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#Post#: 12254--------------------------------------------------
Peter, Paul and Mary
DIR By: Kerry
Date: May 30, 2016, 5:14 am
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I've been singing this song lately. Not sure why it keeps
coming to mind.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OCnHNk2Hac
I was excited when I heard Peter, Paul and Mary were coming to
Philadelphia when I lived there going to college; but the
concert got canceled.
I've been singing this song too.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGpkS7LhKl8
#Post#: 12255--------------------------------------------------
Re: Peter, Paul and Mary
DIR By: coldwar
Date: May 30, 2016, 6:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Ahh the lost art of great song writing! Don't Think Twice (Bob
Dylan) is my go to song for practising finger-picking, which for
me is 10 times harder than it should be - if I'm playing live, I
have to use a flat pick. Early Morning Rain (Gordon Lightfoot)
is an awesome "down and out" song, and PP&M's interpretation of
it here is wonderful. So often, somebody will do a song much
better than the one who wrote it, and that was always the
strength of PP&M. In the case of Lightfoot, IMHO, his songs were
always done better by everybodybody else. If you've ever heard
Lightfoot being interviewed, his speaking voice is totally
different than his singing voice, the latter simply sounds
stupid - I don't know why he would change his voice so much when
singing. Same could be said about Dylan - in fact, his change of
voice, as well as the stunts he would pull sometimes in
performance often just left me scratching my head. But on one
album of mostly weak songs, "Nashville Skyline", Dylan proved
once and for all he could really sing well... Lightfoot never
proved this, but all he really had to do is simply sing more in
the tone of his speaking voice, and it would've been great.
Check this out - very young Lightfoot singing the same song in
his well known (dumb) singing voice, in an interview with a very
old Lightfoot where he briefly breaks into song in his speaking
voice. He also speaks of his faith in God, which saved him in
more ways than one.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQv1IN0UABc
#Post#: 12257--------------------------------------------------
Re: Peter, Paul and Mary
DIR By: Kerry
Date: May 30, 2016, 3:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Interesting interview with Lightfoot. When looking for a
version of the song, I ran across Lightfoot's but I think you're
right about him. His genius was more writing. Perhaps he got
nervous performing? Don't know.
About the guitar picking? Is Johnny Cash doing his own guitar
here? I'm guessing so. It sounds a lot like his other songs.
He's strumming chords instead of doing the picking. And it
sounds to me as if he got some of the chords wrong -- or
different. I love Johnny Cash not with this song. When it
started, I thought I had the wrong song. I thought he was going
to break into Ring of Fire. His version puts me on edge --
perhaps because it's not what I expected -- but I think he did
take too many liberties with the song including the lyrics.
It left me wondering how good a guitar player he was.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoyPKKuCG7A
I had the same uneasy feeling listening to Waylon Jennings.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wC-KLsDNhq0
When Dylan is playing it, I hear a fast series of notes, one at
a time. He's not playing chords explicitly. Your mind has
to tell you where the chords change; and when I hear Cash and
Jennings doing it, I think they got the chords wrong. It's
not how I heard the chords anyway when Dylan was doing it.
Peter, Paul and Mary did the song a little differently of
course; but they seemed to me to get the chords right.
Too unfortunate the old man, the Vietnam vet, at Dominos is off
work sick. He teaches guitar. I could ask him what he thinks
about all this. Going off topic, we were talking about metal
music once when the music at Dominos had some piece on that I
had not been hearing since I block it out a lot. He said he
hated metal. He agreed with me about people who play loud all
the time. I said I bought a guy an electric guitar once for
his birthday since he lost his; and I advised him to learn to
play quiet and make it sound good quiet at first. Then if he
wanted to get loud, fine. I suspect some people play loud all
the time because they don't know how to play quiet and are
trying to hide the fact by being loud. And these two versions
of Don't Think Twice leave me wondering if the musicians could
play all the notes instead of doing chords -- I rather think
not. It reminds me of how Elton John plays the piano!
#Post#: 12258--------------------------------------------------
Re: Peter, Paul and Mary
DIR By: Kerry
Date: May 30, 2016, 4:00 pm
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Another song about going away. . . .
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVEATF7VNTk
#Post#: 12260--------------------------------------------------
Re: Peter, Paul and Mary
DIR By: coldwar
Date: May 30, 2016, 6:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Cash was never known for his guitar playing- with him it was the
voice, and some extremely clever lyrics and melodies on tunes he
wrote himself. I think what you're hearing is stylistic
differences - Cash and Jennings were very similar here and the
chords are basically correct, but missing the modifications you
get from finger-picking, with a pure Country beat and
alternating bass flat-picking. It sounds like Cash had his usual
electric guitar player, Luther Perkins, in the background, doing
that alternate "chicken -pickin'" bass line while Cash just
strummed the full chords. Jennings was doing it all himself on
electric guitar, but in a very similar style. With that
particular gang, Willie Nelson was the guitar genius.
Dylan was doing finger-picking style folk on his own version of
his song, with a descending, not alternating, bass line - same
thing PP&M were doing. When you do this, it's much more like
classical guitar - each individual note is indeed picked, the
chords become modified, and it's much more intricate. You can
see it happening this way in the PP&M video, and note how they
played classical guitars, not the big "strummers". I saw Dylan
live in the early '90's, and it was only then I saw how great he
actually is on guitar - he played lead guitar on all the songs,
which totally surprised me.
"Leavin' on a Jet Plane" - pure bliss - love it!
Metal music - aside from the very earliest, like Led Zeppelin
and Black Sabbath, it's not for me. It's annoying - it's based
on "the devil's interval" - this guy explains that very well:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7zrS0Y-JMA
There's a young lad in the band I play in (at the prison) he's
younger than my own kids I think - he's totally into the later
versions of metal, but man does he know his stuff! In metal,
there are usually two things going on - the "riff" based on this
"flatted fifth" stuff, screaming, incomprehensible vocals and
the high, piercing and extremely intense/rapid lead guitar
playing. Well, this kid can keep up with the best of them in
that Genre, and I have to admire him for it, even though I hate
the music.
Music is so powerful isn't it? My taste is based in the 60's and
early 70's - that was the era of truly great song writing. I
wonder if it was the drugs or was something else going on back
then?
#Post#: 12261--------------------------------------------------
Re: Peter, Paul and Mary
DIR By: Kerry
Date: May 31, 2016, 12:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
This is interesting -- I found that Merle Haggart did that
song with Willie Nelson. I like to hear how different people
do the same song. The chords sound "right" to me.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FPqpR0H_Pg
The augmented fifth or tritone isn't that bad if it gets
resolved properly. I forget when it became "permissible" in
European music.
I read somewhere once that a study was done where people were
subjected to music with unresolved tritones; and most of them
began to feel uneasy although they couldn't tell why. A
seventh chord is powerful because of that tritone and how it can
be resolved by moving a half-step up with one note and down a
half-step with the other. The dissonance becomes made sense
of; and it propels the music forward.
--- Quote ---
> My taste is based in the 60's and early 70's - that was the
era of truly great song writing. I wonder if it was the drugs or
was something else going on back then?
--- End Quote ---
Let me think about that. I don't think it was the drugs.
There often was a message in some of the songs for one thing.
Take this song for example. It's a gentle enough song in one
way; but it makes you think and it's a kind of protest or
prayer.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld6fAO4idaI
#Post#: 12262--------------------------------------------------
Re: Peter, Paul and Mary
DIR By: Kerry
Date: May 31, 2016, 5:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: coldwar link ---
>
> Cash was never known for his guitar playing- with him it was
the voice, and some extremely clever lyrics and melodies on
tunes he wrote himself.
--- End Quote ---
Back with more thoughts. It also helped that he married into
the Carter family. His personality was an asset too.
--- Quote ---
> I think what you're hearing is stylistic differences - Cash
and Jennings were very similar here and the chords are basically
correct, but missing the modifications you get from
finger-picking, with a pure Country beat and alternating bass
flat-picking.
--- End Quote ---
I'm not that good at discerning chords, to be honest; but I
remain unconvinced that Cash had the same chords. And I tried
to research it -- and who knows if the people who made these
charts had them right? I am fairly confident that the Bob Dylan
version got put down right here -- I was singing the lyrics and
trying to imagine where the chords changes were -- and it seems
right to me.
HTML http://www.e-chords.com/chords/bob-dylan/dont-think-twice
Then I found where someone put down the chords Cash used -- but
I am not sure they got them right. The guy himself said he
wasn't sure.
HTML http://chordstabslyrics.com/chords/johnny-cash/don-t-think-twice-it-s-alright/1508099
But you're still right basically since part of my objection was
how the series of single notes got lost with the strumming. In
my mind, part of the charm of the song is how the single notes
keep coming and coming while the singer is going at a different
pace.
--- Quote ---
> Dylan was doing finger-picking style folk on his own version
of his song, with a descending, not alternating, bass line -
same thing PP&M were doing. When you do this, it's much more
like classical guitar - each individual note is indeed picked,
the chords become modified, and it's much more intricate. You
can see it happening this way in the PP&M video, and note how
they played classical guitars, not the big "strummers". I saw
Dylan live in the early '90's, and it was only then I saw how
great he actually is on guitar - he played lead guitar on all
the songs, which totally surprised me.
--- End Quote ---
I couldn't see it -- but then I'm not that well acquainted with
guitars. I can tell though that Dylan knows more than one way
to make a chord, giving him more flexibility in his bass line.
I was talking to the Vietnam vet about this and said
offhandedly that someone should know more than one way to do a
chord, maybe three or four; and he said maybe thirty! I guess
it would depend on what came before and what was coming after?
--- Quote ---
> "Leavin' on a Jet Plane" - pure bliss - love it!
--- End Quote ---
Glad you liked it.
--- Quote ---
> There's a young lad in the band I play in (at the prison) he's
younger than my own kids I think - he's totally into the later
versions of metal, but man does he know his stuff! In metal,
there are usually two things going on - the "riff" based on this
"flatted fifth" stuff, screaming, incomprehensible vocals and
the high, piercing and extremely intense/rapid lead guitar
playing. Well, this kid can keep up with the best of them in
that Genre, and I have to admire him for it, even though I hate
the music.
--- End Quote ---
I say if the dissonances aren't resolved, it's not music. It's
something else, but it's not music as I define the word.
--- Quote ---
> Music is so powerful isn't it? My taste is based in the 60's
and early 70's - that was the era of truly great song writing. I
wonder if it was the drugs or was something else going on back
then?
--- End Quote ---
That's when my tastes kicked in. As a child, I heard the pop
music my sisters listened too and it didn't do that much for me.
Then I discovered classical music and folk music -- and I was
lucky enough to be in a part of Pennsylvania where we could pick
up stations from New York City.
What passes for music today isn't that impressive if you ask me.
NPR now seems to be using a lot of cheap synthesized music
that appears to be computer generated and that often repeats
itself without variation. It's childish stuff. I find it so
annoying I turn the radio down or off. And modern "classical"
music is no longer classical but something monstrous -- some of
it is every bit as annoying as some metal stuff. And some of
the popular singers today sound like wounded animals to me.
That's fine for a song or two, but it gets old if that's all
they can do.
-------
Oh, did you notice that Jennings changed "we" to "you" -- saying
"you never did much talkin' anyway"? I really objected to
that. I can be so picky, I know. I don't mind people changing
words here and there when it adds their style to it -- but that
change conflicted with the whole thrust of the song to me. I
thought Dylan was saying, really, it was okay even if he was
giving up and leaving. When he said "we", that meant to me he
was taking part of the blame too for not talking much or
wondering if maybe it was partly his fault. Saying "you" sounds
like an accusation, trying to lay a guilt trip.
#Post#: 12263--------------------------------------------------
Re: Peter, Paul and Mary
DIR By: coldwar
Date: May 31, 2016, 7:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Yes, the Chords given on the first (Dylan's) link are the ones I
use - but I'll say "almost" because of two things that happen
when the chords are finger-picked instead of simply strummed.
First, finger-picking turns chords into arpeggios - simply
meaning the notes are plucked individually and allowed to ring
through, instead of all the notes sounding at once as with Cash
and Jennings' simple strumming. Second, (and you can see this
clearly in PP&M when the camera zooms in on Paul's right hand -
watch his thumb especially), there's a descending bass line that
modifies some of the chords; so for example in the first line,
instead of just plain "C", he ends up with
C---C/B---Am7---Am7/G, then onto the Am---G. Cash and Jennings
leave all this out completely, but chord-wise, it's still
"correct" to Dylan's original. Most people begin guitar with
simple chord strumming, and so would first adapt to Cash's
version, but they really should press on to learn how to
separate out the bass lines and turn chords to arpeggios. I
don't think Cash ever moved on with his guitar playing - he
didn't have to with all the studio session cats playing behind
him, and his other positive traits that made him a star. Here's
his true genius at work:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_21p14TAXM
The lyrics to this, and other Cash tunes are simply fantastic -
the mind's eye gets turned on, and you can "see" what he's
singing about. Also, although this song just involves his simple
strumming, with Luther Perkins doing the "chicken-pickin'"
electric guitar work, the song has a real interesting "hook"
between the verses: although it's being played in key of E
Major, he throws in a G-major chord, (which is dissonant to E)
every time he lifts his guitar up to his chin and smirks, giving
it even more visual emphasis, but quickly resolves back to E. I
love songs with "hooks" like that.
"What passes for music today isn't that impressive if you ask
me."
Same here. Many things are missing. In the case of "Hip Hop"
(Rap), the music takes a back seat to lyrics and beat... if the
music is even there at all.. no music = not music. Pop (like
Lady GaGa, Miley Cyrus) is all about the video and seductive
imagery; the music and lyrics are extremely lame, and the whole
thing is geared to dumbing people down. And metal is just always
loud, always dissonant, always overdriven, even though the
players may display bursts of great talent, they're wasting
their talent on noise.
But it's not all bad - some are doing great things - here's a
guy from Montreal who calls himself "Petunia" whose songs have
all kinds of interesting things going on. But you'll notice he
is doing all the good stuff by reaching back into the past - his
stage persona is almost like Johnny Cash or Hank Williams;
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEhkrXiofRU
... and he's getting more and more creative and original. I'd
love to read what your thoughts are on this one:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp56C2w2eSk
"Saying "you" sounds like an accusation, trying to lay a guilt
trip" - maybe his true personality simply slipped out... he was
raised as a hell-fire Christian, then flip-flopped to being
known as "the Outlaw".
#Post#: 12269--------------------------------------------------
Re: Peter, Paul and Mary
DIR By: HOLLAND
Date: May 31, 2016, 6:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
^^^This is an interesting thread.
I have appreciated the work of Peter, Paul and Mary; and, like
many people, I was first introduced to folk music through them.
Back in the early 1960s, I was interested primarily in classical
music. That was because I was mistrustful of the Beatles and
the British Invasion of popular music. I thought that
nonconformity did not involve commonly accepted values regarding
music. As I matured, I went from classical music to an
acceptance of folk music to an acceptance of popular music. I
learned, early on, the connection that popular music had with
all the other musical forms, especially the blues.
I've long appreciated Gordon Lightfoot. I particularly like the
songs: Early Morning Rain, If You Could Read My Mind, Alberta
Bound, Minstral Of The Dawn, For Loving Me/Did She Mention My
Name?, and that essentially Canadian song: Canadian Railway
Trilogy.
I cannot follow regarding guitar chords discussed in this thread
but find it interesting in what I can understand. I'm inclined
to think that his guitar work is compatible with his singing and
lyrics and has done quite well. He is not to be compared to Bob
Dylan or Roger Miller who wrote many of their own songs, but
rather to Johnny Cash who sang the many songs other people
wrote.
#Post#: 12272--------------------------------------------------
Re: Peter, Paul and Mary
DIR By: Kerry
Date: May 31, 2016, 8:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: coldwar link ---
>
> Yes, the Chords given on the first (Dylan's) link are the ones
I use - but I'll say "almost" because of two things that happen
when the chords are finger-picked instead of simply strummed.
First, finger-picking turns chords into arpeggios - simply
meaning the notes are plucked individually and allowed to ring
through, instead of all the notes sounding at once as with Cash
and Jennings' simple strumming. Second, (and you can see this
clearly in PP&M when the camera zooms in on Paul's right hand -
watch his thumb especially), there's a descending bass line that
modifies some of the chords; so for example in the first line,
instead of just plain "C", he ends up with
C---C/B---Am7---Am7/G, then onto the Am---G. Cash and Jennings
leave all this out completely, but chord-wise, it's still
"correct" to Dylan's original.
--- End Quote ---
I didn't try to see it again since I doubt I could see it anyway
-- I never learned the guitar and can't identify what's going on
by seeing their fingers. But let me ask a question. He has
a C-major chord with C, E, and G -- so what happens after he
changes the to a B? Does he play the E and G again after
playing the B, or is the B the last note hit before chord
change, like a grace note Is he playing a B-major chord or only
a B before hitting the A in the A-minor chord? That kind of
note, like leading tones, is great for producing a feeling of
movement. The "B" consciously or unconsciously feels "out of
place" and the mind wants it resolved; and when the A-minor
chord arrives, everything sounds right again and sensible --
coherent.
--- Quote ---
> Most people begin guitar with simple chord strumming, and so
would first adapt to Cash's version, but they really should
press on to learn how to separate out the bass lines and turn
chords to arpeggios.
--- End Quote ---
Working to improve their abilities, yes. That gives them more
options.
--- Quote ---
> I don't think Cash ever moved on with his guitar playing - he
didn't have to with all the studio session cats playing behind
him, and his other positive traits that made him a star.
--- End Quote ---
Success does not usually inspire more work. And producers too
often hate it when artists do something different. Producers
want "hits" so they say, "Can't we have another song like the
last one?"
Here's his true genius at work:
--- Quote ---
> The lyrics to this, and other Cash tunes are simply fantastic
- the mind's eye gets turned on, and you can "see" what he's
singing about. Also, although this song just involves his simple
strumming, with Luther Perkins doing the "chicken-pickin'"
electric guitar work, the song has a real interesting "hook"
between the verses: although it's being played in key of E
Major, he throws in a G-major chord, (which is dissonant to E)
every time he lifts his guitar up to his chin and smirks, giving
it even more visual emphasis, but quickly resolves back to E. I
love songs with "hooks" like that.
--- End Quote ---
Ha, I find that amusing too although I didn't pick up on what he
was doing. Too bad he had to resolve it so fast to get back to
the song so Cash didn't thrown for a loop. I've written music
which has unexpected chord progressions like that, but at a
slower pace. I'd probably end a line on E-major, have a pause,
hit the G-major and then go with A-major. It might sound
better though to end the line with E major, pause, then F-major,
G-major and then A-major. I'd have to tinker around with it
-- I can't hear it in my head. Doing a G-major chord, then a
G7 might work too with B being the bass note -- with the devil's
notes being F and B -- then flashing back on track with a B7
chord again with B as the bass note. As I say, I don't know if
those would work. I'd have to tinker -- and it might also have
to do with the emotional quality I wanted to try to convey.
"What passes for music today isn't that impressive if you ask
me."
--- Quote ---
> Same here. Many things are missing. In the case of "Hip Hop"
(Rap), the music takes a back seat to lyrics and beat... if the
music is even there at all.. no music = not music.
--- End Quote ---
Music involves variations, I think. It's the same thing in one
way, but it's another thing in another way. To me, this says
something about God and men. We are all in the image and
likeness of God -- but we're also all different. Rap and Hip
Hop are the same notes over and over again, thus for me, it is
something but it's not what I can call music.
--- Quote ---
> Pop (like Lady GaGa, Miley Cyrus) is all about the video and
seductive imagery; the music and lyrics are extremely lame, and
the whole thing is geared to dumbing people down.
--- End Quote ---
how can people take the seductive imagery seriously when it is
so obviously a ploy, a put-on, unreal? I find Lady GaGa
absurd. Miley Cyrus is absurd sometimes too -- and pathetic
at other times.
--- Quote ---
> And metal is just always loud, always dissonant, always
overdriven, even though the players may display bursts of great
talent, they're wasting their talent on noise.
--- End Quote ---
My guess is they're expending a lot of kundalini energy. I
see this as a trick of the Dark Side in many cases -- the Dark
Side seems to be attracted to gifted people so it can divert
their gifts which could produce things of great beauty and
inspiration into other things. Take someone like Marilyn
Manson. He is a brilliant person with a first-class mind.
Wasted talent.
--- Quote ---
> But it's not all bad - some are doing great things - here's a
guy from Montreal who calls himself "Petunia" whose songs have
all kinds of interesting things going on. But you'll notice he
is doing all the good stuff by reaching back into the past - his
stage persona is almost like Johnny Cash or Hank Williams;
>
>
> ... and he's getting more and more creative and original. I'd
love to read what your thoughts are on this one:
--- End Quote ---
Was he satirizing false religion? That was the impression I got
from it.
--- Quote ---
> "Saying "you" sounds like an accusation, trying to lay a guilt
trip" - maybe his true personality simply slipped out... he was
raised as a hell-fire Christian, then flip-flopped to being
known as "the Outlaw".
--- End Quote ---
I thought something like that.
I found another version of "Don't Think Twice." I loved it.
I've been out of touch lately and had never heard of Marcus
Mumford or Justin Young. Mumford's guitar playing gave me
goosebumps. (When music is really good, I may get goosebumps.
It almost brought tears to my eyes.) I think they changed a
few things in the music here and there; but that's okay. It
also struck me how sad he and Justin Young looked. They both
looked authentically depressed, not a put-on.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImV4Q3J8k6M
Mumford also changed the "we" to "you." And he sounded a
little angry when he sang "time." ??? Things that make me
scratch my head!
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