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#Post#: 10385--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dogmatism, etc.
By: Episkopay Date: February 12, 2020, 10:02 am
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People hold to things for different reasons. Some people grow up
with certain beliefs...and for them that's all there is. But
some people have put a lot more time and effort into thinking
the ideas through...with God's help of course...to see what is
actually being propagated...and over time have moved this way or
that away from what was once previously held. And this is is not
always to the good...although I think it necessary to "travel"
in our minds" to see new places.
In Hebrew the word for "meditate" means to walk in the mind.
Now coupled with the willingness to be critical in one's
thinking is God's intervention by the Holy Spirit. So people
will divide over how intimacy with God is not only possible but
desirable. And they who are opposed to what they have not
experienced, do so, with as much conviction as they who have
gone further on in the Christian walk. And how is this possible?
The bible. So then it is very easy to stumble over the words of
the bible...and even Christ Himself. It says so in the bible. In
fact, I think that until we have reached the full stature of
Christ...we all stumble over one or more aspects of God's will
and ways.
I think it is very healthy, dogmatic certainties aside, to
investigate the experience of others....AWAY from opinions and
dogmatic stances based on a certain reading of the word...in
order to find new avenues to the fulfillment of that calling in
the Lord.
If we are true seekers then we will easily lay aside our various
viewpoints in order to look at those of others. But the dogmatic
stuff gets in the way of that...that's when fruitless arguments
arise that have no point all. There is nothing edifying in that.
So I tend to avoid vain discussions when I see that
dogmatism...based on a very human appraisal of what is written
in the bible...being presented as having more importance than an
open discussion.
So then disagreements can arise...but there is such a thing as
the truth. But the truth is that which brings life...not just
opinions. So to me, the honesty of a believer should be in
regards to speaking things that help others into life....and
fortify them against evil and hurtful trends we see...not just
in the world...but also in the churches. :) And above all
dogmatic ideologies taken from reading certain verses in a way
that negates the whole counsel of God.
#Post#: 10387--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dogmatism, etc.
By: Episkopay Date: February 12, 2020, 10:28 am
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[quote author=Helen link=topic=707.msg10320#msg10320
date=1581461636]
Agree, we have all seen people who preach what they believe , or
that which they have chosen to believe.
The goal for this Site was to build a safe place without
intimidation by overbearing people.
Now whether it can ever be accomplish who knows.
Maybe it will just implode and vanish away. But that was our
hope in starting it.
I myself are a far from being a shrinking violet , or slow to
come forward to 'say my bit' or argue my point.
CB doesn't seem to care who say what to whom. So I was just 'in
there like the rest of them'....not sure the bad habit has
served me well. I fell into the same trap yesterday right
here...now I have acquired habits which I don't like in
myself... :(
We just wanted something different. If it end up just the same,
then we have failed.
Are you saying that you don't agree that adding IMHO, "as I see
it", could keep thing open for actually having a discussion and
an end of arguments?
When someone posts saying that a persons comments 'are not
sitting at all well',( I have actually forgotten the actual
words used) ..then the original poster responds with a comment -
"You don't have to be in this thread" ( or words similar) it
doesn't sound to me as if the person has and desire at all for
an honest discussion, but just wished to tell us what we need to
believe. Maybe not, but that is how it came across.
On reading it, inwardly said 'ouch'.
There is a blog area that shows every post made in it just like
any other post. ( In "Posts since last visit"list) so no post
would be missed It's there if a person just wants to teach
something and not have any discussion feedback.
This is what I meant as dogma. Maybe I used the wrong word?
Obviously on the foundations of our faith we must stand firm and
unmoved...but "for me" other areas which are many , need to be
held less tightly.
Scott maybe this is a forum dilemma that can never be solved
anywhere on the internet. We thought we would give this LW Site
one more kick at the can, when we saw a post saying a less
argumentative and bullying place would be nice as a reprieve
from constant CB bickering.
( of which I am not guiltless by far)
Then I got a couple of inboxes to me saying they were fed up and
sadly thinking of leaving CB...and here was this site just
sitting here.."doing nothing" so I linked them in.
It is God who builds the house, it will either stand or fall.
It's not mine to make it happen. I was not looking for a
project. :)
As you know, I am no intellectual poster, ( sick and absent form
school most of my early schooling life, and it shows)
I have no idea if I have really addressed what you asked me
here. Sorry.
[/quote]
There is a diabolical spirit in the world that says that we must
cater to the perceived offenses caused by they who are seen to
be perpetrating "micro aggressions" against them. So then in our
time the permanent victim mentality runs the show. (whereas
before we used to honour things like courage and truth). So when
I see people going around looking to be offended...by the truth
no less...it reminds me of that spirit in the world...where
everyone gathers around the poor person (this is called the
snowflake mentality) who feels slighted by the freedoms of
others. So then free speech is under attack. In Canada we have a
new law (C16) whereby all you need to prosecute someone is the
FEELING of being slighted by another...especially when based on
a group identity. So then free speech is now going to be limited
by the government whenever a person feels that their "truth" is
not being respected. We are seeing this in the "trans" community
(a very small group) where "group identity" trumps individuals
and the right to free speech. It is the tyranny of the victim.
When Peter tried to console "poor" Jesus on not going to
Jerusalem where He was going to suffer...Jesus responds with
"get behind me Satan." (you can just hear the snowflakes melting
around that statement ;) )
And this forum and CB are not without that influence. It is very
strong in the world among post-modernist sensitivity types where
truth is subjectified as being...my truth.
So on a Christian forum I would hope that people who cry
wolf...or victim...would be measured against that trend in the
world. I mean Jesus was VERY offensive to people...and still
is...obviously.
Matthew 11:6
6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
I don't see where the people being offended so easily are given
a platform with God. Truth IS offensive. That's why so few
people understand and abide the truth. And we are living in the
end times where people will not be able to endure sound
doctrine. All of this needs to be in the mix...together with the
cries of offenses given by people. Judging with a righteous
judgment is not so easy given all these variables! :)
#Post#: 10395--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dogmatism, etc.
By: Helen Date: February 12, 2020, 11:39 am
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[quote author=Episkopay link=topic=707.msg10387#msg10387
date=1581524883]
Truth IS offensive. That's why so few people understand and
abide the truth. And we are living in the end times where people
will not be able to endure sound doctrine. All of this needs to
be in the mix...together with the cries of offenses given by
people. Judging with a righteous judgment is not so easy given
all these variables! :)
[/quote]
Thank you for your response John.
The thing is ...you throw around the word 'truth' , which
obviously you mean "your truth"... but what about the other
people who do not see your truth, as truth at all? You give no
room here at all for you just maybe, getting it a tiny bit
wrong!!
You are convinced that what you see, you see clearly...yet many
other see something totally different to you.
Case in point...you believe that maybe you will make it into
heaven, and that your salvation is not a does deal.
I believe that our salvation is totally sure , and that the only
thing hanging in the balance is our calling and election, and
filling the place in the kingdom that Jesus said He was going to
prepare.
You see Paul as fearing that he would miss the mark and end up
not saved.
I see Paul totally secure , yet running to attain the place what
God had called him to, in election.
So ..when you talk about 'the truth is offensive' , you are
speaking of 'your truth'. You and all of us, do not and will
not know until That Day, how clearly we actually understood
God's word.
This is where the problem is with dogmatism.
When people insist that what they believe is correct and
others have it 'wrong.'
The way you see salvation is fine , for you.
I was just saying that even though you were secure in how you
see things...does not mean that you are indeed 100%
correct...therefore a little gesture of -
"This is how I see it", or IMHO , helps what you are sharing to
slide down easier, rather than the ..."This is the way it is"
attitude.
Just saying .
#Post#: 10405--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dogmatism, etc.
By: ScottA Date: February 12, 2020, 2:16 pm
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[quote author=bbyrd009 link=topic=707.msg10380#msg10380
date=1581520002]
doesnt that have to mean that one is saying they know the truth,
Scott? :)
[/quote]
It means that God decides. But if we have a rule that doesn't
allow for it...it's a bad rule.
#Post#: 10407--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dogmatism, etc.
By: ScottA Date: February 12, 2020, 2:25 pm
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[quote author=Willie T link=topic=707.msg10378#msg10378
date=1581514869]
Considering the typical manner in which [B]"correction !!!"[/B]
is so gleefully administered by so many "Christians" just
looking for someone to bash over the head with a Bible, I would
say it would probably at least be against the will of God in its
delivery.
[/quote]
So...God has a proven system of revealing His truth using
specific people of His choosing...and it's against His own will?
That is putting limits on God.
#Post#: 10413--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dogmatism, etc.
By: Amadeus Date: February 12, 2020, 4:48 pm
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[quote author=bbyrd009 link=topic=707.msg10380#msg10380
date=1581520002]
doesnt that have to mean that one is saying they know the truth,
Scott? :)
[/quote]
Perhaps the one speaking really is speaking the truth but few or
even none of the listeners are able to hear it.
Did Jesus always speak the truth?
"And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why
do ye not believe me?
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them
not, because ye are not of God." John 8:45-47
Then to us:
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear
what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we
shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2
How much like Him are any of us now?
#Post#: 10414--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dogmatism, etc.
By: Willie T Date: February 12, 2020, 4:57 pm
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One thing that always struck me about the story of The Rich
Young Ruler is that when Jesus spoke to him, actually before He
even spoke a word, we are told that [B]"He looked at him and
loved him."[/B] I seldom see that in all the
[I][U]"correcting"[/I] so many people do… swearing they
are doing God's will.
#Post#: 10415--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dogmatism, etc.
By: Amadeus Date: February 12, 2020, 5:05 pm
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[quote author=Episkopay link=topic=707.msg10387#msg10387
date=1581524883]
So on a Christian forum I would hope that people who cry
wolf...or victim...would be measured against that trend in the
world. I mean Jesus was VERY offensive to people...and still
is...obviously.
Matthew 11:6
6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
I don't see where the people being offended so easily are given
a platform with God. Truth IS offensive. That's why so few
people understand and abide the truth. And we are living in the
end times where people will not be able to endure sound
doctrine. All of this needs to be in the mix...together with the
cries of offenses given by people. Judging with a righteous
judgment is not so easy given all these variables! :)
[/quote]
Yes, truth is very offensive to the flesh. People who have a
mixture of truth and flesh [double-minded] are offended by some
things which should not offend them. Who does not in some
measure have a bit of flesh mixed with the truth they do have?
This is why judgment in the end of the matter belongs to God.
Only someone who has completely overcome the world of his own
flesh most certainly will never be offended by God's Truth.
Jesus said that He is the Truth [John 14:6] and so He is, but
how many are able right now and always to see him clearly and to
know him perfectly?
What are we seeing and where are we walking now?
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in
Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the
Spirit." Rom 8:1
#Post#: 10421--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dogmatism, etc.
By: Helen Date: February 12, 2020, 8:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Willie T link=topic=707.msg10414#msg10414
date=1581548279]
One thing that always struck me about the story of The Rich
Young Ruler is that when Jesus spoke to him, actually before He
even spoke a word, we are told that [B]"He looked at him and
loved him."[/B] I seldom see that in all the
[I][U]"correcting"[/I] so many people do… swearing they are
doing God's will.
[/quote]
Glad that you said that.
If I had a $ for every time ...I have mentioned- "attitude,
attitude, attitude"... On deaf ears.
Only to be told "truth offends"... and to me that is just a cop
out.
And no one seems to want to agree , or step up to the plate and
honestly say-
"Yes it's truth , as I see it "
So the bottom line is ...that what they are really saying is
..
"How I see it IS how it actually is."
bbyrd009 has been saying this forever , that people so
confidently claim have to have Absolute Truth"
We hear so very few say - "I honestly believe that I am right,
but maybe I don't have the whole picture yet."
I guess that is why it is so refreshing when we actually DO hear
someone say that!
Sorry [member=49]bbyrd009[/member] I wish we had a tag like this
@ on here to grab a persons attention. :(
#Post#: 10422--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dogmatism, etc.
By: Nancy Date: February 12, 2020, 8:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Helen link=topic=707.msg10421#msg10421
date=1581559205]
Glad that you said that.
If I had a $ for every time ...I have mentioned- "attitude,
attitude, attitude". On deaf ears.
Only to be told "truth offends"... and to me that is just a cop
out.
And no one seems to want to agree , or step up to the plate and
honestly say-
"Yes it's truth , as I see it "
So the bottom line is ...that what they are really saying is
..
"How I see it is how it actually is."
bbyrd009 has been saying this forever , that people so
confidently claim have to have Absolute Truth"
We hear so very few say - "I honestly believe that I am right,
but maybe I don't have the whole picture yet."
I guess that is why it is so refreshing when we actually DO hear
someone say that!
Sorry [member=49]bbyrd009[/member] I wish we had a tag like this
@ on here to grab a persons attention. :(
[/quote]
Even if someone on these sites IS sharing the "truth", who
want's to listen to in your face attitude? And, what if that
person has just not grown enough to understand humility yet?
And, so what if they are not as far along in their faith to
actually see the truth...yet? If they are honestly seeking
God's truth...they will find it one way or the other.
I was also wondering if we could tag people here, guess not :/
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