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#Post#: 11464--------------------------------------------------
Mary !
DIR By: twinc
Date: January 3, 2016, 1:34 pm
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God loves Mary and regards her as very very special and so do
Catholics but Protestants do not - God hails her as blessed and
so do Catholics but Protestants do not - twinc
#Post#: 11465--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mary !
DIR By: Kerry
Date: January 3, 2016, 2:17 pm
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And what is the difference between most Catholics and most
Protestants in this matter? Are not most people simply
believing what they have been taught?
#Post#: 11466--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mary !
DIR By: HOLLAND
Date: January 3, 2016, 8:40 pm
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I think twinc that you would have to explain more the
differences between Catholics and Protestants regarding Mary so
that we can see what you intend by this thread.
I do confess to agree with many Protestants that there is a
problem regarding the veneration of Mary. It leads to a kind of
creeping movement unto divinity regarding Mary that Catholic
veneration has for her. I agree with many Protestants that
reject that she can be a Paraclete such as Jesus and as the Holy
Spirit are viewed.
From what I have seen about Catholics I think that Mary is de
facto venerated and is used as an Intercessor as a substitute
for the Holy Spirit and that this belief is used to prevent the
religious libertarianism inherent within the veneration and
intercession of the Holy Spirit. Catholics demand conformity to
their rituals, their Magisterium and their Pope and this is
undermined by persons who have a personal relationship to Jesus
under the immediate intercession of the Holy Spirit. This now
mainly Protestant belief in the Spirit provides a polemic
against the Pope and Magisterium and is something that the
Catholic hierarchy has to undermine in order to support its own
authority.
Peace be with you!
#Post#: 11467--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mary !
DIR By: twinc
Date: January 4, 2016, 1:22 pm
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okay Holland lets just hold it there especially your last
sentence around which the Protestant heresy and even blasphemy
pivot - the reason or reasons that every Protestant is inspired
by the HS but Catholics, and especially the Pope, are not - this
is heresy and blasphemy of the first magnitude and seemingly
will be for the first time undermined here so don't go away -
twinc
#Post#: 11473--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mary !
DIR By: HOLLAND
Date: January 6, 2016, 3:52 pm
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I would advise you, twinc, that there are Catholic charismatics,
but to the point, if you have the immediacy of the Holy Spirit
you do not need another Paraclete or Comforter, to be found in
Mary. It is a redundancy much like a fifth wheel on a wagon.
It is obvious that if a church teaches its members to use Mary
as an intercessor, it is in effect an obstacle to the coming of
the proper and comforting realization of the Holy Spirit as the
ultimate disclosure of Jesus in the spiritual immediacy of the
here and now.
Peace be with you!
#Post#: 11477--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mary !
DIR By: Kerry
Date: January 6, 2016, 9:04 pm
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--- Quote from: HOLLAND link ---
>
> I would advise you, twinc, that there are Catholic
charismatics, but to the point, if you have the immediacy of the
Holy Spirit you do not need another Paraclete or Comforter, to
be found in Mary. It is a redundancy much like a fifth wheel on
a wagon.
>
> It is obvious that if a church teaches its members to use Mary
as an intercessor, it is in effect an obstacle to the coming of
the proper and comforting realization of the Holy Spirit as the
ultimate disclosure of Jesus in the spiritual immediacy of the
here and now.
>
> Peace be with you!
>
--- End Quote ---
I don't understand you fully. Do you think living people
praying for each other would be a similar obstacle?
I think when two or more beings are in harmony and agree in
prayer about something, that's a good thing -- even an
expression of the Holy Spirit. Remember the Spirit descended
when they were all with one accord.
#Post#: 11480--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mary !
DIR By: twinc
Date: January 8, 2016, 7:20 am
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--- Quote from: HOLLAND link ---
>
> I would advise you, twinc, that there are Catholic
charismatics, but to the point, if you have the immediacy of the
Holy Spirit you do not need another Paraclete or Comforter, to
be found in Mary. It is a redundancy much like a fifth wheel on
a wagon.
>
> It is obvious that if a church teaches its members to use Mary
as an intercessor, it is in effect an obstacle to the coming of
the proper and comforting realization of the Holy Spirit as the
ultimate disclosure of Jesus in the spiritual immediacy of the
here and now.
>
>
> Peace be with you!
>
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote from: HOLLAND link ---
>
> I would advise you, twinc, that there are Catholic
charismatics, but to the point, if you have the immediacy of the
Holy Spirit you do not need another Paraclete or Comforter, to
be found in Mary. It is a redundancy much like a fifth wheel on
a wagon.
>
> It is obvious that if a church teaches its members to use Mary
as an intercessor, it is in effect an obstacle to the coming of
the proper and comforting realization of the Holy Spirit as the
ultimate disclosure of Jesus in the spiritual immediacy of the
here and now.
>
>
> Peace be with you!
>
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote from: HOLLAND link ---
>
> I would advise you, twinc, that there are Catholic
charismatics, but to the point, if you have the immediacy of the
Holy Spirit you do not need another Paraclete or Comforter, to
be found in Mary. It is a redundancy much like a fifth wheel on
a wagon.
>
> It is obvious that if a church teaches its members to use Mary
as an intercessor, it is in effect an obstacle to the coming of
the proper and comforting realization of the Holy Spirit as the
ultimate disclosure of Jesus in the spiritual immediacy of the
here and now.
>
>
> Peace be with you!
>
--- End Quote ---
not here and now or to all and sundry[Heb.1:1-2 and 2 Peter
1:19-21 - twinc
#Post#: 11483--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mary !
DIR By: HOLLAND
Date: January 11, 2016, 8:49 pm
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--- Quote from: Kerry link ---
>
> I don't understand you fully. Do you think living people
praying for each other would be a similar obstacle?
>
> I think when two or more beings are in harmony and agree in
prayer about something, that's a good thing -- even an
expression of the Holy Spirit. Remember the Spirit descended
when they were all with one accord.
>
--- End Quote ---
No. It would not be an obstacle, Kerry.
But can the Virgin Mary serve as a de facto Comforter, Advocate
and Guide as the Holy Spirit is, in its office as a Paraclete?
I think not and that this is the main issue between Catholics
and non-Catholics regarding Mary.
Peace be with you!
#Post#: 11484--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mary !
DIR By: HOLLAND
Date: January 11, 2016, 8:56 pm
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--- Quote from: twinc link ---
>
>
> not here and now or to all and sundry[Heb.1:1-2 and 2 Peter
1:19-21 - twinc
>
--- End Quote ---
Could you expand on this, twinc? What are you wishing to affirm
is the meaning of these two passages?
Peace be with you!
#Post#: 11487--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mary !
DIR By: Kerry
Date: January 13, 2016, 12:08 am
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--- Quote from: HOLLAND link ---
>
> No. It would not be an obstacle, Kerry.
>
> But can the Virgin Mary serve as a de facto Comforter,
Advocate and Guide as the Holy Spirit is, in its office as a
Paraclete? I think not and that this is the main issue between
Catholics and non-Catholics regarding Mary.
>
> Peace be with you!
>
--- End Quote ---
I believe the Holy Spirit in anyone can act as a Comforter.
With Mary, it's not the person of Mary but the individualized
expression of the Holy Spirit in her. I think God respects the
uniqueness of the individual so how the Holy Spirit manifests is
also unique.
If we are all members of the same Body of Christ, then we will
have different gifts and different roles. I cannot expect to
have all the gifts or play all the roles myself.
1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to
another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another
divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of
tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit,
dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the
members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is
Christ.
If we reject the manifestation of the Spirit in one of God's
saints, we may be quenching the same Spirit in ourselves.
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