DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Love God Only
HTML https://lovegodonly.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Free for All
*****************************************************
#Post#: 12386--------------------------------------------------
Once a priest, always a priest
By: Kerry Date: June 21, 2016, 6:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I have a question about Catholic teaching. On one hand, they
say women can't be ordained priests. On the other hand, they
say, "Once a priest, always a priest." My question is what
would happen if a male priest had a sex change and became a
woman? Does he/she stop being a priest or not? Just
wondering. . . .
#Post#: 12392--------------------------------------------------
Re: Once a priest, always a priest
By: Justaname Date: June 21, 2016, 10:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I don't understand " once a priest always a priest".
We have a friend Tony who used to be a priest. He gave it up
and became a lawyer. He no longer thinks of himself as a priest.
My answer to the second question would be a no...he/she, would
not be who she was before....can't have it both ways.
I am hearing now that some doctors want the candidate to wait
ten years before surgery (just do all the rest without the
surgery part) because they find so many,.. especially those who
were in their early teens when wanting to change...are changing
their minds now, and ten years later they want surgery to be
changed BACK!!
I do object to it all being done on the Health Plan. Why should
we have to pay for that...just because it is slotted as an
'emotional need'...that make me mad. Get your surgery but don't
involve ME or my taxes!! :-\
#Post#: 12394--------------------------------------------------
Re: Once a priest, always a priest
By: HOLLAND Date: June 21, 2016, 4:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=1097.msg12386#msg12386
date=1466509443]
I have a question about Catholic teaching. On one hand, they
say women can't be ordained priests. On the other hand, they
say, "Once a priest, always a priest." My question is what
would happen if a male priest had a sex change and became a
woman? Does he/she stop being a priest or not? Just
wondering. . . .
[/quote]
I understand, Kerry, that according to Catholic belief, the
Catholic priesthood establishes an indelible character to the
person receiving it. Once a priest, always a priest. This it
is stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1581-1584):
VII. THE EFFECTS OF THE SACRAMENT OF HOLY ORDERS
The indelible character
1581 This sacrament configures the recipient to Christ by a
special grace of the Holy Spirit, so that he may serve as
Christ's instrument for his Church. By ordination one is enabled
to act as a representative of Christ, Head of the Church, in his
triple office of priest, prophet, and king.
1582 As in the case of Baptism and Confirmation this share in
Christ's office is granted once for all. The sacrament of Holy
Orders, like the other two, confers an indelible spiritual
character and cannot be repeated or conferred temporarily.74
1583 It is true that someone validly ordained can, for grave
reasons, be discharged from the obligations and functions linked
to ordination, or can be forbidden to exercise them; but he
cannot become a layman again in the strict sense,75 because the
character imprinted by ordination is for ever. The vocation and
mission received on the day of his ordination mark him
permanently.
1584 Since it is ultimately Christ who acts and effects
salvation through the ordained minister, the unworthiness of the
latter does not prevent Christ from acting.76 St. Augustine
states this forcefully:
As for the proud minister, he is to be ranked with the devil.
Christ's gift is not thereby profaned: what flows through him
keeps its purity, and what passes through him remains dear and
reaches the fertile earth. . . . The spiritual power of the
sacrament is indeed comparable to light: those to be enlightened
receive it in its purity, and if it should pass through defiled
beings, it is not itself defiled.77
I suppose a priest having a sex change to that of a woman would
still be a priest but no longer authorized to function as such.
I understand the Catholic church views sex change operations as
sinful and as being an impediment to the functioning of a
priest.
Peace be with you!
#Post#: 12395--------------------------------------------------
Re: Once a priest, always a priest
By: HOLLAND Date: June 21, 2016, 4:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Justaname link=topic=1097.msg12392#msg12392
date=1466522360]
I don't understand " once a priest always a priest".
We have a friend Tony who used to be a priest. He gave it up
and became a lawyer. He no longer thinks of himself as a priest.
My answer to the second question would be a no...he/she, would
not be who she was before....can't have it both ways.[/quote]
I find it, Justaname, that many think the same as you do.
Interestingly, many say that they are Catholics.
[quote][size=14pt]I am hearing now that some doctors want the
candidate to wait ten years before surgery (just do all the rest
without the surgery part) because they find so many,..
especially those who were in their early teens when wanting to
change...are changing their minds now, and ten years later they
want surgery to be changed BACK!!
I do object to it all being done on the Health Plan. Why should
we have to pay for that...just because it is slotted as an
'emotional need'...that make me mad. Get your surgery but don't
involve ME or my taxes!! :-\
[/quote]
I can understand your feelings, but gender identity is not based
upon emotional needs, though they figure some. It involves the
intellect and the apprehension of the intellect that a person's
gender identity is based an existential apprehension of knowing
oneself in a certain way. Call it the positing and intellectual
recognition of male and female minds and the conflict that
occurs if mind and body are not in agreement.
In intersex children, those children who are born with the
genitalia of both sexes, generally at birth a decision is made
to surgically remove one of the genitalia so that the affected
child can grow up in one gender role. But if the wrong surgical
decision is made, a child can grow up with a male or female
mind, but it may not match the body that the child has. This
phenomena is undeniable but illustrates that mind and body can
disagree and that gender is not based upon anatomy.
I think that the need for this surgery exists. I do think that
we are still in the infancy of understanding what is going on
about sexual identity.
Peace be with you!
#Post#: 12399--------------------------------------------------
Re: Once a priest, always a priest
By: Kerry Date: June 21, 2016, 10:46 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=HOLLAND link=topic=1097.msg12395#msg12395
date=1466544141]
I can understand your feelings, but gender identity is not based
upon emotional needs, though they figure some. It involves the
intellect and the apprehension of the intellect that a person's
gender identity is based an existential apprehension of knowing
oneself in a certain way. Call it the positing and intellectual
recognition of male and female minds and the conflict that
occurs if mind and body are not in agreement.
In intersex children, those children who are born with the
genitalia of both sexes, generally at birth a decision is made
to surgically remove one of the genitalia so that the affected
child can grow up in one gender role. But if the wrong surgical
decision is made, a child can grow up with a male or female
mind, but it may not match the body that the child has. This
phenomena is undeniable but illustrates that mind and body can
disagree and that gender is not based upon anatomy.
I think that the need for this surgery exists. I do think that
we are still in the infancy of understanding what is going on
about sexual identity.
Peace be with you!
[/quote]Few of the people getting operations now were intersex
babies.
What is a "female mind"? If I woke up tomorrow morning and
found out my body had been magically changed into being female,
I think I could adjust mentally. I'd say, "I am not a man so
the realistic thing to do is adjust." I don't think I'd want
an operation to be a man. It's not been that many years ago
when "women's rights" groups were telling us there were no
differences between men and women except the biology. Now
we're being told something else. Shouldn't our minds inform us
about what kind of body we have? I may want a younger body or
a stronger one, but my mind tells me I have the body I have. I
don't want to be a woman -- but I don't think I want to be a man
so much that I'd want an operation if I suddenly discovered I
had a female body. Is it that important? I don't think it
should be that important. I don't think we should judge
others by what sex they are, so I wonder why should it be so
important that people want to have operations over it?
I was joking at Dominos about it when the bathroom controversy a
few weeks ago. I said, "What if I feel like a dog and want to
pee outdoors? Shouldn't I be allowed to go to the bathroom
outdoors if I feel like a dog?"
Don't think I'm unsympathetic. I have a "nephew/niece" who's
going through this now. I worry he/she may regret the
operations later. When living as a woman the way she was born,
she was convinced she was gay. Now he/she says not. "She" is
a woman. It's going to be hard for me to change the way I
think about him/her.
[quote]I suppose a priest having a sex change to that of a woman
would still be a priest but no longer authorized to function as
such.[/quote]But women can't be priests! My guess is they'd
say they aren't women.
#Post#: 12400--------------------------------------------------
Re: Once a priest, always a priest
By: Kerry Date: June 21, 2016, 11:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Justaname link=topic=1097.msg12392#msg12392
date=1466522360]
don't understand " once a priest always a priest".[/quote]I see
HOLLAND explained that rule so I don't need to.
[quote]We have a friend Tony who used to be a priest. He gave
it up and became a lawyer. He no longer thinks of himself as a
priest.[/quote]Righto, but theoretically he could still
consecrate the bread and wine.
[quote]My answer to the second question would be a no...he/she,
would not be who she was before....can't have it both
ways.[/quote]Then the "once a priest, always a priest" rule
wouldn't be true.
It may be a problem for Catholic theologians either way they
answer the question.
#Post#: 12410--------------------------------------------------
Re: Once a priest, always a priest
By: Justaname Date: June 22, 2016, 11:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The world is so mixed up and confused. My take is , they can
all do what they like...but NOT surgery on Canadian Health
Care!!
All the lines are so blurred now, nothing is what it seems any
more. Our grandkids and great grandkids will think this is all
NORMAL, as this mess will be what they were born into!!!!
The World is like Alice in Wonderland. Up is down and down is
up.
#Post#: 12441--------------------------------------------------
Re: Once a priest, always a priest
By: HOLLAND Date: June 27, 2016, 1:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=1097.msg12399#msg12399
date=1466567190]
Few of the people getting operations now were intersex
babies.[/quote]
Agreed, Kerry. Intersex babies are brought up to illustrate
that gender identification is not based upon genitilia but upon
mental activity in conjunction or apart from it.
[quote]What is a "female mind"? If I woke up tomorrow morning
and found out my body had been magically changed into being
female, I think I could adjust mentally. I'd say, "I am not a
man so the realistic thing to do is adjust." I don't think I'd
want an operation to be a man. It's not been that many years
ago when "women's rights" groups were telling us there were no
differences between men and women except the biology. Now
we're being told something else. Shouldn't our minds inform us
about what kind of body we have? I may want a younger body or
a stronger one, but my mind tells me I have the body I have. I
don't want to be a woman -- but I don't think I want to be a man
so much that I'd want an operation if I suddenly discovered I
had a female body. Is it that important? I don't think it
should be that important. I don't think we should judge
others by what sex they are, so I wonder why should it be so
important that people want to have operations over it?[/quote]
I can understand your skepticism but gender identity seems to
not be a matter of human decision at all but a matter of
realization, an awakening to a sense of sexual identity. The
inner conflict regarding that identity is what leads many to
make the gender reassignment surgery to try to make their
genitilia to conform to their inner identity as such. The
confusion about how to relate to others and the need to conform
to conventional sexual roles is behind the surgery.
[quote]I was joking at Dominos about it when the bathroom
controversy a few weeks ago. I said, "What if I feel like a
dog and want to pee outdoors? Shouldn't I be allowed to go to
the bathroom outdoors if I feel like a dog?"[/quote]
;D But gender identity and an identification of being another
separate kind of being are too different things so the analogy
fails.
[quote]Don't think I'm unsympathetic. I have a "nephew/niece"
who's going through this now. I worry he/she may regret the
operations later. When living as a woman the way she was born,
she was convinced she was gay. Now he/she says not. "She" is
a woman. It's going to be hard for me to change the way I
think about him/her. But women can't be priests! My guess is
they'd say they aren't women.
[/quote]
I think, Kerry, why so many are skeptical about all this is the
fact that there are not only transgender people but trigender
people. Transgender people identify themselves as having a
sexual identity apart or different from their genitilia.
Trigender people can experience sexual identity that includes
both the genders and some or all of the sexual orientations of
those genders. Surgery is affected on the former to correct or
resolve the condition; surgery is useless for trigender persons
since they already have in place the genitilia for one of those
genders. I would suggest that you be patient with your
nephew/niece. Hopefully he/she has properly recognized
himself/herself as properly transgender and not trigender or
he/she will find out that he/she has made a bad mistake
regarding the surgery.
If a priest goes through sexual reassignment surgery, I think
under canon law that he will still be a priest because the
Catholic church does not recognize sexual reassignment surgery
as a change in gender. This is kind of odd. when you have to
conclude that perhaps the only kind of woman priest the Catholic
church could accept would be what they would consider as a man
simulating the female gender through surgery.
Peace be with you!
#Post#: 12442--------------------------------------------------
Re: Once a priest, always a priest
By: HOLLAND Date: June 27, 2016, 1:30 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Justaname link=topic=1097.msg12410#msg12410
date=1466612839]
The world is so mixed up and confused. My take is , they can
all do what they like...but NOT surgery on Canadian Health
Care!!
All the lines are so blurred now, nothing is what it seems any
more. Our grandkids and great grandkids will think this is all
NORMAL, as this mess will be what they were born into!!!!
The World is like Alice in Wonderland. Up is down and down is
up.
[/quote]
I think that they will get used to it, Justaname. Gender roles
and issues and intersex babies that the development of DNA
research will blur the lines even more over time. With DNA gene
modification and the creation of new species and the increased
viewing of the human species as a being that is subject to
modification, mutation and change, a being that is mallable, to
be shaped by how the species' wants it to be. It will be
frightening, though, as humankind takes up the role of the
creator in respect to itself in respect to technology; that will
be sobering.
This issue about sex change is only the tip of the incoming
iceberg.
Peace be with you!
#Post#: 12449--------------------------------------------------
Re: Once a priest, always a priest
By: Kerry Date: June 28, 2016, 1:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=HOLLAND link=topic=1097.msg12441#msg12441
date=1467051687]
Agreed, Kerry. Intersex babies are brought up to illustrate
that gender identification is not based upon genitilia but upon
mental activity in conjunction or apart from it. [/quote]I may
be a bit dim here; but I still don't get it. The word "gender"
used this way in a novelty. The word used to refer to
grammar: masculine, feminine and neuter. The idea that gender
as something existing in people's heads is a new idea.
There are cultures, to be sure, where people have identified
with the opposite sex. Indeed some girls are reared as boys in
some parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan. Naturally this causes
them some problems adjusting when they hit puberty and then are
expected to dress and act like women.
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_posh
Some Indian tribes had men who lived as women their whole lives
-- even marrying men. But I still don't get your point.
[quote]I can understand your skepticism but gender identity
seems to not be a matter of human decision at all but a matter
of realization, an awakening to a sense of sexual identity. The
inner conflict regarding that identity is what leads many to
make the gender reassignment surgery to try to make their
genitilia to conform to their inner identity as such. The
confusion about how to relate to others and the need to conform
to conventional sexual roles is behind the surgery. [/quote]
What I see is that how a person thinks about himself or herself
and how others think about him or her can sometimes cause
trouble.
[quote] ;D But gender identity and an identification of being
another separate kind of being are too different things so the
analogy fails. [/quote]The statement that people should be
allowed to use whatever bathroom they feel comfortable in lies
behind my analogy. If that statement is true, then people who
identify as animals should be allowed to act like animals.
My belief is that people should use the bathroom which will
cause the least problems for others. I think most transgender
people already do that. If you have the genitals of one sex,
you shouldn't be going into bathrooms, lockerrooms or showers
of the sex your body doesn't resemble, Saying "But I feel this
way" really doesn't cut it with me. I repeat I think most
transgender people do want to use the bathrooms which will cause
the least amount of problems.
[quote]I think, Kerry, why so many are skeptical about all this
is the fact that there are not only transgender people but
trigender people. Transgender people identify themselves as
having a sexual identity apart or different from their
genitilia. [/quote]
People can imagine almost anything; but it doesn't make it so.
If you feel like a girl and want to be a girl, you are still a
boy if you have the genitals of a boy. That's a simple fact
that wishful thinking doesn't change.
[quote]Trigender people can experience sexual identity that
includes both the genders and some or all of the sexual
orientations of those genders. Surgery is affected on the
former to correct or resolve the condition; surgery is useless
for trigender persons since they already have in place the
genitilia for one of those genders. I would suggest that you be
patient with your nephew/niece. Hopefully he/she has properly
recognized himself/herself as properly transgender and not
trigender or he/she will find out that he/she has made a bad
mistake regarding the surgery.[/quote]I don't care how people
think about themselves -- that's fine with me. They are free to
think however they want. The line I draw is when someone
becomes unrealistic. If a man wants to have an operation and
look like a woman, okay do it -- but until he gets the operation
and looks like a woman, the fact is he's a man. To me, that's
as simple as an obese person having a fantasy about being thin.
If someone wants to be thin, by all means do something about it.
Don't sit around and think that fantasying about it is going to
make it true -- there is no point is saying, "I am a thin person
trapped in a fat body."
[quote]If a priest goes through sexual reassignment surgery, I
think under canon law that he will still be a priest because the
Catholic church does not recognize sexual reassignment surgery
as a change in gender. This is kind of odd. when you have to
conclude that perhaps the only kind of woman priest the Catholic
church could accept would be what they would consider as a man
simulating the female gender through surgery.[/quote]I think
they'd have to consider such a person as remaining a man.
*****************************************************
DIR Next Page