because to do so would
be to reject 2 and 2 makes 4 and reenter the false world of
errors (good and bad).
Kerry, I think I'll leave off here concerning anything else you
wrote (and I have read it all) since I don't have too much of a
problem with it.
para . . . .
#Post#: 12600--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do people believe what Jesus said about Moses?
By: Kerry Date: July 21, 2016, 11:40 am
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A fast note about the son being a firstborn or not. The passage
says explicitly that they had "sons".
Exodus 4:20 And Moses took his wife and his sons, and set them
upon an ass, and he returned to the land of Egypt: and Moses
took the rod of God in his hand.
Another different passage says there were two.
Exodus 18:2 Then Jethro, Moses' father in law, took Zipporah,
Moses' wife, after he had sent her back,
3 And her two sons; of which the name of the one was Gershom;
for he said, I have been an alien in a strange land:
4 And the name of the other was Eliezer; for the God of my
father, said he, was mine help, and delivered me from the sword
of Pharaoh:
5 And Jethro, Moses' father in law, came with his sons and his
wife unto Moses into the wilderness, where he encamped at the
mount of God:
6 And he said unto Moses, I thy father in law Jethro am come
unto thee, and thy wife, and her two sons with her.
So they had two sons at the time. If we figure the firstborn
is named first, Gershom would have been the firstborn who had
been circumcised with Eliezer being the second son. Elsewhere
Gershom is also mentioned first:
1 Chronicles 23:14 Now concerning Moses the man of God, his sons
were named of the tribe of Levi.
15 The sons of Moses were, Gershom, and Eliezer.
I was not sure about this earlier when I wrote this; but I feel
quite sure now:
[quote] I think this was their second son (Eliezer) and that
their first son (Gershom) had already been circumcised.
Zipporah's father and family joined Israel even later. [/quote]
One rabbinical story (one which I reject incidentally as sheer
speculation) says that Moses and Zipporah had made a deal that
the first son would be circumcised and the next one would not
be. I find that speculation designed to make Zipporah somehow
the guilty party and to let Moses off the hook a little. I
believe Jethro was a true man of God and brought his daughters
up right, so it's very hard for me to think Zipporah was so
against circumcision. I didn't make a note of which rabbi said
that; but if you want to wade into the Talmud and the like,
seeing such details and seeing who says what can help clear up
who the reliable rabbis are and who the unreliable ones are. I
should have noted that. Although I disagreed with the story, it
did make me remember that they had two sons already. I missed
that when reading the Bible.
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