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#Post#: 12306--------------------------------------------------
Gethsemane
DIR By: guest46
Date: March 10, 2020, 12:03 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[center]THE GARDEN OF GETHSEMANE
(Ref: Matthew 26.36+; Mark 14. 32+; Luke 22.39+;)[/center]
“...They now reach Gethsemane at the foot of the Mount of
Olives.” The word means ‘Oil-press’.
This was an enclosed piece of ground, which was apparently an
olive orchard. The Lord takes with him the inner circle of
three (Peter, James and John) and says to them, ‘Sit here while
I pray’. Christ goes forward a short space by Himself, after
asking them to keep awake and watch with Him.
The scene that follows is difficult to describe. The KJV is
inadequate here in setting forth the tremendous test,
spiritually, mentally and physically that the Lord experienced.
He said to them: ‘My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the
point of death’
Weymouth translates it ‘My soul is crushed with anguish to the
very point of death’.
Luke, a medical man, tells us that, as He prayed, the sweat
became like clots of blood dropping on the ground (22.44
Weymouth), and this shows that the Lord was not exaggerating
when He said He was at the very point of death. Those words are
not to be lessened or explained away as some expositors do.
A little while later, to the guards who arrested Him, He said,
‘this is your hour and the dark power has it’s way’ (verse 53,
Moffatt). This shows that, behind the scene, Satan and the
powers of darkness were working and having a last attempt to
murder Him before the cross. There had been a number of
attempts to do this before. eg.,
In John 8.59, we read that the Pharisees ‘took up stones to
stone Him’.
In Matthew 2. 16-18, Herod attempted to murder Him when He was a
child.
In Luke 4.29,30, the Nazarenes tried to throw Him off a cliff.
In Mark 4. 35-41, was the storm on the lake an attempt of Satan
to drown Him when He was asleep?
The truth is not forwarded by trying to minimise all this, as
some do. It is the testimony of the Gospels that Christ was at
the point of death in the Garden and this was why an angel had
to specially strengthen Him, so that He might be able to go on
to Calvary and accomplish there the mighty work of redemption
(Luke 22.43).
So many expositors miss the fact that there were two cups (of
suffering and death) that Christ mentioned. ‘This cup’ was the
one He was undergoing at that moment, of the murderous conflict
with Satan and his hosts. In Mark’s account the Lord prays
that; if possible the hour might pass from Him (Mark 14.35).
This surely means the hour He was then undergoing, not the
protracted future time of His crucifixion.
However, the cup appointed by the Father was yet future and so
were the Lord’s reactions to it:
“... the cup which My Father hath given Me, shall I not drink
it? (John 18.11, and see also 12.27).
Here, there was no seeking to avoid the cup of death at Calvary
on the cross, and we do not believe that there was any other
point in the Lord’s life when this was true, for He had come to
this earth for this very thing.
The epistle to the Hebrews revolves around ‘going on to
perfection’ (maturity) (6.1), or ‘drawing back to perdition’
(10.39). The Lord Jesus is set forth in this letter as the
supreme example of One who avoided the latter and went on to the
full end. Not only this but in chapter 11 there is a long list
of God’s people who did not falter and backslide to perdition.
Yet, if the usual interpretation of Gethsemane is accepted,
Christ did draw back, if only momentarily, in the garden. How
then can He be our example? God would be exacting from us a
higher standard of conduct than from His Son. Moreover, this
epistle contains a passage that bears directly on the happenings
in Gethsemane, and this has often been ignored by expositors of
Scripture: -
‘...Christ - Who in the days of His flesh, when he had offered
up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears to Him
that was able to save Him from death, and was heard in that He
feared; though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the
things which He suffered...’ (Heb. 5. 7,8).
This can only refer to the experience of the Son in the Garden.
Note: He was saved from death, and His prayers were heard, that
is they were answerd. Now if the usual exposition is true,
making ‘the cup’ refer to Calvary’s cross, He was not heard, for
the Father’s will was that he should drink that cup completely,
so that redemption might be an eternal reality.
We must distinguish between the two cups, and then from Hebrews
we have a scriptural confirmation that our exposition is true,
and we are delivered from the terrible idea that the Lord Jesus
Christ drew back at the last minute and tried to avoid the Cross
and all it entailed.
Satan, the murderer, was defeated, and the Lord died by an act
of His own will when the tremendous work of redemption was
completed on the cross. He had to become a curse for his people
who were under the curse of a broken law, and this could only be
by hanging and being crucified on the tree (Gal. 3.13,14. That
was God’s appointed way for redemption to be worked out, and
death in any other way or time could not be allowed. Death on
the cross was essential.
This is part of an exposition from ‘The Berean Expositor’ by
Stuart Allen
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
#Post#: 12315--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gethsemane
DIR By: Helen
Date: March 10, 2020, 2:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for that post Chris...lots of food for thought!
I'll have to re-read more slowly.
I have a feeling that His Church right now , may well be
standing in a 'Gethseman'.....
#Post#: 12344--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gethsemane
DIR By: guest46
Date: March 11, 2020, 4:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hello there,
For some reason the thread was locked when I tried to enter this
morning. I clicked on unlock and it has allowed me to make a
quick reply. So, I hope all is well now.
Thank you, Helen and all who have responded.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
#Post#: 12347--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gethsemane
DIR By: bbyrd009
Date: March 11, 2020, 5:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
"Here, there was..."
just not gonna bother with that manna deal huh c
"no seeking to avoid the cup of death at Calvary on the cross,
and we do not believe that there was any other point in the
Lord’s life when this was true, for He had come to this earth
for this very thing..."
and now, see, no one can suggest the real story without
contravening you and embarrassing you, and i guess starting an
argument? Pls at least consider...life, more abundantly, and
abandoning the Death More Abundantly thing, wadr.
what is "satan's dialectic" c? That language you are speaking in
right now?
#Post#: 12350--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gethsemane
DIR By: bbyrd009
Date: March 11, 2020, 6:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: charity link ---
>
> [center]THE GARDEN OF GETHSEMANE
> (Ref: Matthew 26.36+; Mark 14. 32+; Luke 22.39+;)[/center]
>
> “...They now reach Gethsemane at the foot of the Mount of
Olives.” The word means ‘Oil-press’.
>
> This was an enclosed piece of ground, which was apparently an
olive orchard. The Lord takes with him the inner circle of
three (Peter, James and John) and says to them, ‘Sit here while
I pray’. Christ goes forward a short space by Himself, after
asking them to keep awake and watch with Him.
>
> The scene that follows is difficult to describe. The KJV is
inadequate here in setting forth the tremendous test,
spiritually, mentally and physically that the Lord experienced.
>
> He said to them: ‘My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the
point of death’
> Weymouth translates it ‘My soul is crushed with anguish to
the very point of death’.
>
> Luke, a medical man, tells us that, as He prayed, the sweat
became like clots of blood dropping on the ground (22.44
Weymouth), and this shows that the Lord was not exaggerating
when He said He was at the very point of death. Those words are
not to be lessened or explained away as some expositors do.
>
> A little while later, to the guards who arrested Him, He said,
‘this is your hour and the dark power has it’s way’ (verse 53,
Moffatt). This shows that, behind the scene, Satan and the
powers of darkness were working and having a last attempt to
murder Him before the cross. There had been a number of
attempts to do this before. eg.,
>
> In John 8.59, we read that the Pharisees ‘took up stones to
stone Him’.
> In Matthew 2. 16-18, Herod attempted to murder Him when He was
a child.
> In Luke 4.29,30, the Nazarenes tried to throw Him off a cliff.
> In Mark 4. 35-41, was the storm on the lake an attempt of
Satan to drown Him when He was asleep?
>
> The truth is not forwarded by trying to minimise all this, as
some do. It is the testimony of the Gospels that Christ was at
the point of death in the Garden and this was why an angel had
to specially strengthen Him, so that He might be able to go on
to Calvary and accomplish there the mighty work of redemption
(Luke 22.43).
>
> So many expositors miss the fact that there were two cups (of
suffering and death) that Christ mentioned. ‘This cup’ was the
one He was undergoing at that moment, of the murderous conflict
with Satan and his hosts. In Mark’s account the Lord prays
that; if possible the hour might pass from Him (Mark 14.35).
This surely means the hour He was then undergoing, not the
protracted future time of His crucifixion.
>
> However, the cup appointed by the Father was yet future and so
were the Lord’s reactions to it:
>
> “... the cup which My Father hath given Me, shall I not drink
it? (John 18.11, and see also 12.27).
>
> Here, there was no seeking to avoid the cup of death at
Calvary on the cross, and we do not believe that there was any
other point in the Lord’s life when this was true, for He had
come to this earth for this very thing.
>
> The epistle to the Hebrews revolves around ‘going on to
perfection’ (maturity) (6.1), or ‘drawing back to perdition’
(10.39). The Lord Jesus is set forth in this letter as the
supreme example of One who avoided the latter and went on to the
full end. Not only this but in chapter 11 there is a long list
of God’s people who did not falter and backslide to perdition.
>
> Yet, if the usual interpretation of Gethsemane is accepted,
Christ did draw back, if only momentarily, in the garden. How
then can He be our example? God would be exacting from us a
higher standard of conduct than from His Son. Moreover, this
epistle contains a passage that bears directly on the happenings
in Gethsemane, and this has often been ignored by expositors of
Scripture: -
>
> ‘...Christ - Who in the days of His flesh, when he had offered
up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears to Him
that was able to save Him from death, and was heard in that He
feared; though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the
things which He suffered...’ (Heb. 5. 7,8).
>
> This can only refer to the experience of the Son in the
Garden.
>
> Note: He was saved from death, and His prayers were heard,
that is they were answerd. Now if the usual exposition is true,
making ‘the cup’ refer to Calvary’s cross, He was not heard, for
the Father’s will was that he should drink that cup completely,
so that redemption might be an eternal reality.
>
> We must distinguish between the two cups, and then from
Hebrews we have a scriptural confirmation that our exposition is
true, and we are delivered from the terrible idea that the Lord
Jesus Christ drew back at the last minute and tried to avoid the
Cross and all it entailed.
>
> Satan, the murderer, was defeated, and the Lord died by an act
of His own will when the tremendous work of redemption was
completed on the cross. He had to become a curse for his people
who were under the curse of a broken law, and this could only be
by hanging and being crucified on the tree (Gal. 3.13,14. That
was God’s appointed way for redemption to be worked out, and
death in any other way or time could not be allowed. Death on
the cross was essential.
>
> This is part of an exposition from ‘The Berean Expositor’ by
Stuart Allen
>
> Thank you
> In Christ Jesus
> Chris
>
--- End Quote ---
we're tired of this manna, give us some meat!
#Post#: 12352--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gethsemane
DIR By: guest46
Date: March 11, 2020, 6:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bbyrd009 link ---
>
> "Here, there was..."
> just not gonna bother with that manna deal huh c
>
> "no seeking to avoid the cup of death at Calvary on the cross,
and we do not believe that there was any other point in the
Lord’s life when this was true, for He had come to this earth
for this very thing..."
> and now, see, no one can suggest the real story without
contravening you and embarrassing you, and i guess starting an
argument? Pls at least consider...life, more abundantly, and
abandoning the Death More Abundantly thing, wadr.
>
> what is "satan's dialectic" c? That language you are speaking
in right now?
>
--- End Quote ---
Hello @bbyrd009,
Forgive me, but I don't understand. Would you please rephrase
this, so that I can understand what you are referring to. For I
do want to. I am not one who can understand sarcasm or irony
very well. I need direct speech. :)
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
#Post#: 12353--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gethsemane
DIR By: Episkopay
Date: March 11, 2020, 6:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bbyrd009 link ---
>
> "Here, there was..."
> just not gonna bother with that manna deal huh c
>
> "no seeking to avoid the cup of death at Calvary on the cross,
and we do not believe that there was any other point in the
Lord’s life when this was true, for He had come to this earth
for this very thing..."
> and now, see, no one can suggest the real story without
contravening you and embarrassing you, and i guess starting an
argument? Pls at least consider...life, more abundantly, and
abandoning the Death More Abundantly thing, wadr.
>
> what is "satan's dialectic" c? That language you are speaking
in right now?
>
--- End Quote ---
Hey Mark. I was wondering if you could state your views on
"death more abundantly" and "satan's dialectic" in very precise
terms...on their own thread perhaps. And in a way that defines
them thoroughly? So we could discuss these issue.
That would be a big help for us. :)
#Post#: 12363--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gethsemane
DIR By: Amadeus
Date: March 11, 2020, 9:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bbyrd009 link ---
>
> we're tired of this manna, give us some meat!
>
--- End Quote ---
What is the meat of the matter?
Jesus came in the flesh with all of the temptations of the flesh
within him. That is to say he looked at women, but then turned
his head away. He looked to material riches, but refused to
seriously consider leaning on them. He looked at the offered
power of leadership, but would not take what people would not
give him.
What was the difference between Jesus and us? Our history! All
of us sinned before we heard God's call to us. Have we sinned
since answering that call?
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Rom
3:23
But then we see Jesus:
"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the
feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like
as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:15
He started his walk as a man with clean slate, [that is with no
sin], and a full larder, [all of the Word of God].
We see some of his temptations on the mountain with the devil
and again in Gethsemene. He overcame them all by the power
within him. That was done certainly as an example to us as to
what we could do, when it became a possibility:
"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible,
but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark
10:27
So Jesus went ahead according to God's plan to make it a
possibility for us to do what he was doing and did: overcome the
world!
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have
peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good
cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33
First our slate was clean... but then we, that is the world of
me [of the "me" of one of us], needed to be overcome so that we,
like Jesus, would not sin at all. How could this be possible.
Remember what Mark wrote?
"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible,
but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark
10:27
But then recall what Paul wrote here:
"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of
this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the
hope of glory:
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all
wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working,
which worketh in me mightily." Col 1:27-29
For God all things are possible and if He is allowed to work in
us? For this reason in another place Apostle Paul warns us:
"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19
The Holy Spirit of God in us, if allowed to work and given the
proper nourishment [the flesh and blood of Jesus] will overcome
the world of my flesh and of your flesh and will build something
in each of us that will never die and need never leave us. Can
we be one of the perfected fitted parts of the Body of Christ?
The choice is always ours. There are of course rewards for any
who overcomes and endures to the end their course with Him. But
too many want to put the cart before the horse and get no where
at all.
#Post#: 12376--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gethsemane
DIR By: Helen
Date: March 11, 2020, 12:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Episkopay link ---
>
> Hey Mark. I was wondering if you could state your views on
"death more abundantly" and "satan's dialectic" in very precise
terms...on their own thread perhaps. And in a way that defines
them thoroughly? So we could discuss these issue.
>
> That would be a big help for us. :)
>
--- End Quote ---
Very good idea.
Mark likes very few words...the trouble is I don't follow
innuendos , hints , or veiled meanings. If we know what was
being said , we could agree or disagree with some knowledge.
I know @Amedaus 'get it' more than I do...but, I am a bit thick,
and it takes time to get at the hidden truths.
#Post#: 12382--------------------------------------------------
Re: Gethsemane
DIR By: Willie T
Date: March 11, 2020, 12:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Helen link ---
>
> Very good idea.
> Mark likes very few words...the trouble is I don't follow
innuendos , hints , or veiled meanings. If we know what was
being said , we could agree or disagree with some knowledge.
>
> I know @Amedaus 'get it' more than I do...but, I am a bit
thick, and it takes time to get at the hidden truths.
>
--- End Quote ---
I think Byrd must have overlooked half of my SIGNATURE.
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