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#Post#: 11951--------------------------------------------------
The Ceasing of Prophecies, Tongues and Knowledge
By: Giuliano Date: April 20, 2016, 3:14 pm
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Christians have various opinions about this verse. It is so
controversial at times, it may even separate some Christians
from others.
1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be
prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they
shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Don't forget Paul was taught by Gamaliel. I believe the matter
can be cleared up by consulting the Old Testament and the Jewish
Tradition. What Paul writes there seems like fairly "standard
Jewish thought" to me.
#Post#: 11953--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Ceasing of Prophecies, Tongues and Knowledge
By: Justaname Date: April 20, 2016, 5:16 pm
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I have always taken that verse to mean- that because God is Love
Himself, love will never fail, but when we all come into Him at
the end...none of the rest will be needed any more. Until
then, they are 'the gifts' to be used to mature and grow up the
Church into the Perfect Bride.
That is how I see it.
It's a bit like the atheists who say "there is no God" then they
go on and on trying to prove that what 'they say' does not exist
, does actually not exist!!
If they don't really believe that there is a God, why even
bother to waste time to disprove Him? What a waste of energy.
I'm not sure just why people who don't 'believe' in the gifts
being relevant and alive today, bother to waste their time and
energy in trying to prove that they have all finished! It is
laughable when you think of it. As the great man wrote " me
thinks they doth protest too much." :D
#Post#: 11955--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Ceasing of Prophecies, Tongues and Knowledge
By: Kerry Date: April 21, 2016, 6:32 am
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[quote author=Justaname link=topic=1072.msg11953#msg11953
date=1461190579]
I have always taken that verse to mean- that because God is Love
Himself, love will never fail, but when we all come into Him at
the end...none of the rest will be needed any more. Until
then, they are 'the gifts' to be used to mature and grow up the
Church into the Perfect Bride.
That is how I see it. [/quote]That seems to be the sense of the
passage to me also. The context suggests that.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in
part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a
child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away
childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to
face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I
am known.
Some read "when that which is perfect is come" to mean the
second coming of Jesus -- as in the rapture -- but that doesn't
seem to fit to me. Paul is writing to people at Corinth. The
"we" means Paul and them. I would hesitate to state exactly
what "what which is perfect" means since I frankly assume it
hasn't arrived yet for me. Paul is telling the people at
Corinth that charity is the main thing, and the only thing that
won't fail and can be depended on. He is telling them that,
not us although I think it's true for us too; so is he telling
them that tongues and prophecy will end shortly? If so, if he
really meant the church at Corinth should expect those gifts to
cease shortly, why would he go in the next chapter to say:
14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to
speak with tongues.
If it was about to cease, why wouldn't he tell them to forbid
the speaking in tongues as a fake after the godly gift ceased?
I also don't think we should be too literal when reading
"whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away." I think
Paul means here, "words of knowledge." He's mentioned two
other gifts of the Spirit and elsewhere we read about the "word
of knowledge" also being a gift. So we ought not to think
"knowledge" was going to stop.
But I don't know how others read that. If they think tongues
ceased shortly after Paul wrote that, do they also think
"knowledge" ceased?
Now let me quote Maimonides from his book, Guide for the
Perplexed
HTML http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/gfp/gfp132.htm.
I regret to
say I don't agree with his take on Ezra 1:1; but I do agree with
his main point.
In the same manner, as the prophet does not prophesy
continuously, but is inspired at one time and not at another, so
he may at one time prophesy in the form of a higher degree, and
at another time in that of a lower degree; it may happen that
the highest degree is reached by a prophet only once in his
lifetime, and afterwards remains inaccessible to him, or that a
prophet remains below the highest degree until he entirely loses
the faculty: for ordinary prophets must cease to prophesy a
shorter or longer period before their death. Comp. "And the word
of the Lord ceased from Jeremiah" (Ezra i. 1); "And these are
the last words of David" (2 Sam. xxiii. 1). From these instances
it can be inferred that the same is the case with all prophets.
I repeat that I can't agree with him on Ezra 1:1 since I think
the correct translation there is "fulfilled" as most
translations have it. (Surprise, sometimes I do agree with most
translations. What Jeremiah had prophesied concerning the
seventy weeks was about to come to be completed. I do agree
with him about David.
2 Samuel 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the
son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the
anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel,
said,
2 The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my
tongue.
No, not his final words as a man but the last words he spoke
prophetically. Rashi said that chapter 22 was David's first
prophetically inspired work, his Psalm (18) when he was
delivered out of the hand of Saul. David did not die at the end
of chapter 23. He went on living and talking but not
prophetically.
A prophet cannot expect to prophesy continuously or forever.
It comes when God has a purpose for it. If there is no
purpose, why would it continue? Indeed this is one of the
problems I have with those Muslims who teach that every word
Mohammed said after Gabriel appeared to him had to be perfect
and inspired. Some Muslims will not allow that a prophet when
he is not prophesying is prone to make mistakes. Of course,
this has led to some confusion for Muslims with the "Satanic
verses" and also with some contradictions in the Quran.
I'll say something personal. I used to have visions; and I
used to have conversations with angels. This has mostly
ceased; and what I see and hear now is rare -- and when they
happen, they appear uncertain to me. I think this has
something to do with old age and health. Now let me quote
from a commentary about Maimonides' book
HTML http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/gfp/gfp006.htm;
and take this
all with a grain of salt:
Besides this, everything which obstructs mental improvement,
misdirects the imagination or impairs the physical strength, and
precludes man from attaining to the rank of prophet. Hence no
prophecy was vouchsafed to Jacob during the period of his
anxieties on account of his separation from Joseph. Nor did
Moses receive a Divine message during the years which the
Israelites, under Divine punishment, spent in the desert. On the
other hand, music and song awakened the prophetic power (comp. 2
Kings iii. 15), and "The spirit of prophecy alights only on him
who is wise, strong, and rich" (Babyl. Talm. Shabbat, 922).
Although the preparation for a prophetic mission, the pursuit of
earnest and persevering study, as also the execution of the
Divine dictates, required physical strength, yet in the moment
when the prophecy was received the functions of the bodily
organs were suspended.
Physical illness or even old age can blocking out things out of
the mind, focusing on the physical. Why would the Talmud say
poor people shouldn't expect to be prophets? I'd say mostly
because they would be apt to be focusing on the problems of
poverty. I don't think it's necessary to be rich; but the mind
cannot be preoccupied with wanting money or feeling it
desperately needed to chase money.
There are times when I miss having visions; and this verse from
Paul comforts me. I should not want visions and more visions.
I need to focus on love now. I could say I was "lucky" to have
visions and then "lucky" too when they ceased.
I can't read this passage then to mean that Paul was saying the
gift of tongues would cease altogether shortly after he wrote
that.
#Post#: 11956--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Ceasing of Prophecies, Tongues and Knowledge
By: paralambano Date: April 21, 2016, 11:16 am
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Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge
of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the
stature of the fullness of Christ (Eph 4:13).
You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put
off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful
desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to
put on the new self, created to be like God in true
righteousness and holiness (Eph 4:22-24).
Yes, but how? What can putting on the mind of Christ actually
mean? The mind can be a tricky thing.
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power (1
Cor 4:20).
The fullness of Christ means for me the fullness of Truth since
Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would lead His followers into
all truth. What's the perfect man? The recovered one made in the
image and likeness of God, the true self. I've seen it by
dream-vision. It lasted into my waking state. I don't remember
asking for it.
para . . . .
#Post#: 11958--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Ceasing of Prophecies, Tongues and Knowledge
By: HOLLAND Date: April 21, 2016, 12:16 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I would think that love in its final form when we are in the
presence of God would eclipse any other human experience or
gift, including spiritual gifts such as prophecy and tongues. I
think of the passage as referring to the eschaton where we are
enveloped within God's love and are bursting for love of God and
for other.
In a certain sense love eclipses ordinary, mundane knowledge
since it is a bonding between people making them one. At that
point in the bond, communication and gifts are not necessary,
only the over-arching consuming power of love that sustains the
bond and the sharing of existence.
Peace be with you!
#Post#: 11963--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Ceasing of Prophecies, Tongues and Knowledge
By: Justaname Date: April 21, 2016, 10:11 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]Quote Holland- I would think that love in its final form
when we are in the presence of God would eclipse any other human
experience or gift, including spiritual gifts such as prophecy
and tongues.[/quote]
I think we are all in agreement on this then. :)
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in
part shall be done away.
Is there anything perfect other than love? So is this meaning
the time of the perfection of love, rather than the in part,
that we have now?
I also believe Paul is speaking of love manifest = Jesus Christ.
Who came to fulfil the law. The law only being the schoolmaster
to bring us to Christ. The law was 'in part' and could never
bring man to perfection.
The subject of the thread being, 'The Ceasing of...' the gifts
in this day we are in.
Do we all agree that they are still used today in bring the
church to maturity?
1 Cor 12
" Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you
ignorant.
Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb
idols, even as ye were led.....
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same
Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God
which worketh all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to
profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to
another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another
faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the
same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another
prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers
kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing
to every man severally as He will. For as the body is one, and
hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being
many, are one body: so also is Christ.
* For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether
we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have
been all made to drink into one Spirit.....
For the body is not one member, but many. ....
*But now hath God set the members every one of them in the
body, as it hath pleased Him....
And those members of the body, which we think to be less
honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our
uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the
body together, having given more abundant honour to that part
which lacked.
That there should be no schism in the body; but that the
members should have the same care one for another....
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily
prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of
healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all
workers of miracles? ( No)
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do
all interpret? (No)
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a
more excellent way.
Love....
#Post#: 11973--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Ceasing of Prophecies, Tongues and Knowledge
By: Kerry Date: April 23, 2016, 7:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Justaname link=topic=1072.msg11963#msg11963
date=1461294707]
I think we are all in agreement on this then. :)[/quote]It
seems mostly so, doesn't it? This topic can get people riled;
but it's gone fairly well.
[quote]10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that
which is in part shall be done away.
Is there anything perfect other than love? So is this meaning
the time of the perfection of love, rather than the in part,
that we have now?
I also believe Paul is speaking of love manifest = Jesus Christ.
Who came to fulfil the law. The law only being the schoolmaster
to bring us to Christ. The law was 'in part' and could never
bring man to perfection.
The subject of the thread being, 'The Ceasing of...' the gifts
in this day we are in.
Do we all agree that they are still used today in bring the
church to maturity?[/quote]
I can't say I know for sure. I've seen people speaking in
tongues only twice in my life. The first time was when I was
quite young and my Mother wanted to visit a Pentecostal church
in a nearby town. (She liked to visit other churches.) I
didn't know what was going on; and she patiently explained to me
that that didn't happen in our church but it happened in some
others, and it was okay. Yes, someone also acted as
translator.
The second time was when I was much older; and a woman was lying
on the floor wriggling around and speaking in tongues. This was
at a conference, so there were several ministers there and I
happened to be sitting next to one. I'm not joking, the way
she was wriggling around, it looked as if she was having sex
with an invisible man. It was very sexual. I turned to the
minister and asked him if he thought this was decent and in
order. He asked me what I meant, so I pointed to her and said,
"Paul tells us everything should be done decently and in order.
Do you think that's decent and in order?" This minister
amazed me. He confessed it didn't look that way to him and that
he had seen other things as well that concerned him as a
minister. He was a very nice guy, and I found out an honest
one too. I asked him why he chose to stay in that denomination;
and he said he wanted to stay to help. He didn't want to leave
just because there were problems. I could see that. I can
see it either way: Sometimes maybe it's best to leave and
sometimes maybe to stay.
The first case was perhaps an authentic expression of the
Divine. As a child, I would sometimes start to feel
uncomfortable in some church services -- telling me something
was going wrong -- but I did not get that sense of anything
being wrong in that church. I was just naive since I'd never
seen it before. The second case I cannot see how it was from
God.
I would never say outright no one should speak in tongues, since
I'd be defying Paul who said not to forbid it; but I'm also
reluctant to say almost anything should be tolerated. I think
that woman should have been pulled aside later by her own
minister so they could have had a good conversation privately.
If you ask me, she had problems, and they weren't being
addressed. We are told to "try every spirit."
What does "trying every spirit" involve? I think I know. If a
spirit is truly from God, it will serve a useful purpose.
Sometimes it will benefit the person himself -- as praying at
homes in tongues can do. But it's got to be real benefits --
more than feeling good about himself. Yes, I believe praying
in private in tongues can be beneficial -- but it will show its
fruits sooner or later for that person to see. If there is no
real spirit progress but the person is praying in tongues alone
just to feel good, I would suspect that spirit is not from God
-- it's a deceptive spirit that acts the way painkillers do --
the pain may stop but you still have the problem that was
causing the pain.
It may be easier to see a spirit is from God when a person is
exercising a gift of the spirit that benefits others and you can
see the benefits. But here again, people need to guard
against wishful thinking and delusion. There are "prophets"
who make people feel good by making predictions -- it can make
for an exciting service. I've not seen it in person; but I've
seen it on TV. People get wound up and are sure these
prophecies are from God. But what do they think when the
prophecies don't come true? They should tell themselves, "I
was fooled. I've got to learn more about judging what came from
God and what didn't." This can be useful -- highly useful.
I'm not perfect and I doubt anyone else is. I can be fooled;
and if I can see where I have been, I'm making progress.
I repeat the old saying, "You can't cheat an honest man." If
someone is seriously pursuing the kingdom and seeks to become a
better servant of Jesus, he will want to see where he went
wrong. He becomes a better person for it. That is God at work
if you ask me. Yes, I'd say even if you attended a church
full of demons, you could be led by the Spirit and learn to spot
the demonic instead of being fooled by it.
Let me underline a part I consider critical in the following
passage.
[quote]1 Cor 12
" Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you
ignorant.
Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb
idols, even as ye were led.....
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same
Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God
which worketh all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to
profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to
another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another
faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the
same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another
prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers
kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing
to every man severally as He will. For as the body is one, and
hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being
many, are one body: so also is Christ.
* For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether
we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have
been all made to drink into one Spirit.....
For the body is not one member, but many. ....
*But now hath God set the members every one of them in the
body, as it hath pleased Him....
And those members of the body, which we think to be less
honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our
uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the
body together, having given more abundant honour to that part
which lacked.
That there should be no schism in the body; but that [i]the
members should have the same care one for another....
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily
prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of
healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all
workers of miracles? ( No)
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do
all interpret? (No)
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a
more excellent way[/i].[/quote]
If something increases love -- love for God and love for other
people -- then I think it came from God. As long as the
"members" of the Body of Christ are imperfect, why wouldn't
these gifts of God be available to them so the Body of Christ
could move in the direction of perfecting itself? If we
believe the gifts ceased, do we also believe this promise from
Jesus expired and is no longer true?
Luke 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that
seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
But of course, what we ask for has to be proper!
James 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye
may consume it upon your lusts.
I think there is another danger in some churches. This didn't
happen to me but to my sister. She was at a service and the
minister asked if there was anyone there who didn't speak in
tongues if they wanted to receive the gift. My sister doesn't
and didn't feel led to go down; and she was talking to the woman
next to her. I think the woman was her friend. Anyway my
sister asked her if she spoke in tongues; and she said not
really. She had been pestered about it though and pressured
until she gave in and allowed the minister to pray over her and
lay hands on her. Then she faked it. Yes, she admitted that
to my sister because my sister had told her she could be a good
Christian without praying in tongues. She felt safe admitting
she didn't have that gift because my sister wasn't condemning
her or looking down at her for not having it. I found that
very sad tragic. So what if she didn't have the gift of
tongues? I wonder if she had another gift or perhaps even
several which weren't being appreciated because her church
focused so much on that one gift? We should not be pressuring
people like that and encouraging them to fake things.
I would love to talk to that woman though. Does she think
everyone else is faking it or that most of the people are faking
it? Does she think her pastor is an idiot because she's faking
it and he doesn't know? Or does she think he knows and goes
along with anyway? Pressuring anyone like that makes them
wonder about a lot of other things. I know if I could fake it
and fool a minister into thinking I had the gift of tongues when
I know I don't, I'd think the minister was bogus. I think it's
better to accept people how they are -- as long as they're
improving in their lives, things are fine. If someone speaks in
tongues, fine; and if another doesn't, that's fine too.
#Post#: 11974--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Ceasing of Prophecies, Tongues and Knowledge
By: Justaname Date: April 23, 2016, 2:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]Quoting Kerry:-
The second time was when I was much older; and a woman was lying
on the floor wriggling around and speaking in tongues. I agree,
I've seen this too many times. And like you, there is always an
"inner witness" that God is not at work in the life of the
person, but usually something else! I have found some ministers
amazingly undiscerning! ( is that really a word?) I went to one
after a meeting once, it was about 7 yrs ago. I asked the
minister if they were going to follow-up with the young man, as
it was not God's spirit making him mutter strangely and jerk
around, but another spirit. He seem taken a back, and said, "Oh
you think so?" I said, "I know so." As you said Kerry. The
Spirit of God comes with edification, bless and comfort. If we
have a feeling of unease then there is no ministry from God to
us! We judge by the witness of the Spirit within us, as Paul
said....but we do not lay judgement on the others, as many are
quite ignorant ( (which in my book, also includes some of the
leadership.)
I asked him why he chose to stay in that denomination; and he
said he wanted to stay to help. He didn't want to leave just
because there were problems. I could see that. I can see it
either way: Sometimes maybe it's best to leave and sometimes
maybe to stay. He sounds like a wise man. He was obviously "
about his Fathers business. We stayed in a situation for
more than a couple of years for the same reason. God did not
tell us to leave because of the problems, He told us to stay and
be part of the answer. We couldn't leave until He told us it
was time.
What does "trying every spirit" involve? I think I know. If a
spirit is truly from God, it will serve a useful purpose.
Amen to that. I think that Toronto Blessing thing may have
started in the Spirit, but it sure got out of hand and much was
just 'loose flesh' having a party. And the leadership let things
happen because great numbers started to attend. They do love
numbers.
If someone is seriously pursuing the kingdom and seeks to
become a better servant of Jesus, he will want to see where he
went wrong. He becomes a better person for it. That is God at
work if you ask me. Yes, I'd say even if you attended a
church full of demons, you could be led by the Spirit and learn
to spot the demonic instead of being fooled by it.
If someone speaks in tongues, fine; and if another doesn't,
that's fine too.
Yes, well said, that is just how it should be. I forgot to
say...It is sad that your sisters friend felt so much pressure
'to perform' that she faked it. Some ministers are often clumsy
idiots with the beautiful things of God. They go in like bulls
in a china shop. Breaking beautiful things and hurting precious
souls while doing it. But, God understands even that if it is
just clumsiness. We are all bumbling our way toward the
Beautiful City..we may not all make it in once piece, but we
will make it nevertheless!
It sounds a bit like Acts 27 ..I love it...."and the rest should
follow, some on planks, and others on various things from the
ship. And so it happened that they all were brought safely to
land." :D
[/quote]
#Post#: 12015--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Ceasing of Prophecies, Tongues and Knowledge
By: Kerry Date: April 28, 2016, 9:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote] Some ministers are often clumsy idiots with the
beautiful things of God. They go in like bulls in a china shop.
Breaking beautiful things and hurting precious souls while doing
it. [/quote]
I have wondered for some time if "tongues began to cease" in the
early church when some of its leaders began to go astray and
interlopers gained entrance to the churches and sowed division.
Consider the history of the Toronto Blessing. The
denomination they were part of broke off with them. We could
argue if the denomination was wrong or if the people running
the Toronto Blessing church were wrong; but something went
wrong. We don't see unity if people are arguing and splitting
up.
The "holy laughter" thing? Wesley ran into it in some of his
meetings and suppressed it. He did not think it was from God. I
think I agree with him. I can't read "speaking in tongues" to
mean laughing uncontrollable -- or barking like dogs or making
other animal noises. I can't. I also think this sort of
thing damages the reputation of a church. People begin to
wonder if it's all fake or crazy. If a church leader can't
weed out the fakery and the craziness, I think it makes
"speaking in tongues" look bad too because people can associate
them all together.
I find it interesting that many denominations can start off with
people speaking in tongues; and as time goes by, it becomes less
frequent and then fades away. I think perhaps this is true
because the leaders haven't spotted the "wrong stuff" and
separated it out from the real thing. When their reputations
are damaged, then they think they should stop all speaking in
tongues. Or perhaps "hide it" the way Aimee McPherson did. If
someone started speaking in tongues, they got sent to another
room.
I think maybe something like also happened in the early church.
Maybe Bishops who didn't know how to weed out the wrong stuff
finally decided to suppress it all. When the first Ecumenical
Council was held, there were various ideas about though. Not
everyone agreed on everything or did things the same way. The
Council of Nicea decided everyone should agree and believe and
act in the same way. People who didn't agree got dismissed and
suppressed.
I also believe this worked to the "advantage" of the priests
and Bishops who gained more power. They were the ones who ran
the services and did things. There weren't people standing up
to give prophecies or words of wisdom or speaking in tongues.
The priests did things, not the people. We have no record
(that I know of) that these things were suppressed consciously
or by decrees; but I can see them happening almost automatically
-- just as we see "tongues ceasing" in some denominations over
time.
[hr]
This division between the priesthood and the people eventually
became more pronounced later in the Catholic Church in the West
than it was in the Orthodox Church in the East -- when the
Catholic Church adopted pews for the people to sit in. Prior
to that, the people often stood up during services -- which
weren't as long as they are now -- and they moved back and
forth too. In most Orthodox Churches, people still stand during
services unless they're sick or tired. They are interacting and
moving. Lately though, more Orthodox Churches in the US (and
perhaps elsewhere) are introducing pews. This is indeed strange
since the Nicean Councils said people should stand if they were
able when praying -- and most Orthodox churches have people
standing for the whole service. Having people in pews may not
be a sin in itself; but it can encourage the congregation to be
spectators watching a show instead of being active participants.
I think it also leads to longer services.
It is odd to me that the Catholic Church says all the canons of
the various councils they say are Ecumenical Councils are
absolutely true -- while they disobey Canon 20 of the First
Council of Nicea
HTML https://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/NICAEA1.HTM#3:
20. Since there are some who kneel on Sunday and during the
season of Pentecost, this holy synod decrees that, so that the
same observances may be maintained in every diocese, one should
offer one's prayers to the Lord standing.
We know from that particular Canon that different people did
different things before that -- and also know that that Council
decreed people should pray standing. How can we then believe
that the Catholic Church possesses "the" authentic Tradition
passed down the generations from the Apostles themselves? Why
would they introduce sitting? I think it was to make the people
more spectators than participants. "Sit down and be quiet!"
Don't think I think you can't pray sitting -- but why if you
thought it important enough to make a rule about it would you
then break your own rule?
I can see tongues ceasing the in the early church as a result
of having too many leaders who preferred to be the center of
attention throughout the services. I wouldn't say this was the
Will of God though -- or what Paul meant when he said tongues
cease. Several things went wrong in the early church; and we
shouldn't say they were result of God's Will. I think it's an
error to read Paul that way even though tongues did mostly
cease in the early church.
#Post#: 12030--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Ceasing of Prophecies, Tongues and Knowledge
By: Justaname Date: April 29, 2016, 2:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Gotta go now...but I want to come back to this thread and your
post. So I will mark this thread unread, and hope it shows up to
remind me when I click on unread posts.
Later....
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