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#Post#: 12003--------------------------------------------------
Satan and Mary
By: Kerry Date: April 27, 2016, 7:46 am
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Why would it have been wrong for Jesus to make stones into
bread as Satan suggested? If it was okay for him to turn water
into wine when Mary asked, why wouldn't it have been okay to
turn stones into bread?
#Post#: 12007--------------------------------------------------
Re: Satan and Mary
By: Justaname Date: April 27, 2016, 2:02 pm
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This is probably a trick question :D Will be interested to
hear what you think.
For me, I think the key lays in what the challenge was. IF YOU
BE THE SON OF GOD..then turn the stones into bread. The stones
to be was not really the challenge. What was being challenged
was the divinity of Jesus and the calling on His life.
Personally I believe that this was the time when Jesus took back
what Adam gave away. This was a repeat " garden challenge".
Because back then, the challenge was "are you really complete,
or is there something God is hold back from you? " ie, A test
of who they were, in God.
Mary had been given charge over the seed of God at the
beginning, and then at his circumcision the old priest Simeon
prophesied who Jesus was. Even the pain Mary would go through.
( cross)
I liked what someone said...she probably knew that things ( and
even HE )had changed when He came back out from the challenge
about His Sonship. He knew who He was..
Today Satan is still challenging , over and over, trying to
shake us from knowing 'who we are, and our sonship "in Christ."
I answer is- "We know who we are, and it is through no work of
ourself, but by Grace! And like Jesus, we do not have to
'prove' who we are to you!!"
My two cents. :)
#Post#: 12009--------------------------------------------------
Re: Satan and Mary
By: Kerry Date: April 27, 2016, 3:26 pm
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[quote author=Justaname link=topic=1075.msg12007#msg12007
date=1461783753]
This is probably a trick question :D Will be interested to
hear what you think.
For me, I think the key lays in what the challenge was. IF YOU
BE THE SON OF GOD..then turn the stones into bread. The stones
to be was not really the challenge. What was being challenged
was the divinity of Jesus and the calling on His life.
Personally I believe that this was the time when Jesus took back
what Adam gave away. This was a repeat " garden challenge".
Because back then, the challenge was "are you really complete,
or is there something God is hold back from you? " ie, A test
of who they were, in God.
Mary had been given charge over the seed of God at the
beginning, and then at his circumcision the old priest Simeon
prophesied who Jesus was. Even the pain Mary would go through.
( cross)
I liked what someone said...she probably knew that things ( and
even HE )had changed when He came back out from the challenge
about His Sonship. He knew who He was..
Today Satan is still challenging , over and over, trying to
shake us from knowing 'who we are, and our sonship "in Christ."
I answer is- "We know who we are, and it is through no work of
ourself, but by Grace! And like Jesus, we do not have to
'prove' who we are to you!!"
My two cents. :)
[/quote]Yes, there is no need to prove anything! Jesus also
didn't need to prove who he was to Mary or others, right? But
we read:
11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and
manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
Following more miracles, we read:
23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast
day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which
he did.
24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew
all men,
25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew
what was in man.
So was believing in his name enough, completely enough -- or is
the believing the beginning? Do those who believe receive
power to become sons of God -- but have to use that power
themselves?
I agree with you that Satan was trying to tempt him to do
something in order to "prove" something. Not so sure it
involved "divinity" though. I'd say Jesus was telling Satan he
was a "man" who needed to live by every word that proceeds from
the mouth of God.
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall
not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out
of the mouth of God.
Another question is if Jesus ever performed a miracle that
benefited himself? I've been trying to think and can't think
of one. I think he was moved by Mary because she pointed out
how he could benefit others while Satan was appealing for him to
do a miracle because he was hungry. "So you're hungry -- if you
are who you think you are, make bread out of these stones."
Mary was appealing to love, Satan to "self." That's my take on
it.
#Post#: 12010--------------------------------------------------
Re: Satan and Mary
By: Brad Date: April 28, 2016, 9:46 am
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I always assumed that as He was fasting and very hungry, satan
was telling him to use His power to satisfy His physical hunger,
when using His power to satisfy personal desires (I say desires
versus need, because He had energy enough to walk to a place
where He could get some food) would be a step in a bad
direction. That would not be in line with His own (humble)
nature to do so.
#Post#: 12011--------------------------------------------------
Re: Satan and Mary
By: Justaname Date: April 28, 2016, 4:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Kerry said:- "So was believing in his name enough, completely
enough -- or is the believing the beginning? Do those who
believe receive power to become sons of God ------"
-----
Personally I think that "believing in His name" is a day and
hours happening, for me August 26 1964, but I also fully believe
that "believing in His name" is an every day continual
thing....we believed, and we continue to believe, until the end.
" 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall
grow cold.
13 But he that shall endure ( believes, faithful) unto the end,
the same shall be saved."
I think it is a continual believing and trusting in Him.
I agree with what you said...I also cannot think of one time
Jesus did anything to benefit himself. 'maybe' the time that
Peter was freaking out about getting their taxes paid, and Jesus
told him to get the fish and open its mouth, and there was the
gold coin to pay their taxes.
You got it right when you said The stones to bread would have
been for himself, and to meet his own needs.
The water to wine was to meet the needs of others. As you say,
Mary appealed to love, Satan appealed to self. Agree.
Agree with what Brad said too.
I have been caused to wonder about what kind of conversations
Mary had with John after Jesus asked John to take her and look
after her! Who would not wish to have been a fly on that
wall!! :D
----
#Post#: 12012--------------------------------------------------
Re: Satan and Mary
By: Kerry Date: April 28, 2016, 6:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Brad link=topic=1075.msg12010#msg12010
date=1461854794]
I always assumed that as He was fasting and very hungry, satan
was telling him to use His power to satisfy His physical hunger,
when using His power to satisfy personal desires (I say desires
versus need, because He had energy enough to walk to a place
where He could get some food) would be a step in a bad
direction. That would not be in line with His own (humble)
nature to do so.
[/quote]Was it physical hunger or spiritual hunger? Your
point remains valid even if it was spiritual hunger.
At first glance, it is easy to think Matthew, Mark and Luke's
Gospels mean physical hunger. That's how I read them. Then I
got quite a jolt reading the account in John's Gospel. I now
believe John is the one describing physical events while the
other three are describing spiritual events. I believe was
summoning Bread down from Heaven, and becoming that Bread
himself. He was obeying "every word" from the mouth of God in
becoming that Bread which would then be offered as a sacrifice.
The passages in question? The first three Gospels tell us the
40 days and nights came immediately after the baptism when the
Heavenly Voice first showed up and announced Jesus as Son. Mark
says:
11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my
beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
12 And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.
13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of
Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered
unto him.
John's Gospel says:
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending
from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with
water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the
Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which
baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his
disciples;
36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the
Lamb of God!
37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed
Jesus.
38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto
them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say,
being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he
dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth
hour.
40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was
Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him,
We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the
Christ.
42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he
said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called
Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
Now Peter was often called Satan by Jesus; and we see John
telling us Jesus met Peter right after his baptism. I
underlined "stone" because stones are mentioned in the other
three Gospels too but in a different way. Was Jesus also
planning to make Peter, the stone, into Bread by multiplying the
Bread? That would take time, years maybe. John goes on:
43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and
findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
This would be the second day after the baptism as I read it.
2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee;
and the mother of Jesus was there:
2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
And:
11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and
manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
12 After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and
his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not
many days.
13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to
Jerusalem.
So if the passover was shortly after, the days prior would have
been when yeast was being removed from houses so the unleavened
bread would not be contaminated. The way I read things,
Jesus was walking around with people and interacting with them,
even while spiritually he was "in the wilderness" with Satan
being tempted. The "Bread" was being prepared by removing the
"yeast" of Satan.
There is another hint that indicates to me the temptation was
spiritual rather than physical. When Jesus was taken to a
mountain, I think that was a spiritual mountain that he was
carried away in the Spirit to see.
Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding
high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world,
and the glory of them;
Yes, a mountain of the sort Enoch described. There is not a
physical mountain where you can see all the kingdoms of the
world; but I believe there is a spiritual mountain where you
could see them all. When a description in the Bible can't be
describing something physical, I don't think we should dismiss
it as untrue -- I think it's a clue that something spiritual is
being described.
Interestingly, John says the Bread of Life "comes" down from
Heaven. Perhaps we should not see Jesus as the Bread that
"came down" only once from Heaven. Yes, he "did" bring it down
-- past tense -- but John also has it in the present tense.
John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from
heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
As in, "Give us this day our daily bread." That is not
physical bread, as far as I can see.
Was it physical or spiritual bread in the miracle of the bread
and fish? I think that was both; but the people "received" only
the physical that gratified their bellies.
John 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say
unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but
because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat
which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall
give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
#Post#: 12013--------------------------------------------------
Re: Satan and Mary
By: Kerry Date: April 28, 2016, 6:42 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Justaname link=topic=1075.msg12011#msg12011
date=1461879600]
Personally I think that "believing in His name" is a day and
hours happening, for me August 26 1964, but I also fully believe
that "believing in His name" is an every day continual
thing....we believed, and we continue to believe, until the end.
" 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall
grow cold.
13 But he that shall endure ( believes, faithful) unto the end,
the same shall be saved."
I think it is a continual believing and trusting in Him.[/quote]
We agree then.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to
become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we
beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the
Father,) full of grace and truth.
Now what "Word" was made flesh? I believe "every word". It
may have started with the virgin birth; but it went on. The
Christian has his or her own type of virgin birth too -- when
the Word is planted or sown -- or engrafted as one passage puts
it.
James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of
naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which
is able to save your souls.
We must remove the yeast from the house -- we must seek to be
pure and virginal. If we do this, then I believe the Holy
Spirit "overshadows" us and also says of us, "This is my beloved
son." We have received the engrafted Word at that point. A
tiny seed has been planted that is meant to grow and grow up
into the Heavens.
[quote]I agree with what you said...I also cannot think of one
time Jesus did anything to benefit himself. 'maybe' the time
that Peter was freaking out about getting their taxes paid, and
Jesus told him to get the fish and open its mouth, and there was
the gold coin to pay their taxes.[/quote]
I looked that up. Did Jesus perform that miracle, or did Peter?
I'm not sure. I get the impression the story has more
meaning than I understand now. Perhaps ideas will come later.
[quote]You got it right when you said The stones to bread would
have been for himself, and to meet his own needs.
The water to wine was to meet the needs of others. As you say,
Mary appealed to love, Satan appealed to self. Agree.
Agree with what Brad said too.
I have been caused to wonder about what kind of conversations
Mary had with John after Jesus asked John to take her and look
after her! Who would not wish to have been a fly on that
wall!! :D[/quote]
I would have loved to have heard those conversations. It seems
clear to me that Luke got some of his material from Mary; but I
wonder what she said to John, and also what John told her about
things she hadn't seen herself. They must have had wonderful
conversations.
#Post#: 12014--------------------------------------------------
Re: Satan and Mary
By: Kerry Date: April 28, 2016, 9:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I also have Genesis in the back of my mind -- of the enmity
between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman.
I've been told that Jesus' calling Mary "woman" was a
compliment, not an insult as some may think. The "right kind
of woman" appeals to the best side of human nature to get good
things done. The "seed of the serpent" appeals to the worst
side, either fear, hate or lust. It's interesting to me that
the Heavenly Voice said Jesus was the Beloved Son, and then the
tempter comes along and calls that into question. Mary however
doesn't call anything into question. She doesn't need Jesus to
prove anything to her or to anyone else. She sees where Jesus
could do good and with the faith of a child expects it to
happen.
Now consider how many "men" had that kind of faith. I can think
of only one man who asked to have someone raised from the dead.
The rest were women. They don't know it will be done but ask
anyway. The book of Hebrews alerted me to this.
Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again:
and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they
might obtain a better resurrection:
Compare that to Eve after she had fallen and been poisoned by
the serpent. She tempted Adam to eat too. It wasn't enough
that she had eaten, she wanted him to eat too.
I must think too that the men stayed indoors, hiding, after
Jesus crucifixion. What was going through the minds of the
women who went to the tomb? What? Surely their going there
couldn't accomplish anything, could it? We might even think
Mary Magdalene had lost her mind. How could she wash the body
of Jesus if that stone was sealing the tomb and if people were
guarding it? It doesn't make sense, not in human terms. But
it worked.
The seed of the serpent said:
Matthew 27:62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the
preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto
Pilate,
63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he
was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the
third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away,
and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last
error shall be worse than the first.
But the "women" got what they wanted. They didn't know how
they were going to roll the stone away and I doubt they were
praying for Jesus to be raised from the dead; but they wanted
it. The inner prayer of their hearts was answered.
28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the
first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to
see the sepulchre.
2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of
the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the
stone from the door, and sat upon it.
#Post#: 12027--------------------------------------------------
Re: Satan and Mary
By: Justaname Date: April 29, 2016, 2:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Answering Kerry's second to last post. I have not read the last
one yet.
Kerry said:-
< Now what "Word" was made flesh? I believe "every word". It
may have started with the virgin birth; but it went on. The
Christian has his or her own type of virgin birth too -- when
the Word is planted or sown -- or engrafted as one passage puts
it. >
-------------
What I first heard preached, witnessed to in my spirit, and took
as "mine" and never heard or had revealed anything better
yet....was the thought that "back then" when THEY said..."Let US
make man in OUR image..". Was-
The Father thought it, The Word spoke it, and The Spirit
preformed it.
I took that into my heart and so far not found anything to
replace it.
"In the beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God, and
The Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing
made that was made."
I believe this is what John is speaking about.
NOw I must read your last post. :)
#Post#: 12028--------------------------------------------------
Re: Satan and Mary
By: Kerry Date: April 29, 2016, 2:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Justaname link=topic=1075.msg12027#msg12027
date=1461958354]
Answering Kerry's second to last post. I have not read the last
one yet.
Kerry said:-
< Now what "Word" was made flesh? I believe "every word". It
may have started with the virgin birth; but it went on. The
Christian has his or her own type of virgin birth too -- when
the Word is planted or sown -- or engrafted as one passage puts
it. >
-------------
What I first heard preached, witnessed to in my spirit, and took
as "mine" and never heard or had revealed anything better
yet....was the thought that "back then" when THEY said..."Let US
make man in OUR image..". Was-
The Father thought it, The Word spoke it, and The Spirit
preformed it.
I took that into my heart and so far not found anything to
replace it.
[/quote]Persons speak words. Words don't speak. When God said
let us make man in our own image, couldn't we say that His Word
became flesh?
[quote]"In the beginning was The Word, and The Word was with
God, and The Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing
made that was made."
I believe this is what John is speaking about.[/quote]Can we say
God the Father "spoke words" to the Word in Genesis? That
doesn't sound right to me.
Words come into being when someone speaks. The sound of words
vibrates outwards into space. Do words exist before you speak
them? No, not in the outside world -- and here we see John
saying "in the beginning." Not eternal. Before you speak the
words, they are in your mind, still part of you. After you say
them, they go out into the world.
The problem is how people personified "the Word." I believe
Justin Martyr did it first; then it became Catholic teaching and
finally Protestants adopted it. But words are not people or
persons. Can we say the Word had words of his own which were
spirit?
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth
nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and
they are life.
I believe when Jesus spoke, he was often speaking the Words of
God.
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