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#Post#: 12575--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do people believe what Jesus said about Moses?
By: paralambano Date: July 19, 2016, 2:56 pm
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coldwar -
Jehovah reveals Himself by that name to Moses telling him that
Abraham, Isaac, etc. did not know Him by this name. As I see it,
it's only one God but written about from different perspectives
depending on what was happening at the time. The culture
determined how God is seen at the time. Jesus called upon Elohim
on the cross. Our challenge I believe is to find the
transcendent link between them just as we relate what we
understand of God millennia later to modern ears. The past is
gone. What's behind its God then I believe is the same
transcendence availble to us today. It has to be so there won't
be divisions spiritually among people. It requires more than a
superficial reading of things and coming to quick conclusions
about things. This is why I start with ontology - trying to
understand just what God is. God is just a word that can mean
many things to different people but there's only one true
Transcendence that we can all rationally agree upon and
experience. It even requires arguing with God at times. The God
I understand little of can take it since He loves me/us more
than we can say.
para . . . .
#Post#: 12576--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do people believe what Jesus said about Moses?
By: Kerry Date: July 19, 2016, 9:00 pm
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[quote author=paralambano link=topic=1102.msg12565#msg12565
date=1468850218]
Kerry -
Well . . . . not now, back then. He doesn't stop complaining
until after the first signs.[/quote]
I wouldn't call it complaining.
[quote]Why would it not be a material fire? If seen properly,
everything is a manifestation of God by its true spiritual idea.
And isn't a creosote bush a lowly thing itself? I think it's
ridiculous to argue over the type of bush it was. We both agree
that it was a spiritual fire since there was a manifestation of
God there.[/quote]Material fire consume things first of all; and
secondly, introducing the concept of creosote which is not in
the text implies the fire was not much of a miracle. The
miracle, if anything can be called a miracle, was that even the
cursed vegetation could be made to glorify God. If the earth
was purified and made sacred. We have agreed earlier that
Moses owed much to the Feminine Principle; and the fact that the
earth was made holy shows that too. Miracles are performed by
the Feminine Principle -- bringing life, bringing new objects,
into existence.
Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth
opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon
cast out of his mouth.
We see the same Feminine Principle at work when the earth
swallowed up Korah.
The burning bush is the Cross as well. Now surely, surely,
there was a material cross which the physical body of Jesus was
placed on; but that material cross also became the intersection
of where Heaven met the earth. The burning bush is a symbol
of the Tree of Life as the Cross is. If we crucify ourselves
as told to by Jesus, Heaven and earth also intersect within us
-- at the heart. The heart is transformed and burns within us
as it did with the men walking on the way to Emmaeus. This is
the Sacred Heart. Thus Moses also wrote that "man is a tree of
the field." And you will love what he said of it, that the
tree that is bearing fruit should never be cut down in time of
war. Does not mankind live in a time of war, spiritual war --
of our own making?
Surely we should not try to blame God or the Devil for anything.
The spiritual wickedness in "high places" is of our own
creating. Consult the wisest of Catholic saints who wrote of
such struggles. The piddling earthly sins are dealt with
first; and when they are corrected, the saints tell us
(correctly) we begin to see our spiritual flaws. As we go
along, we see that the situation is rather like what Pogo said,
"We have seen the enemy, and he is us."
As the heart is freed of these flaws, the Heavenly Star (and
each of us is a Star) begins to descends -- draw nigh unto God,
and He will draw nigh unto you. That is the Spiritual Star
above and the human soul below is growing like a grape on the
Vine. "Grapes on a vine" is a very accurate way of describing
it. When the soul or grape is mature, it is harvested. Yes,
that soul took "astral water from the polluted sea" and made
"spiritual wine" of it. Ha, we talk about Jesus made wine at
Cana but seldom talk about how he wants to make wine out of us.
Into the winepress of God with the grapes then! That scene
in Revelation frightens some; to me, it is a glorious thing.
The "earth" is reaped first. We are like wheat too. What is
worth keeping is preserved. The chaff is discarded. Revelation
14 does not use the word "behead" but that is what it could be
said to be. The one grain of wheat (spiritual substance) sown
into the corrupt earth has multiplied and is then reaped. The
earth was not bearing thorns and thistles but wheat. . . and
chaff. The crown of thorns are converted into the eternal
Crown of Life "around the head". Then comes the reaping of
the grapes and placing them in the "winepress of the wrath of
God". Why wrath? It is time for judgment! What is
worthwhile is harvested and preserved and the useless bits are
discarded.
If someone manages by some means to convert 100% of body and
soul into spiritual substance, his body may vanish. There is
nothing left behind. This was the case, I believe, with both
Mary and Bithiah. It could be thought of as a miracle; but it
isn't. All that happened was that all the atoms of their
physical bodies were brought into the Divine Light and converted
back into their true state of being Light.
So I think it's an important detail that the bush Moses
encounters was a thorn bush since it shows the reversal of the
curse on the earth depicted earlier in Genesis. I also cannot
prove it, but I think Moses was assumed bodily into
Heaven,perhaps not 100% but to a very large extent. I connect
that with the burning bush of thorns.
[quote]You might see it as the Angel of the Lord; I call it
God-Consciousness received.Not at all grave. We read that the
anger of the Lord was kindled against Moses. Why would God get
angry with Moses?[/quote]The anger of God is not like the anger
of men. When the Bible uses the expression, the "wrath of God,"
it is telling us only that men are experiencing something which,
if men had done it, would have had wrath as a motive. We can
feel that God is angry with us; we can feel that God is
punishing us; and this is how we are experiencing things, but
the "flaw" is ours. If we know what God is (and this is where
the knowledge of the Jews becomes important), we know this is
impossible even if the literal words in Scripture put it that
way. Without the "oracles of the Jews" -- meaning the
knowledge traditionally passed down by oral means -- we are
very apt to interpret passages in the Bible literally and thus
foolishly. Christians may like to talk about the benefits of
their beliefs over those of the Jews; but Paul wrote:
Romans 3:3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is
there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed
the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make
the faith of God without effect?
I believe it is almost impossible to come to the proper
understanding of the Bible without those "oracles." It is
surely impossible to do so if we have a flawed understanding of
"what" God is. Note that I use "what" instead of "who" --
since that is what Jesus said.
John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship:
for salvation is of the Jews.
The idea of God as a "person" who becomes frustrated and angry
is fantastic and amusing in one way but disastrous and
horrifying in another way. There is no way to "win" against
God. You can't threaten Him or His Purposes. Everything is
proceeding as planned. Things are under control most
wonderfully. There is nothing for God to be upset about. God
is not like an immature person who creates a bad situation and
then blames others for it. God is Creator, and there is nothing
wrong for Him to be frustrated about. We can however get
an "emotional" response from God if we do not love one another
-- if we are injuring His other children, He is not happy. If
God has a weakness, that's it. We can make Him suffer by
injuring each other. Thus John informs us it's impossible to
say we love God if we don't love each other.
What "feels" like anger to us is really Love correcting us. We
humans tend to associate all correction with anger.
Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be
zealous therefore, and repent.
God is therefore strengthening Moses by removing his
reservations about his ability to lead Israel. The exchange had
to be honest if that was to happen. You say Moses was carnal,
I say not. I say that because he took Jethro's sheep far away
from where the lawless nomadic types were. Exodus tells us
where he was; and he was far from "home" and far too from the
thieves who were of the same sort that gave Zipporah problems.
Religious freedom also enters the picture since Jethro's
neighbors despised him because he was not an idolater. Moses
exemplifies then the proper type of shepherd, willing to lay
down his life to save . . . not his own sheep . . . but the
sheep entrusted to his care. He was also clever and took the
sheep far away from potential trouble. Is that a sign of
carnality?
Earlier you said, I think, he was afraid of returning to Egypt
since he was a wanted man. He never mentioned that. Like a
good shepherd, he did not let that enter the picture. If he
thought about it, he didn't mention it. He was probably
thinking of it though since after he agreed to go, God told him
not to worry on that front since all those who sought his life
were dead.
I think it an error to say Moses was afraid. True, he was
clever and wanted to avoid trouble so he left Egypt. But he
was fearless when he saw the Egyptian hitting the Israelite; and
he was fearless again when the lawless "shepherds" drove the
daughters of Jethro away from the water.
Now think about this. When he defended the man from Israel,
he blabbed instead of keeping quiet. "Loose lips sink ships."
His talk put Moses' life in jeopardy. If he had kept quiet,
no one would have known what happened. What kind of gratitude
was that? But when Moses defended the daughters of Jethro,
Jethro was amazed when they hadn't invited him back to meet him;
and they went and got him, and Moses wound up marrying one of
the daughters. I don't know about you; but I would have been
content to live with Jethro in Midian. Why bother trying to
help the people of Israel if they were so ungracious and
ungrateful? Why would Moses care about them? Just because
they were Israelites and he was one too? No, we see Moses
being offending when he saw injustice being done to anyone, no
matter what tribe they were. He was not a racist or tribalist
-- but some in his own family was.
Numbers 12:1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of
the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an
Ethiopian woman.
I try to put myself into Moses' shoes. Without any knowledge of
how God wanted to bring Israel out of Egypt and why, I would
have been inclined to want to stay in Midian among people who
treated me with respect than to return to Egypt and face the
cruel acts of the Egyptians and the ungraciousness of the
Israelite. "Let them rot in Egypt," is what I would have
thought, "When you try to help them, they betray you."
Moses would have been right to think they would betray him again
too -- they did it again and again.
What was missing in that equation was how things would play out
in the future. I believe the future of the entire planet hung
in the balance. Israel needed to come out of Egypt, not to
reward them or because they deserved it, but because the fate of
the whole world was at stake. False religion was afflicting
both Israelite and Egyptian. Both could be seen as victims of
false religion; and God using Moses could change all that. So
the True Judgment was not over how things were right then but
about the future and how things could be better. Religion and
politics were mixed together in Egypt. Religion was used to
prop up a corrupt and evil regime. There was no religious
freedom. Pharaoh was not content being the earthly power but
wanted to control the hearts and minds of all his subjects -- he
wanted what was God's. The confrontation at first was over
religious freedom.
Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the
LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and
if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even
thy firstborn.
It was over religious freedom. Why did God threaten Pharaoh's
firstborn? Why kill all the other firstborn children later?
It was better so -- it was an act of Mercy. The firstborn
males in Egypt were the priests of their families. That was
lawful, as it should have been. But evil spirits were taking
over, getting born as the firstborn males. Things were getting
worse and worse. It reached the point where God put it to a
test to see if Pharaoh would allow Israel religious freedom.
When he did not, he transgressed. It was a violation of the
Law of Free Will. Secular rulers are supposed to wield their
power to protect their citizens by terrorizing the guilty who
violate the Law of Free Will. Here we see a ruler who himself
violated the Law of Free Will.
Thus he was in danger of creating a huge pile of negative karma
for himself. The fate of the world was at stake. Heaven does
not like to allow anyone to create too huge a pile of bad karma.
It was far, far, better for Pharaoh and his army to perish in
the sea than to be allowed ton continue to create bad karma by
violating the Law of Free Will.
Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones
that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were
hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Evil is allowed to continue up to a point since men can repent;
but if the whole world is threatened, God will find a way to
intervene using one of His servants.
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there
should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days
shall be shortened.
Sodom followed the same pattern. The children being born in
Sodom were monsters. Their parents were bad enough and could
not be counted on to teach their children anything; and the
children were worse than their parents. We can see that by how
"young" is mentioned before "old" -- do not be misled by the KJV
which reverses the order for some inexplicable reason.
Genesis 19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even
the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young,
all the people from every quarter:
It should read "young and old" showing that the young men were
the instigators. I think we also see the need for
intervention by Heaven in the days of Noah since men were
becoming progressively more wicked. God does not intervene
however without agreement from at least one man. God does not
act like a dictator imposing His Will on others. Nor will God
reverse the decision that mankind is to exercise dominion over
the earth. If God wishes to influence events, He finds someone
to agree with Him. A prophet hints at this but doesn't say so
explicitly:
Amos 3:7 Surely the LORD God will do nothing, but he revealeth
his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Why tell Abraham about Sodom? We can say Abraham asked for
God to extend Mercy. Very good. But we should also be able to
see that Isaac and his offspring would not survive and thrive if
Sodom and the other cities of the plains continued to become
more and more evil. The den of the worst vipers needed to be
wiped out so the "child of promise" would survive. Again the
salvation of the entire world was at stake. God did not punish
Sodom because He was angry at them. He "punished" them to
protect the innocent. Evil souls could still incarnate in
tribes (notably as Amorites) that were less evil. Maybe they
would improve. Some did, but the ones would did not would
corrupt things so much that God would be justified in taking
action later.
Genesis 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come
hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
If children are going to be born in this world, there needs to
be a chance for them to benefit from life on earth. If things
were ever to become so overwhelmingly evil that an innocent
child could never find it possible to choose Love over hate, God
would intervene -- and all He needs is one person on the earth
to agree with Him.
What does it mean then when God told Moses Israel was his
firstborn? If you think about it, you can see that the
salvation of the Gentiles is being hinted at. Other "children"
were to follow; and this is more explicitly mentioned by John:
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude,
which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and
people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the
Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Why then the confusion over the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel?
The "blindness" of Israel itself also serves a purpose. If
all of Israel had achieved spiritual perfection under Moses,
they would have died and gone to Heaven. Who then would
incarnate on the earth to act as intercessors for the Gentiles?
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be
ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own
conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until
the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages
and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory
of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the
hope of glory:
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in
all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ
Jesus:
#Post#: 12577--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do people believe what Jesus said about Moses?
By: Kerry Date: July 19, 2016, 9:01 pm
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Continuing about Moses:
Did God tell Moses about this mystery? I say yes. It may not
be found easily in the Torah, but He told him.
Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh
angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should
be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Therefore I attribute Moses' reluctance to a lack of knowledge
and to humility. I believe the lack of knowledge got changed
into knowledge when God explained things to him; and his own
shortcomings, real or imaginary, didn't matter after God
promised to be with him.
He had taken care of Jethro's sheep faithfully; and I think this
prepared him for when God told him to take care of His sheep.
Anyone would not seek reassurances that God would be with him
would be slightly mad in my opinion. It is not much to ask, is
it? You can count on God to do what is right anyway. If you
have faith in that, you have faith that God will not desert you;
but are you right in your faith? Ask. Still there comes a time
when God will say, "Enough talk already. It's time now for
action."
You have also criticized Moses for disobeying God. I ask what
right did God have to ask this of Moses? You can't believe
God is a dictator and displeased if someone doesn't obey Him.
Did God give Moses free will? If yes, then why would God be
displeased if Moses was reluctant to go?
I know what I believe; but what do you believe? I can tell you
what I believe. I believe Moses was born for this purpose and
had agreed to do it before he was born. He got born into a
family with a father who circumcised him. This shows that God
was watching over him and being sure he was born into a family
with an inkling about God. Thus God says -- and it appears odd
at first since the usual phrasing mentions only Abraham, Isaac
and Jacob:
Exodus 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God
of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses
hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
I believe that Moses had forgotten his original purpose in
being born, and God was reminding him, following the formula of
election or predestination, calling, justifying and glorifying
Paul sets forth in Romans 8. Moses had already agreed to it
before he was born -- just as he had agreed to being circumcised
before being born.
The role of Bithiah also would have started to make more sense
to him. Since earthly authority was legitimately invested in
the royal family, Moses obtained a degree of authority himself
by being adopted by Bithiah. I believe too that she was born
for that purpose -- predestinated for it. It is not an
exaggeration to me to believe that the fate of the whole world
again depended on what she would do when she spotted that ark.
She is a type of redeemer to me, someone who also left Egypt
with Israel -- someone who probably inspired other Egyptians to
leave and join themselves with Israel.
Compare Moses' reluctance to Paul's attitude. I do not see much
sin if any in Paul before his conversion. I see him as missing
a critical piece of information. He was acting with great
vigor doing what he thought was right. I can't criticize him
much for that. When God was ready for him, He got him. Paul
got the missing piece of information, and it changed everything.
When Jesus reproved Paul, he was compassionate about it
although we could theorize that being made blind was a sign of
anger -- "it is hard for thee" Jesus said to him.
Acts 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying
unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus
whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the
pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou
have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into
the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Did Paul do any harm to Christians? Yes, but he wasn't allowed
to do anything too great; and it was also given to him the power
and authority to undo much of that harm and also to do greater
good. I would not say Paul's persecution of the Christians
was the result of a carnal nature. While he admits to having a
carnal nature elsewhere, I still would not attribute his error
in persecuting Christians to that. I believe it was a lack of
knowledge; and since I also believe God will supply every need
and will reward those who earnestly seek Him, I must believe
Paul erred out of ignorance while earnestly seeking God. How
many sins are committed out of ignorance? I say most, almost
all. Paul may jhave judged himself more harshly than I would
-- I see him as doing whatever was asked of him -- if there was
something carnal there, he didn't cater to it. I believe that
about Moses too.
#Post#: 12578--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do people believe what Jesus said about Moses?
By: Kerry Date: July 19, 2016, 9:30 pm
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[quote author=paralambano link=topic=1102.msg12575#msg12575
date=1468958205]
Jehovah reveals Himself by that name to Moses telling him that
Abraham, Isaac, etc. did not know Him by this name.
[/quote]Rashi says of this that it is not written "My Name YHWH
I did not make known to them" but "I did not become known."
God made several promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob -- and
they died without seeing those promises kept. God is saying
here that He is about to keep those promises, revealing that
YHWH is a God that keeps His promises. Rashi ties this
statement to what follows about God's keeping those promises:
Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto
Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I
not known to them.
4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give
them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein
they were strangers.
5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel,
whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my
covenant.
6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and
I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians,
and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you
with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:
7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a
God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which
bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.
8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I
did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I
will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.
It cannot mean, can it, that no one knew of this Name before
since men had started using the Name -- and variations on it
to give names to their children and idols. This passage is
inadequately translated:
Genesis 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and
he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of
the LORD.
How it could mean anything pious when we know that men kept
becoming more and more wicked? No, I think Rashi has to be
right about this; and I think too that history shows us how the
Name got corrupted and assigned to false gods. Hence we
should not be surprised to find other cultures had gods with
names similar to YHWH.
I'm not sure if Paul had the pre-Flood era in mind when he
wrote what he did; but Genesis mentions the evil imagination at
work; and Paul does as well:
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of
the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that
are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are
without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as
God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their
imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image
made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted
beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the
lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between
themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and
served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for
ever. Amen.
He doesn't mention the Roman god Jupiter or Jove; but it comes
to my mind how close Jove is to Jehovah.
#Post#: 12579--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do people believe what Jesus said about Moses?
By: Kerry Date: July 19, 2016, 11:04 pm
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[quote author=paralambano link=topic=1102.msg12565#msg12565
date=1468850218]
Jesus pretty much gave a quick yes, understanding that He could
be rescued from the ordeal but wouldn't be. It's a question of
obedience. Moses made multiple excuses; Jesus did not. This is
partly why Jesus is greater than Moses.[/quote]
We read that also differently. I think Jesus was saying he was
seeking any kind of promotion. If he drank of that cup, it
could mean he was seeking a promotion. Compare:
Matthew 20:20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedees children
with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of
him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him,
Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand,
and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye
able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be
baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto
him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and
be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit
on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it
shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation
against the two brethren.
We see that the cup has two aspects. One is willing to be a
sacrifice, the other is a promotion. In this passage, Jesus
indicates he's willing to be the sacrifice. The promotion, if
any, is not relevant to him; and he advises the same
indifference to others. James got to drink of the cup of
sacrifice; but we can't be sure about the promotion:
Acts 12:1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth
his hands to vex certain of the church.
2 And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
[quote]Jesus built the greater "house" as Paul wrote:
For he has come to deserve greater glory than Moses, just as the
builder of a house deserves greater honor than the house itself!
For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all
things is God. Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a
servant, to testify to the things that would be spoken. But
Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. We are of his
house, if in fact we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope
we take pride in (Hebrews 3:1-6).[/quote]
This passage is over my head; and to be blunt about it, some
parts of Hebrews look like exaggerated forgeries to me. That is
a pity since some parts of it also seem sublimely inspired to
me. This is a section which seems to want to build up Jesus by
taking Moses down. It doesn't seem right to me. It looks
worldly to me, the way one politician tries to get elected by
showing how inferior his opponent is. Hebrews 9 contains
another passage which draws comparisons. Yet there the author of
that forged passage goes too far, saying too much and betraying
his ignorance in verse 4.
Hebrews 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances
of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the
candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called
the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the
Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant
overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that
had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the
covenant;
Oh really now? Perhaps some "well-meaning" monk wrote that,
adding it to his text. I don't know; but I know it brings the
whole book into some question. I could go into other
complaints I have about the Book of Hebrews but what good would
that do?
I see Elijah and Moses as friends and allies of Jesus, not
competitors. Each of them was willing to serve in the job
assigned to him.
[quote]Witness Isaiah: Then one of the seraphim flew to me with
a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the
altar. With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has
touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned
for. Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I
send? And who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”
(Isaiah 6:6-8)
His carnality.[/quote]Again I would hesitate to attribute this
to carnality. Perhaps it is, but I see it as more an
intellectual problem than of carnality. Few people have the
ability to hold their tongues when they don't know. They can
say hurtful things without knowing it until later -- sometimes
as soon as the words come out, sometimes later. Let me quote
what Job said of himself: " therefore have I uttered that I
understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not."
If you didn't have a carnal nature to begin with, perhaps you
could get one if God doesn't intervene and tame the tongue.
James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is
the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body,
and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire
of hell.
So I'd say we see God taming Isaiah's tongue there by purifying
it. I'd say God also purified Moses' tongue:
Exodus 4:11 And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's
mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the
blind? have not I the Lord?
12 Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach
thee what thou shalt say.
In the case of Isaiah, we read it was a "burning coal." In the
case of Moses, we see a burning bush.
[quote]Let's look at the context:
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is
my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto thee, Let my son go,
that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold,
I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn. And it came to pass by
the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill
him.
Moses is instructed to tell Pharaoh that Israel is God's
firstborn son and if Pharaoh doesn't free Israel, He will kill
Pharaoh's firstborn. The text immediately then says that Jehovah
sought to kill him. Then we have a solution offered by Zipporah
who circumcises her firstborn and it appears no one dies at the
inn.[/quote]
Ah, but it wasn't her firstborn. The first male child had been
circumcised. It was the second son who wasn't.
There may be a connection however. If Israel is seen as the
firstborn of God and Egypt another potential son, the need to
circumcise the Gentile son (by this I mean spiritual
circumcision more than physical) is demonstrated. We know,
don't we, that some Egyptians left Egypt with Israel. I reckon
they were those of the spiritual circumcision but it could be
physical as well since circumcision was known and practiced
among the Egyptians.
[quote]I don't believe that God punishes children for the sins
of their fathers. I don't believe God punishes anybody for
anything. I don't believe that God is going to kill Moses or
Moses' son.[/quote]
I tell you it was a demon -- just as it was Satan who provoked
David to number Israel. One text says Satan did it and the
other says the wrath of God did it. Satan is fractured off
from the Unity of God -- but still retaining something godlike,
enough so that it can be referred to as God.
But you may have an irresolute God then who does nothing when
killing one guilty person might benefit hundreds, thousands or
even millions of people.
[quote]As I wrote, the context here is one of Moses continually
giving excuses (even when empowered) not to go to save God's
firstborn.[/quote]You see excuses while I see reservations.
[quote]So, an anthropopatic God is is seen as wanting to do an
anthropomorphic deed: kill somebody. This is not my version of
God, not by what I understand in the NT and beyond. I wrote that
it's a spiritual principle that Moses is not adhering to. He's
being stubborn in not obeying God when God's firstborn are dying
in Egypt. Children/people die every day. So, might his
firstborn. This is the way the human or carnal mind works. Here
is a man chosen and empowered by Love to save God's firstborn
(Israel) who appears not to want to help save them while they
are dying. Send someone else, he says. Firstborn die. [/quote]
This might be a little more convincing if the son were the
firstborn in fact -- and it wasn't -- and if the text were
clearer in saying the angel threatened the son and not Moses.
[quote]The text says Jehovah sought to kill him. If this is not
ordained by God, then we have two actual Causes. I too believe
it's a demon, but we might not agree as to how. I'm hoping that
we do. See what I wrote of demons in another thread.[/quote]
Some draw the distinction involving the permissive Will of God.
Satan is free to work by the permissive Will of God if we are in
a state of rebellion. God permits this since the buffeting of
Satan can serve a useful purpose of getting our attention and
getting us back in line.
[quote]This could be so but he needed to be honest with God this
way. Since God's anger was kindled toward Him, I would say that
God was not pleased with His excuses. In other words, less
anthropopatically, he was disobeying the rule of Love. [/quote]
This passage involving Moses' excuses might be unique for all I
know since it says the wrath of God was kindled but God is not
threatening any action. Why would that be? I think God had
enough faith in Moses that He didn't feel the need to threaten
him with anything -- or allow Satan to threaten him. All would
end well, so why bother? The next instance of the wrath of God
is different to me -- Moses is out of line. He has not brought
a son into the Community of Israel as his own father did for
him. When a son is born into Israel, I believe it is because of
predestination and agreement -- and Moses failed to honor his
own son's wish to be brought into the earthly community of
Israel.
The situation is different later when Moses did not see to it
that the children born in the wilderness were circumcised. Why
bother if they were circumcised or not? Their parents had lost
the ability to exercise spiritual authority over their children
-- so wait until they're old enough to do it themselves -- wait
for Joshua to have them circumcised.
[quote]As I wrote, you can't project not caring toward's
another's suffering beloveds without the possibility of
transference to your own. Children die every day. So might mine.
It's the father who brings it upon the child by his own
projection of what he believes about certain things. Love/Tzippi
here is telling Moses to wisen-up.Ya, women, being small l
life-bearers.
Moses was a human being like all of us. He had his faults as we
all do apparently. I don't see him as "evil" or intending
"evil". This is your imagination as it appears to me. If he were
perfect, I doubt that any of us could relate to him. I try not
to operate out of fear. Calm yourself, if you are excited,
respectfully. Don't be like someone I know: a drama king. You
have little idea where I am on the continuum (perfect Love casts
out fear). What I have said about Moses, I believe is universal.
I think we have all in some way disobeyed the call of Love or
else we would not be in the condition(s) we find ourselves
in.[/quote]
I tend to react with some energy when I think someone may be
saying something negative about a saint when it's not that clear
to me.
Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's
elect? It is God that justifieth.
If we are all guilty, perhaps the first step to correcting that
is not laying a charge against others when we don't know?
Perhaps the first step is admitting it when we don't know. Woe
to us if we are guessing and get it wrong. We may not be
bearing "false witness" in a court of law; but we could be close
to it if we say say negative things about people when there's
nothing negative there.
Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;
that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put
bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
If we are wrong about Moses' carnal nature and falsely accuse
him, what hope do we have of having our own forgiven? That is
my concern here.
[quote]Indeed. A learning curve for Moses as for all of us. By
this time, Moses was changed.
Indeed. It's because the righteous man sees the actual good
that's there.[/quote]
We're getting closer to agreeing, I think. I believe when
Moses saw what good he could accomplish by allowing God to work
through him, he didn't hesitate at all. All his reservations
vanished. And although he hadn't mentioned fearing men in
Egypt, God set his mind at rest over that.
[quote]Yes, I think anyone being given an epiphany such as the
one Moses received would be humbled by it. Yes, behind the
anthropomorphic, anthropopatic God often seen superficially in
scripture, particularly the OT. I say it's because i this view
of God was influenced by the time and culture but I think we can
say that Life/Love/Good is transcendent and this is what Moses
was learning. We have less of an anthropomorphic or
anthropopatic God in the NT.[/quote]Perhaps men then were more
spiritual than they are today. Perhaps with the proper
understanding of God -- and that is what is needed in any case
-- all those things don't matter. Nevertheless, we should
realize the Scriptures are a test. How we interpret them
usually says more about us than it says about God. At times, it
seems to me, God decided to make it easy for wicked men to
continue to be wicked. If that's really what they want to do,
why reveal the truth to them? So they can pretend to repent?
I don't think God would have been doing us a favor by making the
Scriptures "easy" to understand. God can postpone judgment on
the wicked as long as there is any excuse, and ignorance is an
excuse.
#Post#: 12585--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do people believe what Jesus said about Moses?
By: coldwar Date: July 20, 2016, 8:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Kerry and Para...
I see you both in a friendly debate, but, because I have
difficulty comprehending the deep details, I don't see the two
of you as being much different. To me, the common ground you
both stand on is "transcendence". Some call it enlightenment, or
waking up. I don't get it. I've not experienced it. My
rationality both dares and allows me to think outside the box,
yet it doesn't seem to allow me to "wake up". - is there one
God or many? I think many, because I think Gods reproduce simply
by 'spinning of" from each other, like the stars do. Example -
the single supreme most high God from the beginning, who is ONLY
spirit and light very quickly spun off Jesus and YHWH ("first
begotten, only begotten and begotten are three different Greek
words, but yet are used interchangeably in reference to Jesus),
and in turn, YHWH spun off the Satan (the adversary). Para -
your writings here suggest the knowledge of one God is evolving
with time - I can rationalise a plurality of Gods more readily
than I can rationalise that, but only in the box of my own mind
do I allow myself to THINK that. But I have to ask you - do you
EXPERIENCE what you ultimately come to believe in?
I tried the Quakers, but not much happened to bring me to
transcendence. They in turn are a very quiet bunch, not only in
silent worship, but also in monthly fellowship - nobody really
says much of anything, especially about what they themselves
experience (which may well be not much of anything). I seem to
have a similar quandary as the Belfast singer Van Morrison, in
his song "Enlightenment" He sings:
"Even now I'm sitting meditating, but still I'm suffering 'cause
that's my problem.... enlightenment, I still don't know what it
is"
Here's a full video of Van doing the song - you might have to
Google the lyrics to get past his Irish accent.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8Oey93oVcU
#Post#: 12586--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do people believe what Jesus said about Moses?
By: paralambano Date: July 20, 2016, 8:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Kerry -
[quote]I wouldn't call it complaining.[/quote]
Moses was human as we all:
And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Lord, wherefore hast
thou so evil entreated this people? Why is it that thou hast
sent me? For since I came to Pharaoh to speak in thy name, he
hath done evil to this people; neither hast thou delivered thy
people at all.
I begin with Moses as human who much like us is on a learning
curve.
[quote]Material fire consume things first of all; and secondly,
introducing the concept of creosote which is not in the text
implies the fire was not much of a miracle. The miracle, if
anything can be called a miracle, was that even the cursed
vegetation could be made to glorify God. If the earth was
purified and made sacred. We have agreed earlier that Moses
owed much to the Feminine Principle; and the fact that the earth
was made holy shows that too. Miracles are performed by the
Feminine Principle -- bringing life, bringing new objects, into
existence.
Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth
opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon
cast out of his mouth.
We see the same Feminine Principle at work when the earth
swallowed up Korah.
The burning bush is the Cross as well. Now surely, surely,
there was a material cross which the physical body of Jesus was
placed on; but that material cross also became the intersection
of where Heaven met the earth. The burning bush is a symbol
of the Tree of Life as the Cross is. If we crucify ourselves
as told to by Jesus, Heaven and earth also intersect within us
-- at the heart. The heart is transformed and burns within us
as it did with the men walking on the way to Emmaeus. This is
the Sacred Heart. Thus Moses also wrote that "man is a tree of
the field." And you will love what he said of it, that the
tree that is bearing fruit should never be cut down in time of
war. Does not mankind live in a time of war, spiritual war --
of our own making?
Surely we should not try to blame God or the Devil for anything.
The spiritual wickedness in "high places" is of our own
creating. Consult the wisest of Catholic saints who wrote of
such struggles. The piddling earthly sins are dealt with
first; and when they are corrected, the saints tell us
(correctly) we begin to see our spiritual flaws. As we go
along, we see that the situation is rather like what Pogo said,
"We have seen the enemy, and he is us."
As the heart is freed of these flaws, the Heavenly Star (and
each of us is a Star) begins to descends -- draw nigh unto God,
and He will draw nigh unto you. That is the Spiritual Star
above and the human soul below is growing like a grape on the
Vine. "Grapes on a vine" is a very accurate way of describing
it. When the soul or grape is mature, it is harvested. Yes,
that soul took "astral water from the polluted sea" and made
"spiritual wine" of it. Ha, we talk about Jesus made wine at
Cana but seldom talk about how he wants to make wine out of us.
Into the winepress of God with the grapes then! That scene
in Revelation frightens some; to me, it is a glorious thing.
The "earth" is reaped first. We are like wheat too. What is
worth keeping is preserved. The chaff is discarded. Revelation
14 does not use the word "behead" but that is what it could be
said to be. The one grain of wheat (spiritual substance) sown
into the corrupt earth has multiplied and is then reaped. The
earth was not bearing thorns and thistles but wheat. . . and
chaff. The crown of thorns are converted into the eternal
Crown of Life "around the head". Then comes the reaping of
the grapes and placing them in the "winepress of the wrath of
God". Why wrath? It is time for judgment! What is
worthwhile is harvested and preserved and the useless bits are
discarded.
If someone manages by some means to convert 100% of body and
soul into spiritual substance, his body may vanish. There is
nothing left behind. This was the case, I believe, with both
Mary and Bithiah. It could be thought of as a miracle; but it
isn't. All that happened was that all the atoms of their
physical bodies were brought into the Divine Light and converted
back into their true state of being Light.
So I think it's an important detail that the bush Moses
encounters was a thorn bush since it shows the reversal of the
curse on the earth depicted earlier in Genesis. I also cannot
prove it, but I think Moses was assumed bodily into
Heaven,perhaps not 100% but to a very large extent. I connect
that with the burning bush of thorns. [/quote]
Your welcome to all of this. The miracle there for me is Moses'
reception of God-Consciousness by whatever Spirit-means. Having
it a creosote bush does nothing to diminish this for me. I would
say it is still a material manifestation of a permanent,
spiritual idea of God - that Life can spring from an idea of His
and that this Life can be part of our consciousness. The
Christ-principle was seen in the fire of Nebuchadnezzer as well.
There is nothing but Goodness present in the creosote, thorn, or
furnace of a king. This was understood by the three lads. Moses
was having some issues.
[quote]The anger of God is not like the anger of men. When the
Bible uses the expression, the "wrath of God," it is telling us
only that men are experiencing something which, if men had done
it, would have had wrath as a motive. We can feel that God is
angry with us; we can feel that God is punishing us; and this
is how we are experiencing things, but the "flaw" is ours. If
we know what God is (and this is where the knowledge of the Jews
becomes important), we know this is impossible even if the
literal words in Scripture put it that way. Without the
"oracles of the Jews" -- meaning the knowledge traditionally
passed down by oral means -- we are very apt to interpret
passages in the Bible literally and thus foolishly. Christians
may like to talk about the benefits of their beliefs over those
of the Jews; but Paul wrote:
Romans 3:3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is
there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed
the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make
the faith of God without effect?
I believe it is almost impossible to come to the proper
understanding of the Bible without those "oracles." It is
surely impossible to do so if we have a flawed understanding of
"what" God is. Note that I use "what" instead of "who" --
since that is what Jesus said.[/quote]
Yes, I agree with most of this. I read the wrath of God to mean
something done by us which is opposed to the rule of Love. If
you must know anything about my theology, it is that I read
scripture through the lens of the NT.
Yes. This is what I've been trying to tell you many times by my
starting with who and what God is. This is my starting point.
Unless we have somewhat accurate and agreeable views about it,
we begin to talk past one another. This talk of thorn v.
creosote and crosses and wheat is all well and good but it means
very little if there's no Truthful base there about the Holy
Spirit and the nature of the fall to begin with. I believe that
matter is an illusion when Spirit is All there is. As for the
oracles of God, we see how confused some sages were in some
instances when they wrote them down in Talmud. This sage says
this, another that. take your pick according to your lights.
[quote]God is therefore strengthening Moses by removing his
reservations about his ability to lead Israel. The exchange had
to be honest if that was to happen. You say Moses was carnal,
I say not. I say that because he took Jethro's sheep far away
from where the lawless nomadic types were. Exodus tells us
where he was; and he was far from "home" and far too from the
thieves who were of the same sort that gave Zipporah problems.
Religious freedom also enters the picture since Jethro's
neighbors despised him because he was not an idolater. Moses
exemplifies then the proper type of shepherd, willing to lay
down his life to save . . . not his own sheep . . . but the
sheep entrusted to his care. He was also clever and took the
sheep far away from potential trouble. Is that a sign of
carnality?[/quote]
No. By carnality, I mean human imperfection. What you call
reservations, I call errors. We can see this by what I quoted
above of him. We have the example of Isaiah who was eager to
help. I don't place the human Moses on a pedestal. Like all of
us, he at times operated outside the rule of Love. Therefore, he
was in error at times. I have no fear in saying this since I
would have no part of a perfect Moses whom I couldn't identify
with in terms of humanness or carnality. What I mean by
carnality is our human errors. Paul says to be carnally-minded,
that is, to be focused (constantly thinking and operating out of
carnal mind) on the material and its imperfections is death. I
don't believe Moses was this way since I don't believe his
intentions were evil. He was like us many times - in error
because he didn't have a better understanding of the
Christ-Mind.
I've read the rest of your post from which I have quoted above
and I think for brevity's sake it can be summed up by your
statement here: There's no way to win against God. It's what we
make of this statement that tells us who and what we believe God
to be. Our way of thinking emerges from it.
(Cont'd following)
para . . .
#Post#: 12587--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do people believe what Jesus said about Moses?
By: paralambano Date: July 20, 2016, 9:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
coldwar -
I dig Van. Especially Brown-Eyed Girl. My favourite Irish
musician is Rory Gallagher:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33Jaodra7AY
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33Jaodra7AY
Listen, you don't have to join a group to be in awe of God.
Start with your consciousness, all you really have. You are
either conscious/aware or not. Everything proceeds from that.
You might also understand that you did not originate your
consciousness, well, at least you might have no knowledge of you
originating it. You might say matter produces it, but you
wouldn't be aware of matter without it. It just kind of appeared
or is, no? You might then begin to think that your consciousness
is being produced by something like it, a greater one, something
immaterial/spirit like your consciousness/mind which you really
can't taste or experience with material senses. Some kind of
Intelligence without barriers, all there really is and your
consciousness a part of it. Just meditate on this. I guess this
is being still. This is how I begin. This was breathtaking for
me at least and somewhat scary since the awe I experienced was
so beyond me and anything I had experienced. Then I read how
this Spirit is in scripture and how others describe it. You get
some kind of glimpse that your consciousness and the greater
Consciousness are one and the same.
You don't even have to understand or read what Kerry and I are
discussing here to understand transcendence. I had a
transcendental experience without knowing much of anything
spiritually. It's a gift that comes to all who are seeking, that
is, by intent. You'll find Truth everywhere, not just here since
Infinite Consciousness is Omnipresent and available to all. It's
just that our consciousness is not always in tune with
Him/It/Her.
Van has it right as long as he seeks and sees Good/Love in that
reality. And it does comes to pass since Good is the only
reality. Not everything is an illusion.
Hope this helps.
para . . . .
#Post#: 12588--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do people believe what Jesus said about Moses?
By: paralambano Date: July 20, 2016, 9:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Kerry - (Continuing . . .)
[quote]Therefore I attribute Moses' reluctance to a lack of
knowledge and to humility. I believe the lack of knowledge got
changed into knowledge when God explained things to him; and his
own shortcomings, real or imaginary, didn't matter after God
promised to be with him.
He had taken care of Jethro's sheep faithfully; and I think this
prepared him for when God told him to take care of His sheep.
Anyone would not seek reassurances that God would be with him
would be slightly mad in my opinion. It is not much to ask, is
it? You can count on God to do what is right anyway. If you
have faith in that, you have faith that God will not desert you;
but are you right in your faith? Ask. Still there comes a time
when God will say, "Enough talk already. It's time now for
action."
You have also criticized Moses for disobeying God. I ask what
right did God have to ask this of Moses? You can't believe
God is a dictator and displeased if someone doesn't obey Him.
Did God give Moses free will? If yes, then why would God be
displeased if Moses was reluctant to go?
I know what I believe; but what do you believe? I can tell you
what I believe. I believe Moses was born for this purpose and
had agreed to do it before he was born. He got born into a
family with a father who circumcised him. This shows that God
was watching over him and being sure he was born into a family
with an inkling about God. Thus God says -- and it appears odd
at first since the usual phrasing mentions only Abraham, Isaac
and Jacob:[/quote]
A lack of knowledge is a human trait. If I have a lack of
knowledge of the mathematical table, I will make errors
mathematically. If we don't understand the principles of
Life/Love/Infinite Spirit, we will make errors.
I don't see Moses as being arrogant. He says nothing when being
taught by Tzippi. Yet, we have Moses still questioning God after
God showed him some miracles. Even after God tells Him rather
immediately that he will be with Moses. Later, nothing's
changed, God. Well, yes, it has. Its just that Moses can't see
it yet. It's not pretty at times but it gets done.
What right does God have to ask it of Moses? It's Life that
saved his life. By now you must know that Life is a synonym for
God for me. Moses' mother entrusted the care of her child to
Love (another synonym for God for me). There has to be someone
exercising Life in the dream, someone closer to Truth than
others to pull others away from matter. No one closer to God
than Jesus. he knew that as His son, he was the perfect
reflection of His father, having all His traits. So much farther
ahead than Moses when he said, Your will, not Mine since He
understood that it really couldn't be any other way. Once Love
is freely chosen, Love compels.
[quote]We read that also differently. I think Jesus was saying
he was seeking any kind of promotion. If he drank of that cup,
it could mean he was seeking a promotion. Compare:
Matthew 20:20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedees children
with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of
him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him,
Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand,
and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye
able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be
baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto
him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and
be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit
on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it
shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation
against the two brethren.
We see that the cup has two aspects. One is willing to be a
sacrifice, the other is a promotion. In this passage, Jesus
indicates he's willing to be the sacrifice. The promotion, if
any, is not relevant to him; and he advises the same
indifference to others. James got to drink of the cup of
sacrifice; but we can't be sure about the promotion:
Acts 12:1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth
his hands to vex certain of the church.
2 And he killed James the brother of John with the
sword.[/quote]
Jesus understood that He and Infinite Spirit were One and what
His place always is. It's the same as ours: sons of God/ made in
God's image and likeness. He told the Sanhedrin that they'd be
seeing Him coming on the throne of God. He did this by
obedience, not by "reservations".
[quote]This passage is over my head; and to be blunt about it,
some parts of Hebrews look like exaggerated forgeries to me.
That is a pity since some parts of it also seem sublimely
inspired to me. This is a section which seems to want to build
up Jesus by taking Moses down. It doesn't seem right to me.
It looks worldly to me, the way one politician tries to get
elected by showing how inferior his opponent is. Hebrews 9
contains another passage which draws comparisons. Yet there the
author of that forged passage goes too far, saying too much and
betraying his ignorance in verse 4.
Hebrews 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances
of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the
candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called
the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the
Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant
overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that
had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the
covenant;
Oh really now? Perhaps some "well-meaning" monk wrote that,
adding it to his text. I don't know; but I know it brings the
whole book into some question. I could go into other
complaints I have about the Book of Hebrews but what good would
that do?
I see Elijah and Moses as friends and allies of Jesus, not
competitors. Each of them was willing to serve in the job
assigned to him.
[/quote]
It does no good to complain about things and suggest they're
forgeries without probable evidence that they are. I tell you
that Moses was matter-born apparently and Jesus was not. Jesus
had no matter-father. He knew Cause more fully than anyone and
claimed that He was the sole way to it. People understand this
and this is why Jesus has a much greater following than Moses.
The law of Moses has been subsumed in part into Jesus' law. You
see that there is no longer a physical temple. Something greater
has come along and it was initiated by Jesus. Moses was not
allowed what Jesus was given - the ultimate sacrifice and
entrance to the kingdom by it. This is not to say that Moses
isn't in the kingdom. He was representative of matter-Israel and
did not cross the Jordan. Jesus is still rejected by Orthodox
Judaism. They don't believe He is Messiah. They are looking for
a matter-kingdom. Placing Jesus above Moses is no error at all.
It's because of Jesus Christ that Moses finally sees himself as
the perfect reflection of God.
(Work in progress) . . . .
#Post#: 12596--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do people believe what Jesus said about Moses?
By: Kerry Date: July 21, 2016, 7:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=coldwar link=topic=1102.msg12569#msg12569
date=1468884790]Maybe it's the two things combined -- his
killing of the Egyptian, and his excuses to YHWH about his
assignment. Maybe God was sparing him from the consequences of
murder, but when Moses started objecting, then YHWH felt "I have
no use for you if you don't take this on, therefore you must pay
the price of what you've done in killing the Egyptian".[/quote]
I didn't accept it all at once when I heard this; but eventually
I was convinced. The Torah itself does not use the word
"murder" about the killing of the Egyptian.
The word is ratsach here:
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
It's nakah here:
Exodus 2:12 And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw
that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the
sand.
He killed the Egyptian but did not murder him. The definition
of murder is the unlawful killing of another human being. I
wish the KJV had translated Exodus 20:13, "Thou shalt not commit
murder." Why wasn't it murder? Again there are details, so
say the Jews, not in the Torah.
There may be slightly different versions of the story. The
version I found online
HTML http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/tmm/tmm08.htm
says:
It would be a serious error to say that Moses murdered the
Egyptian. In slaying him he was the executioner of a man who,
even by the laws of the Egyptians--who observed what are known
as the seven commandments of the sons of Noah, one of which was
prohibition of murder--deserved death. According to a tradition,
this Egyptian ravished the wife of an Israelite, and to escape
accusation by her husband he killed him, and thus incurred
death.--Exod. Rabba 1.
I seemed to recall the story slightly differently. The Egyptian
was a lawless fellow who intended to force himself sexually on
the wife of the man he was arguing with. I believe -- not sure
-- the Egyptian told the Israelite fellow to go to work, and the
Israelite man refused since he knew the Egyptian would force his
wife to have sex. So they were arguing and the Egyptian
overseer hit the Israelite. (The version above says he killed
him.) The way I understand it, even if the Israelite had told
someone about it, nothing would have happened since the Egyptian
legal system didn't care what happened to the Israelites --
remember they wanted rid of as many of them as possible. I
believe Moses killed the Egyptian to prevent the repeat of
forced sex with the wife and possibly the killing of the
husband.
The question is if killing is ever justifiable? I think it is
to prevent a heinous crime; and if government officials are
using their power to abuse others, that government is not
legitimate. Their laws are not being enforced for the good of
all citizens -- it is anarchy not real government.
Whatever the scenario was, it seems clear that Moses did not
trust the judicial system to exonerate him. Some say Pharaoh
had excused other things Moses had done but refused to intervene
on this. The Egyptian policy then was almost genocidal and the
only reason they kept any Israelites around was for slave labor.
Slavery based on race. I can see slavery for criminal
offenses myself where you demand someone pay for his crime by
forced labor. (Indeed that may still be legal here in the US
even if not practiced much.) But I cannot see slavery because
of race. So the government had to have a policy of terrorizing
its slaves in order to keep them in line. If an Egyptian
overseer wanted to have sex with a woman, you blinked at it.
That sort of thing happened here in the US too when white
overseers or masters forced themselves on black women.
Moses did not think that was right and I agree. The US right
now is facing a similar problem when white policemen kill blacks
without a good reason. Most of the time, I think the police
have valid reasons; but when they don't, they are eroding their
own authority. Thus now we have angry blacks deciding to take
the law into their own hands and find policemen to shoot. That
too is wrong since they are not killing the guilty police but
probably good police. That makes things worse.
The Egyptian government was not legitimate. Thus its laws were
not. There was no lawful authority. Thus Moses was right to
take justice into his own hands and kill the Egyptian. That is
what I believe.
I think too that many Egyptians were tired of the
authoritarianism of the Pharaoh's regime. I reckon that was one
reason the numbers of Israel grew so large frankly. I think
they were intermarrying with Israel and converting to the
Israelite religion which then was purely an oral one. I can't
see any other way of explaining the fact that 70 people went
into Egypt and over 600,000 males came out. That's not
counting women. In three or four generations?
Genesis 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come
hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
So how many generations were they there? Levi would be the
first generation I'd think. Moses' grandfather Kohath would be
the second, and his father Amram would the third (Numbers 3),
making Moses the fourth. So take the number 12 for each tribe
and see how many sons each man would have to have to get such a
huge number. I get over 36.
12
432
15,552
559,872
If the second, third and fourth generations all came out, that
still would be only 575,826 males. It's just not possible
since we know for one thing that each of Jacob's sons didn't
have 36 sons, and it's impossible that future generations would
have had that many. Thus there had be intermarrying and/or
conversions going on.
What seems left unspoken in the Torah is that Pharaoh feared
the spread of a religion that did not prop up his regime. He
feared how the Israelites kept multiplying; but I think we can
see their growing numbers was not all a high birth rate among
Israel. The Egyptians also were probably forsaking the type of
religion Pharaoh wanted since it propped him up. I assume
Pharaoh oppressed Egyptians who converted as a way of trying to
suppress what he saw as a threat. Would you dare convert to
a religion if you knew your children would be killed if they
were male? I can't say I would; but I would leave if I could
so I think a lot of dissatisfied Egyptians left along with
Israel when they saw it was safe to escape a tyrannical
government which operated to serve itself and not to protect and
serve its citizens.
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