DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Love God Only
HTML https://lovegodonly.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Things of the Spirit
*****************************************************
#Post#: 11522--------------------------------------------------
Collective Subconscious
By: paralambano Date: February 9, 2016, 12:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Okay, so, I'm thinking that it could be that the reason Jesus
and/or apostles could not do miracles in certain places was
because the collective subconscious of the persons there really
wanted things to remain there as they were or as they wanted
them to be in the future. You know, let's have a play about a
murder mystery for example, since we like murder mysteries so. I
mean, I suppose there are other underlying reasons for a lack of
agreement (faith) as well.
para . . . . .
#Post#: 11523--------------------------------------------------
Re: Collective Subconscious
By: Kerry Date: February 9, 2016, 7:16 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I agree. I think performing miracles in certain conditions can
be a violation of the free will of others.
We ought not to believe that this implies a deficiency of power.
Rather we should believe that God is limited by His own Nature
from doing certain things. God cannot lie, for example, since
God is Love -- and lying would be against His Nature. If we
then postulate that God gave man free will, we can reasonably
conclude that God is not going to violate that. In my book,
violating the free will of others is the essential error behind
the satanic inclination.
This reminds me of this passage:
Genesis 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the
tower, which the children of men builded.
Now surely we cannot believe God had to "come down" in order to
"see" what was going on. We cannot believe God is like men who
need spectacles. The Jewish tradition says He came down with
the seventy angels of the nations. This can be compared too to
a judge visiting the scene along with witnesses. I believe the
decision made about the tower was made in consultation with the
seventy angels.
Did the angels want confusion as a way of forcing the people to
spread out across the earth? Perhaps.
Genesis 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound <confuse>
their language, that they may not understand one another's
speech.
1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but
of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
I am open for other explanations, but for now I believe the
angels of the nations desired some confusion and God permitted
it.
#Post#: 11529--------------------------------------------------
Re: Collective Subconscious
By: paralambano Date: February 11, 2016, 12:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I'm thinking that there comes a point where God (being
Good/Perfect) would violate the free will of those building this
tower in order to save His creation. He did this with just a few
by the Ark when the collective consciousness had filled up the
measure of its cup.
There are certain things that God has prescribed (that the
people should replenish the earth after the Flood) which are
orderly and good. Those in Shinar who confused God's goodness
with error (that God was somehow their enemy) reaped confusion
upon themselves. There are a number of rabbinic explanations for
the events - one being that they were going to ascend to battle
God. They thought perhaps that brick and mortar (materiality)
could lead them into heaven instead of spiritual sense. The
antidote I believe was Pentecost where those gathered had
already seen or heard of God's goodness by Jesus and His
disciples. There was no confusion there and what there was at
Babel was a boomerang-effect.
The story I think as you have suggested is anthropormophized
(sic) (for a less literate people). I see God or Goodness always
rectifying errors which originate in the false man.
para . . . . .
#Post#: 11531--------------------------------------------------
Re: Collective Subconscious
By: Kerry Date: February 12, 2016, 12:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=paralambano link=topic=1049.msg11529#msg11529
date=1455214197]
I'm thinking that there comes a point where God (being
Good/Perfect) would violate the free will of those building this
tower in order to save His creation. He did this with just a few
by the Ark when the collective consciousness had filled up the
measure of its cup.[/quote]Could it be that the people building
the Tower were guilty of violating the free will of others
(including perhaps that of people not born yet)? If so, then
God could be justified in intervening.
When evil men lead others into schemes which threaten all
humanity and their free will, I think it reaches a point where
that threat is so close to becoming reality, God is willing to
intervene on behalf of the innocent -- and their free will. I
derive that as a rule or law from the specific case given by
Jesus:
Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no
flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath
chosen, he hath shortened the days.
[quote]There are certain things that God has prescribed (that
the people should replenish the earth after the Flood) which are
orderly and good. Those in Shinar who confused God's goodness
with error (that God was somehow their enemy) reaped confusion
upon themselves. There are a number of rabbinic explanations for
the events - one being that they were going to ascend to battle
God. They thought perhaps that brick and mortar (materiality)
could lead them into heaven instead of spiritual sense. The
antidote I believe was Pentecost where those gathered had
already seen or heard of God's goodness by Jesus and His
disciples. There was no confusion there and what there was at
Babel was a boomerang-effect.[/quote]
Whatever explanation we have, I don't think we should believe
God made a mistake in giving free will to people and then had to
reverse course by interfering or by being annoyed with how man
decides. The difference I see between Babel and Pentecost is
that people at Pentecost were waiting for God to descend.
Their purpose was aligned with His.
[quote]The story I think as you have suggested is
anthropormophized (sic) (for a less literate people). I see God
or Goodness always rectifying errors which originate in the
false man.[/quote]I believe there is a satanic type of will
which seeks to deprive others of their freedom -- from freedom
of thought, freedom of conscience, and free of will. This type
of error is a violation of the law of free will, not an
expression of it. I call this the "false will."
#Post#: 11533--------------------------------------------------
Re: Collective Subconscious
By: paralambano Date: February 12, 2016, 8:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Kerry;
Ya, pretty much what you wrote. I think we agree that God does
intervene as you say on behalf of the innocent at a certain
point and your quoting of Mark 13:20 is a good example. We have
all those healed by Jesus and His disciples in spite of the
culture of death around them.
para . . . .
#Post#: 11551--------------------------------------------------
Re: Collective Subconscious
By: paralambano Date: February 21, 2016, 1:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Free will is one way of looking at the collective sub or overt
consciousness. Another way I suppose is through the trait of
ignorance, whether one chooses it or not. Certain ideas can
become so entrenched that no one has thought about changing them
until something better comes along. For examples, a
slave-holding or human-sacrificing society. The collective
consciousness could become so darkened so that another way of
doing things is thought to be impractical.
#Post#: 11569--------------------------------------------------
Re: Collective Subconscious
By: HOLLAND Date: February 26, 2016, 9:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
It needs to be remembered that the subconscious (or the
unconscious) is that process of thinking in the mind that is not
part of our conscious awareness; and, that the collective
unconscious is the commonality of that subconscious that is
shared by all people.
I would agree that the collective subconscious of a society may
affect how persons are perceived, such as Jesus by his
townspeople in Nazareth; and, the tower of babel story where
there is a commonality of purpose that leads to the building of
the tower which God disrupts.
Consciousness whether it is in our awareness, or if it is not
(such as the subconscious) can limit our freedom, our
expectation of how things ought to be, or the ideals and customs
that we share in common in the society we inhabit.
Several questions come up:
1. How does the will affect our consciousness and
unconsciousness? Is a decision not to belief in Jesus by his
own townspeople decided by fixed ideas that the townspeople had
of Jesus that affected their decision as to whether or not to
believe that Jesus is the Messiah or not?
2. How does existential faith, the decision for one to risk him
or herself in the struggle to become what one should be in the
process of freedom affected by our consciousness and
unconsciousness? Is the lack of faith in Jesus by his own
townspeople based upon the expectation that Jesus could not be
as such in that they could not see how faith in Jesus could lead
to a better becoming into what they want to be existentially
before their lives are finished?
Peace be with you!
#Post#: 11571--------------------------------------------------
Re: Collective Subconscious
By: Kerry Date: February 27, 2016, 1:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=HOLLAND link=topic=1049.msg11569#msg11569
date=1456544304]
It needs to be remembered that the subconscious (or the
unconscious) is that process of thinking in the mind that is not
part of our conscious awareness; and, that the collective
unconscious is the commonality of that subconscious that is
shared by all people.
[/quote]You raise several questions; but for now, let me address
one raised in this sentence. Do all people share the same
collective unconscious? Or do some lean towards positive
archetypes while others towards negative ones? I'd say there
appears to be a kind of war going on for the "hearts and minds"
of people via the collective unconscious connection they have.
I found this chart at Wikipedia
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconscious#Archetypes:
Ego
Great Mother
Old Wise Man
Anima
Meaning
Centrality
Order
Opposition
Time
Sacred
Light
Transformation
As someone who has studied magic and done some, I tend to think
it depends on people's connections which sort of archetypes they
are connected with. The Christian proposition is that the old
type of consciousness is replaced by a new type -- the Christ
consciousness. People are connected to it via "The Vine."
I had a vision once of this Vine, without knowing what I was
seeing until I returned to ordinary consciousness.
My vision was this. I was walking with someone else on what
appeared to be a glass floor. The person with me was talking to
me -- with words that I did not remember later. I knew who he
was though. I learned later when someone suggested it to me
that the "glass" was really "gold" since spiritual gold is
clear. I was walking on what the Bible calls the "firmament."
Yes, it's real. This is also what John calls the "sea of
glass" in Revelation.
Below us I saw various spheres with different colors; and they
were all attached to a vine -- just like grapes on a vine. I
knew what these spheres were -- the souls of men and women.
What was astonishing to me was they could cross each other
without losing their connections or getting snarled. What I did
not realize during the vision was these souls were attached to
"the Vine." I'd say the Tree of Life can be said to be "a
fig tree and a vine." It grows up from the earth in one way;
but in another way, it grows downwards too, putting down roots
where it can. Compare that to Buddha's bo tree with its branches
which put down new roots. But don't take my vision which is a
private sort of thing, as an authority of course. I think I
could derive the same idea from the Bible.
The person connected to the Vine has access to all the ideas in
the Mind of Christ which may include the ideas collected by the
Collective Mind from individuals in the Body of Christ. It
contains ideas too about how the Mind of Christ views current
events and plans for the future.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he
will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of
himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and
he will shew you things to come.
Men seem to want to make that passage "truth about doctrines"
only. It is often argued over with both sides merrily ignoring
the part about the revealing of things to come.
#Post#: 11576--------------------------------------------------
Re: Collective Subconscious
By: paralambano Date: February 27, 2016, 12:08 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Holland -
Thanks for your reply.
[quote]It needs to be remembered that the subconscious (or the
unconscious) is that process of thinking in the mind that is not
part of our conscious awareness; and, that the collective
unconscious is the commonality of that subconscious that is
shared by all people.
[/quote]
Ya.
[quote]I would agree that the collective subconscious of a
society may affect how persons are perceived, such as Jesus by
his townspeople in Nazareth; and, the tower of babel story where
there is a commonality of purpose that leads to the building of
the tower which God disrupts.[/quote]
Ya.
[quote]Consciousness whether it is in our awareness, or if it is
not (such as the subconscious) can limit our freedom, our
expectation of how things ought to be, or the ideals and customs
that we share in common in the society we inhabit.
[/quote]
Ya.
[quote]
Several questions come up:
1. How does the will affect our consciousness and
unconsciousness? Is a decision not to belief in Jesus by his
own townspeople decided by fixed ideas that the townspeople had
of Jesus that affected their decision as to whether or not to
believe that Jesus is the Messiah or not?
[/quote]
I think the collective subconscious is a product of the free
will decisions in total of the collective. I suppose that there
is a tipping point. In other words, the subconscious isn't
necessarily predetermined but programmed by tradition and
expectation. This comes about I suppose by a lack of critical
thinking if the results are negative or unfruitful. In Jesus'
case, His townsfolk most likely understood that parents have
children who take up their fathers' trades and are expected for
the most part to continue these paths. This is why people
rhetorically asked of Jesus when he worked out of this paradigm
whether He was the son of "Mary" or the carpenter's son.
[quote]2. How does existential faith, the decision for one to
risk him or herself in the struggle to become what one should be
in the process of freedom affected by our consciousness and
unconsciousness?[/quote]
That's a good question. I suppose that like us, Jesus was given
a choice all along - - to obey what He knew or understood as
Truth regardless of negative consequences or not. We have a
record of elders being astonished with His understanding of
things when He was still young and we also know that He was
extraordinary, having been born of the Holy Spirit and having a
clearer perspective of Truth than we seeming mortals.
[quote]Is the lack of faith in Jesus by his own townspeople
based upon the expectation that Jesus could not be as such in
that they could not see how faith in Jesus could lead to a
better becoming into what they want to be existentially before
their lives are finished?[/quote]
I think so. It could be that they were satisfied with what they
had at the moment or that He didn't fit their worldly
preconceived notions of a Saviour. Jesus did say that those who
were poor in spirit (not necessarily in worldly goods) would be
receptive of His Kingdom. Life has a way of giving one glimpses
of how how futile it appears at times as we race around I think.
The nature of a spiritless life is self-defeating and
self-destructive since the solution doesn't rest in the problem.
para . . . . .
#Post#: 12821--------------------------------------------------
Re: Collective Subconscious
By: HOLLAND Date: August 26, 2016, 8:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
An interesting thing about the idea of the Collective
Unconscious is the idea that the human collective memories of
the past are present in each human mind though a particular mind
may not have access to the memories in question. The Collective
Unconscious is viewed on the basis of how one views human
memory.
Does memory determine our worldview?
How does it condition it?
How can we posit the idea of the Collective Unconscious from the
standpoint of our own memories?
It does affect our view of the soul. This involves an idea of
soul that presupposes a unity between all human souls, and also,
the rest of existence, a form of pantheism, or of a concept of
Oversoul such as advocated by Ralph Waldo Emerson. But is this
a simplistic conclusion drawn from general conclusions about
human memory?
*****************************************************
DIR Next Page