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#Post#: 14945--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who is failing ?
By: Amadeus Date: July 19, 2020, 2:54 pm
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[quote author=bbyrd009 link=topic=982.msg14941#msg14941
date=1595166775]
hey, at least you're addressing it, that is refreshing :)
but the truth is embedded in the Esau cycle for anyone with an
eye imo, and i am not interested in pretend conversations with
those who do not wish to change their minds, either.[/quote]
[font=times new roman]I will try to fit together some pieces
which may relate...
The 'eye' is the thing! Some things we may really see/understand
clearly, while other things are still on the blurry side and,
yes, even among sincere believers, there is probably some
blindness. On the one hand, God loves everyone of us, or so it
seems, when we read this:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:16-17
But then we read this:
"I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou
loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I
loved Jacob,
And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste
for the dragons of the wilderness.
Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and
build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They
shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them,
The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD
hath indignation for ever.
And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The LORD will be
magnified from the border of Israel." Mal. 1:2-5
It is life, or Life, and/or death that are certainly confusing
to the extent that we do not understand them.[/font]
[quote]
Esau is not condemned for eating red stew, apparently; which i
dont really get, but there it is. The same cycle compels me to
let the blood-seekers have the ground i guess
[/quote]
His liking for the red stew [pottage/soup] was similar to or
even a type of those looking for Jesus here. Did they really
find him?
"And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they
said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye
seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat
of the loaves, and were filled.
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which
endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give
unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work
the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that
ye believe on him whom he hath sent." John 6:25-29
Nothing wrong with the red soup nor with the loaves and fishes
in themselves for their purpose as part of our stewardship...[we
are stewards of what?], but consider the difference between the
red and the white. The red blood is the life of the flesh? What
do you suppose the white blood would be the Life of...? Remember
this verse?
"[God] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new
testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter
killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6
Death on the one hand is all a man has for certain when he is
born alive to his carnal mother. A contradiction? What man calls
life is rarely, if ever, what God calls Life. Our first carnal
parents killed themselves and all of their offspring including
you and me when they partook of the wrong tree in disobedience.
No more white blood! Only red blood!
That letter of death is the Bible we read... without any white
blood, if you can understand it... the flesh is there for the
Body of Christ... but unread, unopened, without white Blood
[without the Holy Spirit], it is really dead:
"And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me
first to go and bury my father.
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their
dead." Matt 8:21-22
Who is it that is to bury the dead? You see the dead and the
living may be mixed up in people's minds, but God has it right
and Jesus had it right. Do we have the mind of Christ?
There is potential there in a Bible like there was potential in
the bones Ezekiel sees in chapter 37 of the book with his name.
But then for the red and the white:
"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though
your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though
they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." Isaiah 1:18
"For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for
the LORD dwelleth in Zion." Joel 3:21
"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me,
These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have
washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the
Lamb." Rev 7:14
The life of man's flesh is his red blood according to what men
say, but also as it is written in Leviticus [7:14].
How does all of this relate to Esau? What did the first born of
God have that people up until then did not have? Life! They were
physically alive for their allotted time by the red blood, but
the white blood?
Esau was the first born son of Isaac. His birthright was what?
Whatever it was he sold it for some of that red
stew/soup/pottage that Jacob had ready. Red blood, a poor
substitute for white blood! Esau might be, or might have been,
the type or shadow the first born of God alive by the white
blood... but he sought the red blood... like the loaves and
fishes those people were after from Jesus when he rebuked them.
Esau was not condemned for partaking of red blood, but that was
the lot of carnal man. He was already condemned [John 3:18] and
as per the verse I quoted above he was already dead. Like so
many today he simply chose to stay in the death of living by the
red blood that most people choose today as well.
#Post#: 14946--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who is failing ?
By: Pia Date: July 19, 2020, 9:11 pm
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@Amadeus.
Hello again John......thank you for your very circumspect
reading and reply.
I know what you mean in all you have written, some of which, I
had also been made aware of, but by other Christians / Pastors
and such, which is why I could never quite fit in, what Jesus
had to say about it, and basically what all of us think or
believe or have heard. Often at odds with Gods Word Himself,
until He can show us into more and more Light and Truth.
So all I can really say is, "Yes, it is one of the 'harder'
issues Jesus has shown me over the years....Believe me, there
have been a few, where I absolutely just HAD to believe what He
said, whether I fully understood it or not......
Many times, I came across pastors telling me to basically just
ignore what Jesus had told me, and only go by what they said the
Bible meant by things...
So so so sad, to me, as I am sure it also is to others...
So, yeah, all I can add, is the fact, that He said it !.....So I
WILL believe Him, until it has become so crystal clear, there's
no mistaking it , ( as He has managed to make this issue also,
over all of these years . He told me that ca. 35 years ago now
)....Then He added more and more understanding, from various
other bits, along the way...Only coming to where I am with His
Words on that , this year..A couple months ago, seemed like the
final penny dropped....I'll wait and see, as often He adds more,
when I think He's already done with a particular thing lol
The same happened during many many years of Him helping me to
comprehend, that God is ONLY Love, Light, Life ( and so on
)......That sure took a while also, as almost all teachings out
there, has these ' If's, but's and maybe's ', attached to our
relationship with and In Him....Even His personality, gets lied
about a whole lot..
Anyway, will have to leave it there, as I have put it as
straight, as I was able to.....Thank you John...have a glorious
day in His wondrous Love.......
Pia
#Post#: 14948--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who is failing ?
By: James Date: July 20, 2020, 8:23 am
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[font=times new roman]Quote No son of man may die for another's
sins
BBYR.....Your question of how does one put together Jesus dieing
for our sins and the scriptures is an interesting one which I
shall answer. It will be my answer, it is how I understand
scripture and the plan of God therefore I do not expect anyone
to agree.
We are aware that in the OT the sacrifice for sin covered a
persons sin, got them back into relationship with the Lord right
up till the next time they needed to offer yet more sacrifices
for yet more sins.
The point here is that the nature of sin the root cause of a man
committing sins was never dealt with, if the law could have made
a man perfect the Lord would not have needed to design a second
way. Heb 7:11
2Cor 5:21For he (God) hath made him (Jesus) SIN for us, who
(Jesus) knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of
God in him.
I believe that Jesus was made SIN, the nature of sin, after all
what would be the point of Jesus the Lamb doing no more than the
lamb way back in the OT? That is to say dealing with the fruit
of a sin nature, which is sins but not dealing with the root
cause, Sin itself. God wanted to remove the nature of sin from
man, therefore the nature was placed into a willing pure body
that the nature of sin could be destroyed and believes could
henceforth live a life without sin (if they so choose) on earth
right now.
This is incredible, and for most Christians unbelievable, that
we could by faith receive the truth that God the Father had
delivered his many sons from the power of having to sin while on
this earth. If Jesus came only to provide for the sweet by and
by we are of all men most miserable.
Now then BBYR my answer is that Jesus was made the nature of sin
by the father, Jesus received this as his own and therefore died
for his own sin nature and in dieing he removed that nature from
all and especially those who are the household of faith.
We were made the righteousness of God in him. We had a nature
change....
John Baptist said "Behold the lamb of God, which taketh away the
sin of the world". Jesus bare (to take upon oneself and to carry
as a load) our sins So says 1 Pet 2:24, not only sins but the
nature of sin went to the cross in Jesus. Jesus took as his,
the sin nature and the sins of the world, making them his sins
his responsibility, and therefore did not die for another mans
but made the offence his own.
We might find it beyond belief that Jesus took all sins and sin
nature to the cross as his own took the sentence of death
willingly as his own. If we could embrace this demonstration of
the love of God we might then find it easier to believe that we
are right now the righteousness of God in him and free from the
need to sin. James
[/font]
#Post#: 14949--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who is failing ?
By: bbyrd009 Date: July 20, 2020, 11:13 am
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"I believe that Jesus was made SIN..."
while wadr it is likely the "FOR US" that is the most pertinent;
iow it is likely or at least possible that the only thing Jesus
changed was our perception
"We were made the righteousness of God in him. We had a nature
change..."
if only irl bore that out, i might agree; bc we also have you
make them twice the sons of hell you are, which wadr fits or
seems to much better?
So i would ask there "who is 'we?'" Bc i was "twice the son of
hell," and dont know if i have improved much since, truth be
told :)
"freed from the need to sin."
the "need" to sin? sorry, what?
doesnt Jesus make it obvious that no matter how closely you
follow the law, someone will be accusing you of "sin?" So i
suggest that "trying to stop sinning" is a fool's errand! It is
"washing the outside of the cup" imo
we overlook the "sins" of little kids, and they are remembered
no more, arent they? So believe that Jesus died as a sacrifice
for your sins for as long as you like ok, to appease a God Who
could not even look upon you otherwise, but i suggest that that
belief is Esau, and will not help you in the end, ok. As well as
not being borne out by Scripture, Who told you that you were
naked?
As for myself, i have been practicing overlooking others' sins,
to quite amazing effect actually. When ppl "sin" against you and
you dont utter a peep about it, it changes them. When you keep
being civil to them, it literally freaks them out even. If you
go so far as to cover for them well now you are walking on water
basically, imo
And one's assumptions about the outcome are what tell the tale,
imo;
do you "believe" that you might ascend to heaven after you have
died, to become an immortal, bc "Jesus died for our sins" which
btw you cannot even Quote? Further, do you believe that if you
believe that hard enough, it might come to pass?
#Post#: 14950--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who is failing ?
By: bbyrd009 Date: July 20, 2020, 11:35 am
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"BBYR.....Your question of how does one put together Jesus
dieing for our sins and the scriptures is an interesting one
which I shall answer..."
wadr the Q was about Jesus not dying for our sins, at least not
in the manner and context that we are taught, James. and fwiw i
am Mark ok :)
so again, just to be clear here, i do not fault anyone for the
belief of Esau ok; Esau is the "first-born!" But it is Jacob who
made the stew, right, and Jacob who becomes "Israel," not Esau.
understand why the pimps and hos ("sinners") are beating you
into the kingdom
#Post#: 14951--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who is failing ?
By: Ivor Date: July 20, 2020, 1:18 pm
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The ransom was paid by Jesus and we fully accept His sacrifice
yet we also know that the price sin pays is death and that has
never changed even in the last 2,000 years its just like before
Jesus that almost everyone born from Adam does die .... and we
readily accept that is what we have brought upon ourselves by
our acting upon our inherited tendency to sin and yet we also
have full faith that Jesus gift is to be with him after our
physical demise
Romans 6,23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God
is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
#Post#: 14952--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who is failing ?
By: James Date: July 20, 2020, 2:20 pm
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[font=times new roman]I did say I did not expect anyone to
agree.
1Peter 2:22 who did no sin, neither was guile found in his
mouth.........who his own self bare our sins in his own body on
the tree that [color=red]we being dead to sin, should live unto
righteousness: by whose stripes we are healed.
That verse seems pretty straight forward. Well may Peter,
like Isaiah say who (if anyone) has believed our
report.[/color][/font]
#Post#: 14953--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who is failing ?
By: bbyrd009 Date: July 20, 2020, 5:59 pm
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[quote author=James link=topic=982.msg14952#msg14952
date=1595272822]
[font=times new roman]I did say I did not expect anyone to
agree.
1Peter 2:22 who did no sin, neither was guile found in his
mouth.........who his own self bare our sins in his own body on
the tree that [color=red]we being dead to sin, should live unto
righteousness: by whose stripes we are healed.
That verse seems pretty straight forward. Well may Peter,
like Isaiah say who (if anyone) has believed our
report.[/color][/font]
[/quote]ok, but note that many "found sin" in Jesus at the time
also, imo a little kid is "dead to sin" even though they "sin"
all the time!
#Post#: 14954--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who is failing ?
By: Pia Date: July 21, 2020, 12:42 am
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[quote author=James link=topic=982.msg14952#msg14952
date=1595272822]
[font=times new roman]I did say I did not expect anyone to
agree.
1Peter 2:22 who did no sin, neither was guile found in his
mouth.........who his own self bare our sins in his own body on
the tree that [color=red]we being dead to sin, should live unto
righteousness: by whose stripes we are healed.
That verse seems pretty straight forward. Well may Peter,
like Isaiah say who (if anyone) has believed our
report.[/color][/font]
[/quote]....Yes, we have become dead to sin ( if we truly are in
Christ and have been sealed with His Holy Spirit ).....BECAUSE
Jesus became sin for us, and HE died TO sin, once.....for
all.......
Thereby becoming the firstborn of an entire new creation.
We can say that In Him, In this new creation we've become, we
ARE indeed dead to sin, because this creation, unlike those born
from the first Adam, this New Man, is not subject to sin, not
the precepts nor laws, of the first creation.....
Think of it this way...along in history, there have been quite a
few varied species of humans.........Neanderthals, Pygmies, and
then out of ??? came the Caucasian ......We don't fully
understand how 'nature' does these things.
But as far as humans being born as spirits in flesh, that is all
Gods department.
We as the children of the first Adam, could not restore Gods
Life, Love, Light a.s.o. in ourselves......So , Jesus did it and
was victorious.......So that now In Him, we have become the
children of God, through the 2nd. Adam, and our 'humanity' has
forever been altered, into a whole different creation,than had
ever been here before....but all this is in and of the Spirit,
not the flesh.
Yet, all most of us seem to be concerned with ( as we have been
taught by various religions/Priests/Pastors/Help Books ), is how
to become a better son of Adam......Than how to begin to be,
this new and awesome creation! A child of The Living God.....
how to grow the spiritual fruit, He desires to grow inside of
us......
Sorry, won't go on too much...I just think it is sad, that we
don't fully embrace our new standing In and With God.....Our
Father...
Have a blessed day James......Pia
#Post#: 14955--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who is failing ?
By: bbyrd009 Date: July 21, 2020, 10:49 am
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[quote author=Ivor link=topic=982.msg14951#msg14951
date=1595269094]
The ransom was paid by Jesus and we fully accept His sacrifice
yet we also know that the price sin pays is death and that has
never changed even in the last 2,000 years its just like before
Jesus that almost everyone born from Adam does die .... and we
readily accept that is what we have brought upon ourselves by
our acting upon our inherited tendency to sin and yet we also
have full faith that Jesus gift is to be with him after our
physical demise
Romans 6,23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God
is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
[/quote]your bargain with the grave will be annulled, Ivor,
sorry; and when the overwhelming scourge passes through, you
will be trampled ok. No son of man may die for another's sins.
Yah desires mercy, not sacrifice. We do not yet know what we
will become, but note that you say that you do? How do you
rectify these, my brother?
you might seek Writings on this "ransom" you imagine, who
required this ransom? Bam post them here, and let's see ok
Faith, and even belief i guess, are not bad things in and of
themselves; but they can be misplaced. All are deceived
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