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#Post#: 12138--------------------------------------------------
Is the ability to love others a "gift" from God?
By: Kerry Date: May 8, 2016, 2:57 am
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I ask because I ran into this question again just tonight
browsing the internet -- it's on another forum and the rules
here forbid saying where it is, and perhaps it doesn't matter
where it is. (I can send you a link in a PM if you want to
know.) The poster mentions praying for the "gift of love." I
can't fathom it.
I believe God gave us all the ability to love others. In that
way, you could call it a gift the way you can call life itself a
gift; and then it's our choice if we love or not. I can think
of no place in the Bible that says the ability to love others is
a gift God gives us -- meaning if God didn't give us that gift,
then we can't love others. The list of of the "gifts of the
Spirit" do not include charity or love. I think that's right.
Even people who lack the Holy Spirit can choose to love if they
want to. If God is Love and if we are all made in His image
and likeness, that means to me we all also have the potential to
love.
So if I am right, where does this idea of the ability to love
others being a gift from God come from? Everyone already has
this ability. I don't see the need to pray for a gift when we
already can love if we so choose. It seems to me that someone
who is thinking like this may be excusing his own lack of
expressing love and praying for God to do something about it.
Or does the person who thinks like this have an erroneous idea
about what he himself is and thus also about what God is too?
I can think of everything else being gifts from God -- down to
the air we breath even and the sun that shines -- and our minds,
bodies and souls. Artistic talents are gifts from God, I
think. Everything we can do is the result of God giving us
the ability to do it; and if He doesn't give us a particular
gift, there's nothing we do about it unless He gives it to us.
Everything except love -- we can all do that. Why pray for it
then? I don't understand.
#Post#: 12139--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the ability to love others a "gift" from God?
By: paralambano Date: May 8, 2016, 6:46 am
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People think it's a gift when they're feeling negative or empty.
This ability is always there awaiting uncovering.
It takes work to reject lies and affirm truth.
We have always been the perfect reflection of God.
He doesn't make Pintos. It only seems that He does.
Every kingdom including heaven divided falls.
Either make the whole tree rotten and its fruit bad or make it
good and its fruit good.
What say you?
I say it is impossible for a good and perfect tree as Jesus
claimed Love to be to
to produce actual failures. This goes against rev. We are
children of a lesser God if this is so
We might as well discard it all without hope if it's so. I hold
and defend with all my heart, soul, mind and might the absolute
invincibility, perfection, omnipresence and all-power of Love.
Jesus said be perfect as God is perfect. We can be none
other actually.
Yes, it has all to do as to what we know or believe about God.
. . . .
para . . . .
#Post#: 12141--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the ability to love others a "gift" from God?
By: Justaname Date: May 8, 2016, 11:28 pm
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[size=14pt]I just got here, but really off to bed. So the usual
fuzzy late night brain thing going on.
I agree Kerry, God did not give us a 'gift of love'..He just
said, LOVE.
On the flip side it is something which is never really discussed
( without people getting annoyed) Not many are honest but just
trot out platitudes.
Did Jesus love everybody? Did He love them when He tipped up
the money lenders tables?
I have a good friend of many years...I really like her a lot, I
can't say that I "love" her.
I can honestly say I do not love everyone. Some people irritate
me. Many will say- " I love everyone, but I don't like
everyone." But I don't love everybody, I think those people of
just using a religious cop out.
Then we come down the Jesus and Peter...lovest thou Me. And
Peter saying, "Yes I like you."
It is a weighty matter...too deep for me at 10.30pm!!
LOL/size]
#Post#: 12142--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the ability to love others a "gift" from God?
By: HOLLAND Date: May 9, 2016, 9:48 pm
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=1083.msg12138#msg12138
date=1462694233]
I ask because I ran into this question again just tonight
browsing the internet -- it's on another forum and the rules
here forbid saying where it is, and perhaps it doesn't matter
where it is. (I can send you a link in a PM if you want to
know.) The poster mentions praying for the "gift of love." I
can't fathom it.
I believe God gave us all the ability to love others. In that
way, you could call it a gift the way you can call life itself a
gift; and then it's our choice if we love or not. I can think
of no place in the Bible that says the ability to love others is
a gift God gives us -- meaning if God didn't give us that gift,
then we can't love others. The list of of the "gifts of the
Spirit" do not include charity or love. I think that's right.
Even people who lack the Holy Spirit can choose to love if they
want to. If God is Love and if we are all made in His image
and likeness, that means to me we all also have the potential to
love.
So if I am right, where does this idea of the ability to love
others being a gift from God come from? Everyone already has
this ability. I don't see the need to pray for a gift when we
already can love if we so choose. It seems to me that someone
who is thinking like this may be excusing his own lack of
expressing love and praying for God to do something about it.
Or does the person who thinks like this have an erroneous idea
about what he himself is and thus also about what God is too?
I can think of everything else being gifts from God -- down to
the air we breath even and the sun that shines -- and our minds,
bodies and souls. Artistic talents are gifts from God, I
think. Everything we can do is the result of God giving us
the ability to do it; and if He doesn't give us a particular
gift, there's nothing we do about it unless He gives it to us.
Everything except love -- we can all do that. Why pray for it
then? I don't understand.
[/quote]
I wonder, Kerry, if the person in that other web site is
thinking about the "gift of love" is actually a speaking of
shared love, a mutuality that is a gift from God.
I would agree with you that to love is already something that is
given to us. We can choose to love another though it may not be
reciprocated or is not considered rational by others or by the
person being loved. I wonder if the poster on that other web
site is angry or disappointed in the disappointment of love that
does not become shared. This love, though it is unshared, can
become a gift from God if it is taken rightly. We grow in the
meaning of love. It makes us to become what we are to be in
God's love. We love and we pray, but love's meaning would seem
to occur in the act of love, and that prayer is merely the
voicing of the petition and thankfulness to God concerning the
meaning of that love.
I agree with your puzzlement at what the person had posted on
that web site regarding the "gift of love".
Peace be with you!
#Post#: 12143--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the ability to love others a "gift" from God?
By: Kerry Date: May 10, 2016, 5:53 am
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[quote author=paralambano link=topic=1083.msg12139#msg12139
date=1462707999]
People think it's a gift when they're feeling negative or empty.
This ability is always there awaiting uncovering.[/quote]
I think it's connected to at least four parables: The treasure
in the field, the pearl of great price, the lost coin, and the
mustard seed.
[quote]It takes work to reject lies and affirm truth.
We have always been the perfect reflection of God.
He doesn't make Pintos. It only seems that He does.
Every kingdom including heaven divided falls.
Either make the whole tree rotten and its fruit bad or make it
good and its fruit good.
What say you?[/quote]
Thus the need to prune off the "bad" branches and to preserve
and encourage what is good and productive. I think this
explains Moses' statement that "man is a tree."
Deuteronomy 20:19 When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in
making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the
trees thereof by forcing an axe against them: for thou mayest
eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for [s]the tree
of the field is man's life[/s]<man is a tree of the field) to
employ them in the siege:
20 Only the trees which thou knowest that they be not trees for
meat, thou shalt destroy and cut them down; and thou shalt build
bulwarks against the city that maketh war with thee, until it be
subdued.
A parallel is being made between the wise way to conduct a war
and the wise way to deal with ourselves in the ways we are like
trees -- and I'd say this world does resemble a battle field
with the strange requirement that we subdue ourselves.
Proverbs 16:32 He that is slow to anger is better than the
mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a
city.
[quote]I say it is impossible for a good and perfect tree as
Jesus claimed Love to be to
to produce actual failures. This goes against rev. We are
children of a lesser God if this is so[/quote]
Psalm 91 comes to mind. Whatever the appearances are and
whatever our imaginations may tell us is true, we should keep
in mind the truth about ourselves which is what tells us we can
rely completely on God.
Psalm 91:1He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High
shall abide under the shadow <tsel> of the Almighty.
Surely this tsel or "shadow" has something to do with how we
were made when Genesis 1:26 reads tselem or "image."
[quote]We might as well discard it all without hope if it's so.
I hold and defend with all my heart, soul, mind and might the
absolute invincibility, perfection, omnipresence and all-power
of Love.[/quote]
And if you should fall, there is nothing to fear: The angels
will bear you up. Back to Psalm 91:
9 Because thou hast made the Lord, which is my refuge, even the
most High, thy habitation;
10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague
come nigh thy dwelling.
11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee
in all thy ways.
12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy
foot against a stone.
[quote]Jesus said be perfect as God is perfect. We can be none
other actually.
Yes, it has all to do as to what we know or believe about God.
. . . .[/quote]
In a way that often seems strange to me, the whole world
already looks perfect -- or on its way to it. The whole earth
sometimes reminds me of a grape growing and maturing, ripening
on a vine. It may seem something is wrong, but there's not
really.
#Post#: 12144--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the ability to love others a "gift" from God?
By: Kerry Date: May 10, 2016, 6:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Justaname link=topic=1083.msg12141#msg12141
date=1462768117]
I just got here, but really off to bed. So the usual fuzzy late
night brain thing going on.
I agree Kerry, God did not give us a 'gift of love'..He just
said, LOVE.[/quote]
Yes, and I'd say God does not ask the impossible from us.
[quote]On the flip side it is something which is never really
discussed ( without people getting annoyed) Not many are honest
but just trot out platitudes.
Did Jesus love everybody? Did He love them when He tipped up
the money lenders tables?[/quote]
I think that was a loving thing to do. Real love sometimes
ruffles some feathers. Real love requires sometimes that a
foot be amputated. It may seem kinder to give someone with a
gangrene in his foot pain pills and sympathy -- but is that
really loving when the gangrene could spread and maybe kill him?
[quote]I have a good friend of many years...I really like her a
lot, I can't say that I "love" her. [/quote]That may depend on
how we define love. I don't think love always means lots of
warm cuddly feelings. I think it does mean we wish people the
best and we act in ways that don't create problems for them that
they don't need.
Does love your neighbour as yourself mean swapping spouses from
time to time? Does it mean a man should love his neighbor's
wife the way he loves his own? Of course not. I think it
means, "If you want to be happy and secure in your own marriage,
don't undermine your neighbor's." So I don't see the warm
cuddly feelings as being the only form of love -- sometimes true
love means keeping those warm cuddly feelings in check if they
would damage other people or ourselves.
You know how young girls can get into predicaments by saying,
"But I love him." The guy often doesn't care about her very
much at all; but the young girl thinks it must be real love if
she has such wonderful feelings.
[quote]I can honestly say I do not love everyone. Some people
irritate me. Many will say- " I love everyone, but I don't like
everyone." But I don't love everybody, I think those people of
just using a religious cop out.[/quote]
I don't know what they mean when they say that.
I think it's natural to be irritated by some people. If people
are irritating, you'd be a little crazy to be making merry about
it. When people irritate me, I take that as a signal it's
better not to be around them if I can help it.
That may sound selfish; but shouldn't irritating people learn
from life? If people avoid them, maybe they'll learn to stop
being so irritating. We read in the Bible that God avoids some
people; and God is love. Yes, I think sometimes the truly
loving thing to do is to let people alone -- and when we feel
irritated, sometimes it might be us and sometimes it might be
them. I think it's wrong to be too kind to people when they
are misbehaving. We see parents rearing children like that
sometimes; and the poor children grow up as monsters, unprepared
for the world when mommy and daddy die and can't shelter them
anymore. Some parents that do that are afraid of disciplining
their children -- because they want the "love" and "approval" of
their children.
Is that love? Is it love to want the love and approval of
others so much that we're willing to play favorites and to
excuse bad behavior in others? I used to be like that. I could
excuse and tolerate almost anything . . . if I thought I could
get others to like me by doing it. One day, I saw I was being
selfish -- and had fooled myself into thinking I was so patient,
kind, tolerant and forgiving. No, I was just being selfish and
insecure. Those people could have done better; but I was
telling them it was okay if they were second or third rate.
And that also made me feel good about myself because I could
feel superior to them.
#Post#: 12145--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the ability to love others a "gift" from God?
By: Kerry Date: May 10, 2016, 6:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=HOLLAND link=topic=1083.msg12142#msg12142
date=1462848518]
I wonder, Kerry, if the person in that other web site is
thinking about the "gift of love" is actually a speaking of
shared love, a mutuality that is a gift from God.[/quote]Hard to
say. He (if it is a man) also wrote that he loved Jesus more
than anyone else; and that left me scratching my head over what
he meant.
[quote]I would agree with you that to love is already something
that is given to us. We can choose to love another though it
may not be reciprocated or is not considered rational by others
or by the person being loved. [/quote]
People sometimes talk about the "age of accountability" as if
children aren't making decisions that may impact them the rest
of their lives. I believe children are born, most children
anyway, with a nature that is loving. What happens if a child
is expressing that loving nature and gets malevolence back?
Perhaps the most dangerous decision a child can make is to say
to himself, "I was wrong to care about that person. I won't
love others unless I am sure they love me first."
[quote]I wonder if the poster on that other web site is angry or
disappointed in the disappointment of love that does not become
shared.[/quote]I wondered the same thing.[quote] This love,
though it is unshared, can become a gift from God if it is taken
rightly. We grow in the meaning of love. It makes us to become
what we are to be in God's love. We love and we pray, but
love's meaning would seem to occur in the act of love, and that
prayer is merely the voicing of the petition and thankfulness to
God concerning the meaning of that love.[/quote]
Is the motive completely pure if we are upset when we do some
act of kindness for him and he does not reciprocate? Doesn't
that suggest our real motive was not the purest form of love?
I figure if you care about others, some will reciprocate and
some won't. That's not something I can control --it's up to
them -- and my decision to care about others can't be based on
what I expect back.
Matthew 6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know
what thy right hand doeth:
This is sound psychology to me. If we can learn how to do good
without considering what we expect back, we've learned the joy
of giving for the sake of giving. If we give expecting
something back, almost for sure we'll wind up disappointed or
angry with some people.
Still there is also the commandment not to toss pearls to the
swine -- meaning if you perceive trying to do good for someone
is only going to make him a worse person by inflaming him or
weakening him, don't do it. If you are kind to someone, and
he repays you with meanness, by all means stop wasting your time
and energy and love. There are some people who think if you
are being kind, it means you are weak and trying to placate them
-- the kinder you are to them, the more they think they can walk
all over you. I think it's a mistake to show kindness to them.
They are equating love with weakness -- an error that should
not be encourage in them.
#Post#: 12146--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the ability to love others a "gift" from God?
By: paralambano Date: May 10, 2016, 11:11 am
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Kerry -
[quote]It may seem something is wrong, but there's not really.
[/quote]
Yes. Seem.
[quote]Whatever the appearances are and whatever our
imaginations may tell us is true, we should keep in mind the
truth about ourselves which is what tells us we can rely
completely on God.[/quote]
Yes. Bottom line isn't it? I suppose the keeping in mind is
another way of saying praying unceasingly, no? I suppose we
could also say that Truth is invincible and falsehood vanishes
sooner or later. It's never that darkness overwhelms Light when
the door between them opens since evil/darkness is actually
nothing.
[quote]A parallel is being made between the wise way to conduct
a war and the wise way to deal with ourselves in the ways we are
like trees -- and I'd say this world does resemble a battle
field with the strange requirement that we subdue ourselves.
[/quote]
Not as strange as we might think since this world is held in our
consciousness/thought. Change consciousness and "place" and
experience(s) change. And back of it God's consciousness
omnipresent which is the only actual One. You referred to it
some time ago as the conduit of the vine. We either have the
hypothetical dual mind (good/evil thoughts) we foolishly think
is real or the only real Mind (of Christ) (our salvation) - the
eternal, everlasting consciousness of God/Good where everything
that is Good and True exists.
The Orthodox have this hymn for the Feast of the Nativity:
Make ready, O Bethlehem, for Eden hath been opened for all.
Prepare, O Ephratha, for the tree of life hath blossomed forth
in the cave from the Virgin; for her womb did appear as a
spiritual paradise in which is planted the divine Plant, whereof
eating we shall live and not die as did Adam. Christ shall be
born, raising the image that fell of old.
You know, the language is metaphorical. Trees yes can represent
people. Also Wisdom (Proverbs 3:something). In the hymn, Christ.
I add (Truth). In kabbalah, man and sephirot but as the image of
God as I see it. Always back to the Holy Good
Causation/Premogenitor. This is where we must start and defend -
the omnipresent perfection and eternal Good of God/Love in every
case. Thus, I see the Tree of Life as being none other than
God/Spirit.
God is not the author of evil. Impossible for Him to be, do,
commission.
para . . . .
#Post#: 12153--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the ability to love others a "gift" from God?
By: Kerry Date: May 12, 2016, 6:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=paralambano link=topic=1083.msg12146#msg12146
date=1462896701]
Yes. Bottom line isn't it? I suppose the keeping in mind is
another way of saying praying unceasingly, no?[/quote]Sorry to
be so tardy in responding; but I haven't forgotten you. I never
thought of that verse that way; but when I did, it sounded right
to me.
Every thing which is exists within the Unity of God. In Him, we
live, move and have our being. The hierarchy of existence is
also like a tree to me; and everything is meant somehow to fit
into that tree. An analogy of a car might be appropriate too.
How does a bolt on the wheel of a car fit into the unity which
is the car? If we are realistic, we will not miss the
relationships of the bolt to the wheel to the axle, to the drive
mechanism, and so on.
Thus in our relationships to everything else, we should be
mindful of God, praying without ceasing. If we fail to do that,
we are not being mindful of how things are meant to fit into the
totality of all that is. I believe if we have wrong concepts
about that "reality" we call the physical world, we will have
wrong ideas about God and ourselves and vice versa.
My opinion (strong one too) is that what passes for science
today is often a strong materialistic bias that posits, without
any evidence whatsoever, that nothing non-physical exists.
Certainly I am in favor of searching for physical causes before
positing any non-physical causes -- certainly -- but it does not
strike me as "scientific" to believe that nothing non-physical
exists.
[quote]I suppose we could also say that Truth is invincible and
falsehood vanishes sooner or later. It's never that darkness
overwhelms Light when the door between them opens since
evil/darkness is actually nothing.[/quote]
Yes, I see what you mean here and agree; yet in another way in
certain situations, lies persist and truth disappears. If we
have a mistaken idea about what is causing a rattle in our car,
the rattle will persist as long as the lie does. Once we
realize the truth about the rattle and fix the problem, the
problem goes away -- and we stop "thinking" about it. I don't
know if "the truth" can be said to be a product of the mind
even. Perhaps it is, but when the person himself, the spirit,
perceives the truth, he is aware of reality -- can observe it
without cringing -- and knows the truth without using logic.
Now again, I'm all in favor of logic -- but generally speak not
to establish truth. Logic is more useful in telling us what
can't be true. Logic can wake us up, "You can see that isn't
right. Stop trying to grasp reality by endless cogitation and
observe it -- be aware of it and of yourself." Certainly
Peter did not arrive at his break-through "truth" by cogitating
when Jesus asked who am I?
[quote]Not as strange as we might think since this world is held
in our consciousness/thought. Change consciousness and "place"
and experience(s) change. [/quote]As a teen, I was struck by how
children in general grew up and adopted the religion of their
parents. That put me in an awkward spot -- somewhat -- perhaps
though it was advantageous. I knew I could not justify my own
set of beliefs by telling myself they had to be right because
they were what my parents and others around me believed.
[quote]And back of it God's consciousness omnipresent which is
the only actual One. You referred to it some time ago as the
conduit of the vine. We either have the hypothetical dual mind
(good/evil thoughts) we foolishly think is real or the only real
Mind (of Christ) (our salvation) - the eternal, everlasting
consciousness of God/Good where everything that is Good and True
exists.[/quote]May I ask your take on this verse?
1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that
he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
It seems to me that there is a difference of some sort (perhaps
in roles?) between the "mind of God" and the "mind of Christ"
with the mind of Christ acting as intermediary between the mind
of God and the minds of men when they first begin to seek God.
[quote]The Orthodox have this hymn for the Feast of the
Nativity:
Make ready, O Bethlehem, for Eden hath been opened for all.
Prepare, O Ephratha, for the tree of life hath blossomed forth
in the cave from the Virgin; for her womb did appear as a
spiritual paradise in which is planted the divine Plant, whereof
eating we shall live and not die as did Adam. Christ shall be
born, raising the image that fell of old.
You know, the language is metaphorical. Trees yes can represent
people. Also Wisdom (Proverbs 3:something). In the hymn, Christ.
I add (Truth). In kabbalah, man and sephirot but as the image of
God as I see it. Always back to the Holy Good
Causation/Premogenitor. This is where we must start and defend -
the omnipresent perfection and eternal Good of God/Love in every
case. Thus, I see the Tree of Life as being none other than
God/Spirit.[/quote]I would phrase it differently saying, the
Tree of Life is all that which is animated by the Spirit.
[quote]God is not the author of evil. Impossible for Him to be,
do, commission.[/quote]
I believe this must be so since the commandment to love God
would be impossible to obey if believe God could be the author
of evil. I also believe that the commandment contains a
concealed doctrine that God is worthy of our Love, and we ought
not to imagine otherwise. If anyone has ideas which make him
hate God or doubt His goodness, he should either dismiss them as
impossible or say to himself he does not know and will not draw
premature conclusions based on ignorance.
The book of Job has a passage which I think deals with this when
Elihu wants Job to pay attention and find relief:
Job 33:31 Mark well, O Job, hearken unto me: hold thy peace, and
I will speak.
32 If thou hast anything to say, answer me: speak, for I desire
to justify thee.
33 If not, hearken unto me: hold thy peace, and I shall teach
thee wisdom.
I think it is by justifying God we become justified ourselves.
#Post#: 12155--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the ability to love others a "gift" from God?
By: HOLLAND Date: May 13, 2016, 11:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Maybe, Kerry, the poster on the other forum was thinking of love
as a spiritual gift, such as in Galatians 5:22-25 (ESV):
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience,
kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control;
against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to
Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and
desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the
Spirit.
In this respect, as a spiritual gift, love would serve as a
theological virtue, a forming of the new creation that we find
in Christ, that makes our spiritual walk and relationship with
God and with others possible.
Maybe, considered as a gift, love has nothing to do with purely
fleshly love as I had previously considered in my prior posting.
Peace be with you!
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