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#Post#: 10305--------------------------------------------------
Dogmatism, etc.
By: ScottA Date: February 11, 2020, 3:14 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Not wanting to hijack the other thread, I thought a new topic
might be in order. This is from the other thread:
[quote author=Helen link=topic=684.msg10300#msg10300
date=1581452517]
I do wish that a few more people would use the words - "I
personally believe"...or as Mike has here used IMHO.
It's the dogmatism of our belief systems which seem to rub each
other up the wrong way.
People may, and so often do, use the phrase - "This is what
the bible says , so it is correct ."
A flat statement , who can argue with that! It stops the
discussion dead, and the discussion then changes to an argument.
Every single one of us are convinced that -" THIS is what the
bible says.." , or we would never be where we are.
But the problem never lays in The Bible, the problem is within
each individuals belief system.
We all believe that 'we' have correctly understood the verses
.
Therefore I see no place for dogmatism.
Every single one of us may well have got just 'something' wrong!
How about allowing room for that little thought.
And yes, the finger points at me too/first.
If we are really going to have a place here of safety, comfort,
and different , then I believe we will all have to adopt a few
more habits of - " This is how I see it", " This is what I
believe" , and IMHO 's ,.... if we are not going to just end up
right back where we have come from!!!
[/quote]
I agree with most of what you have said there Helen. I am just
not sure we have a clear idea of the problem or a solution, if
we just limit dogmatism.
The problem as I see it, is that God has confounded all language
at Babel (which has not been rescinded, except in Christ by the
Holy Spirit), and yet most people see language as if their own
understanding is all that matters, and therefore is all that is
true.
As such, we see more people leaning on and even preaching their
own understanding, and debating, rather than listening or asking
questions. Certainly, few if any among the women who make up the
bride of Christ, are silent in church. Which brings up the idea
of the greatest potential loss: You see, I did not just say what
I said about silence in the church, by my language skills
regarding the ancient text or even the context, but rather by
the spirit of God...which we have been repeatedly told to hear.
So, we can continue the pattern of the history of God's people,
and just keep killing the prophets, becoming less spiritually
inclined generation by generation, or keep starting new forum
sites, or we can test all spirits without distinguishing the
flow.
What I recommend, is that we either decide that we enjoy and are
here to chew on the fat of our own understanding against the
counsel of scripture, or stop with the conjecture and making
claims on belief rather than actual knowledge, stop using one
passage of scripture to argue against another passage of
scripture, and stop preaching half-truths.
I guess I just thought that is what this site was suppose to be.
Was I wrong?
#Post#: 10309--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dogmatism, etc.
By: guest36 Date: February 11, 2020, 4:06 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I presume you to have read the first paragraph of the forum's
registration agreement.
I'm also beginning to think that what some of us depricate is
when two members have opposing convictions (such as faith alone
versus faith without works being dead) and they have alternately
submitted two posts countering each other, then 'debate' becomes
'argument', with each striving to prove the other to be wrong,
when they ought really be concentrating on trying to see the
reasoning behind the others PoV.
We can only rely upon God's Holy Spirit's convicting influence
towards self moderation to raise the level of 'what we are'.
#Post#: 10315--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dogmatism, etc.
By: ScottA Date: February 11, 2020, 4:35 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mike Waters link=topic=707.msg10309#msg10309
date=1581458807]
I presume you to have read the first paragraph of the forum's
registration agreement.
I'm also beginning to think that what some of us depricate is
when two members have opposing convictions (such as faith alone
versus faith without works being dead) and they have alternately
submitted two posts countering each other, then 'debate' becomes
'argument', with each striving to prove the other to be wrong,
when they ought really be concentrating on trying to see the
reasoning behind the others PoV.
We can only rely upon God's Holy Spirit's convicting influence
towards self moderation to raise the level of 'what we are'.
[/quote]
I'm sure I never read the whole registration agreement. Do you
know where it might be posted? I don't see it anywhere.
But I was under the impression that the purpose of the site was
not just to be nice. Nice is good, but the truth can sometimes
be painful, and I would hate to think I agreed not to be
truthful.
#Post#: 10320--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dogmatism, etc.
By: Helen Date: February 11, 2020, 4:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=ScottA link=topic=707.msg10305#msg10305
date=1581455670]
. This is from the other thread:
I agree with most of what you have said there Helen. I am just
not sure we have a clear idea of the problem or a solution, if
we just limit dogmatism.
The problem as I see it, is that God has confounded all language
at Babel (which has not been rescinded, except in Christ by the
Holy Spirit), and yet most people see language as if their own
understanding is all that matters, and therefore is all that is
true.
As such, we see more people leaning on and even preaching their
own understanding, and debating, rather than listening or asking
questions. Certainly, few if any among the women who make up the
bride of Christ, are silent in church. Which brings up the idea
of the greatest potential loss: You see, I did not just say what
I said about silence in the church, by my language skills
regarding the ancient text or even the context, but rather by
the spirit of God...which we have been repeatedly told to hear.
So, we can continue the pattern of the history of God's people,
and just keep killing the prophets, becoming less spiritually
inclined generation by generation, or keep starting new forum
sites, or we can test all spirits without distinguishing the
flow.
What I recommend, is that we either decide that we enjoy and are
here to chew on the fat of our own understanding against the
counsel of scripture, or stop with the conjecture and making
claims on belief rather than actual knowledge, stop using one
passage of scripture to argue against another passage of
scripture, and stop preaching half-truths.
I guess I just thought that is what this site was suppose to be.
Was I wrong?
[/quote]
Agree, we have all seen people who preach what they believe , or
that which they have chosen to believe.
The goal for this Site was to build a safe place without
intimidation by overbearing people.
Now whether it can ever be accomplish who knows.
Maybe it will just implode and vanish away. But that was our
hope in starting it.
I myself are a far from being a shrinking violet , or slow to
come forward to 'say my bit' or argue my point.
CB doesn't seem to care who say what to whom. So I was just 'in
there like the rest of them'....not sure the bad habit has
served me well. I fell into the same trap yesterday right
here...now I have acquired habits which I don't like in
myself... :(
We just wanted something different. If it end up just the same,
then we have failed.
Are you saying that you don't agree that adding IMHO, "as I see
it", could keep thing open for actually having a discussion and
an end of arguments?
When someone posts saying that a persons comments 'are not
sitting at all well',( I have actually forgotten the actual
words used) ..then the original poster responds with a comment -
"You don't have to be in this thread" ( or words similar) it
doesn't sound to me as if the person has and desire at all for
an honest discussion, but just wished to tell us what we need to
believe. Maybe not, but that is how it came across.
On reading it, inwardly said 'ouch'.
There is a blog area that shows every post made in it just like
any other post. ( In "Posts since last visit"list) so no post
would be missed It's there if a person just wants to teach
something and not have any discussion feedback.
This is what I meant as dogma. Maybe I used the wrong word?
Obviously on the foundations of our faith we must stand firm and
unmoved...but "for me" other areas which are many , need to be
held less tightly.
Scott maybe this is a forum dilemma that can never be solved
anywhere on the internet. We thought we would give this LW Site
one more kick at the can, when we saw a post saying a less
argumentative and bullying place would be nice as a reprieve
from constant CB bickering.
( of which I am not guiltless by far)
Then I got a couple of inboxes to me saying they were fed up and
sadly thinking of leaving CB...and here was this site just
sitting here.."doing nothing" so I linked them in.
It is God who builds the house, it will either stand or fall.
It's not mine to make it happen. I was not looking for a
project. :)
As you know, I am no intellectual poster, ( sick and absent form
school most of my early schooling life, and it shows)
I have no idea if I have really addressed what you asked me
here. Sorry.
#Post#: 10323--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dogmatism, etc.
By: Helen Date: February 11, 2020, 5:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=ScottA link=topic=707.msg10315#msg10315
date=1581460559]
I'm sure I never read the whole registration agreement. Do you
know where it might be posted? I don't see it anywhere.
But I was under the impression that the purpose of the site was
not just to be nice. Nice is good, but the truth can sometimes
be painful, and I would hate to think I agreed not to be
truthful.
[/quote]
And you were right Scott.
That is what we want. And disagreement is healthy , buy why does
it have to be dogmatically so ?
I've said before , even to the Calvinists 'over there'..."it's
not what you say, it is how you say it. "
We can each be sure on what we believe, and see the other person
a wrong, but how do we each share 'where we are' if one person
insists -" This is the only way it is, the bible says so." End
of conversation.
I can also say- " The bible says so, to me ". while we have two
different understandings of the interpretation of the said
verses!
Or, are you also saying that how you understand the bible is for
sure 100% what God's full intent is?
You wouldn't be the first ! :)
#Post#: 10326--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dogmatism, etc.
By: Ivor Date: February 11, 2020, 5:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
God prepares a banquet and we bring our offering and add it to
the table so that anyone can taste and either nibble, devour or
reject it.. we all have different tastes and fill up on what we
choose that day. It may be a three course meal or just a tasty
snack because we are all different
Say what you believe and we do get it.. but don't labour the
point, some posters fill a thread simply going over and over the
same point doggedly trying to browbeat everyone into submission
and stuff that particular morsel down everyone's throat
#Post#: 10328--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dogmatism, etc.
By: guest36 Date: February 11, 2020, 5:34 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=ScottA link=topic=707.msg10315#msg10315
date=1581460559]
I'm sure I never read the whole registration agreement. Do you
know where it might be posted? I don't see it anywhere.
[/quote]
Here's what it says:
"I addition to the following standard registration conditions
you are required to agree to abide by the forum's catholic (all
embracing) ethos; which is to accept that every member who might
conceivably be part of the 'Body of Christ' (yourself included)
is unlikely to be either wholly right or wholly wrong, and to
respond to other members accordingly."
#Post#: 10329--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dogmatism, etc.
By: guest36 Date: February 11, 2020, 5:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ivor link=topic=707.msg10326#msg10326
date=1581463073]
God prepares a banquet and we bring our offering and add it to
the table so that anyone can taste and either nibble, devour or
reject it.. we all have different tastes and fill up on what we
choose that day. It may be a three course meal or just a tasty
snack because we are all different
Say what you believe and we do get it.. but don't labour the
point, some posters fill a thread simply going over and over the
same point doggedly trying to browbeat everyone into submission
and stuff that particular morsel down everyone's throat
[/quote]
I guess broad shoulders such as yours are needed to "help the
world go round".
#Post#: 10336--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dogmatism, etc.
By: ScottA Date: February 11, 2020, 7:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Helen link=topic=707.msg10320#msg10320
date=1581461636]
Agree, we have all seen people who preach what they believe , or
that which they have chosen to believe.
The goal for this Site was to build a safe place without
intimidation by overbearing people.
Now whether it can ever be accomplish who knows.
Maybe it will just implode and vanish away. But that was our
hope in starting it.
I myself are a far from being a shrinking violet , or slow to
come forward to 'say my bit' or argue my point.
CB doesn't seem to care who say what to whom. So I was just 'in
there like the rest of them'....not sure the bad habit has
served me well. I fell into the same trap yesterday right
here...now I have acquired habits which I don't like in
myself... :(
We just wanted something different. If it end up just the same,
then we have failed.
Are you saying that you don't agree that adding IMHO, "as I see
it", could keep thing open for actually having a discussion and
an end of arguments?
When someone posts saying that a persons comments 'are not
sitting at all well',( I have actually forgotten the actual
words used) ..then the original poster responds with a comment -
"You don't have to be in this thread" ( or words similar) it
doesn't sound to me as if the person has and desire at all for
an honest discussion, but just wished to tell us what we need to
believe. Maybe not, but that is how it came across.
On reading it, inwardly said 'ouch'.
There is a blog area that shows every post made in it just like
any other post. ( In "Posts since last visit"list) so no post
would be missed It's there if a person just wants to teach
something and not have any discussion feedback.
This is what I meant as dogma. Maybe I used the wrong word?
Obviously on the foundations of our faith we must stand firm and
unmoved...but "for me" other areas which are many , need to be
held less tightly.
Scott maybe this is a forum dilemma that can never be solved
anywhere on the internet. We thought we would give this LW Site
one more kick at the can, when we saw a post saying a less
argumentative and bullying place would be nice as a reprieve
from constant CB bickering.
( of which I am not guiltless by far)
Then I got a couple of inboxes to me saying they were fed up and
sadly thinking of leaving CB...and here was this site just
sitting here.."doing nothing" so I linked them in.
It is God who builds the house, it will either stand or fall.
It's not mine to make it happen. I was not looking for a
project. :)
As you know, I am no intellectual poster, ( sick and absent form
school most of my early schooling life, and it shows)
I have no idea if I have really addressed what you asked me
here. Sorry.
[/quote]
I am happy with your efforts Helen and want to support it. But
let me see if I can elaborate the answer to your question:
"Are you saying that you don't agree that adding IMHO, "as I see
it", could keep thing open for actually having a discussion and
an end of arguments?"
It just seems to me that "IMHO" doesn't address the problem. It
seems more like saying "I'm sorry" when one doesn't really mean
it, like an excuse that makes it okay to way in with opinion on
a fact that cannot be disputed...as if the gray areas of our
faith were not luke warm. They are.
Let your answers be Yeah or Nah.
This is difficult for me, because I could spend my whole life,
forgetting the time, and drown myself in all this discussion as
a mostly wonderful substitute for time with God--I love it. But
at the same time, not that it never happens, but for the most
part I am not chitchatting opinion, but speaking the truth as
from God. We are not supposed to be the one speaking...and for
the most part, I don't. I don't debate and I don't discuss. I
just freely give what has been given to me.
So, when I see all the opinion and conjecture and claims based
of half-truths and preaching by those who should be learning not
teaching, I see it as the problem that is of issue here. And the
scriptures explain it quite clearly as the confounding of all
language by God. And here we are dealing with it and not taking
the counsel of Paul and Jesus to be silent and let the Holy
Spirit lead us unto all truth.
Alternatively, rather than "IMHO", I would rather see less
opinion and more question marks.
#Post#: 10338--------------------------------------------------
Re: Dogmatism, etc.
By: Willie T Date: February 11, 2020, 7:05 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mike Waters link=topic=707.msg10309#msg10309
date=1581458807]
I presume you to have read the first paragraph of the forum's
registration agreement.
I'm also beginning to think that what some of us depricate is
when two members have opposing convictions (such as faith alone
versus faith without works being dead) and they have alternately
submitted two posts countering each other, then 'debate' becomes
'argument', with each striving to prove the other to be wrong,
when they ought really be concentrating on trying to see the
reasoning behind the others PoV.
We can only rely upon God's Holy Spirit's convicting influence
towards self moderation to raise the level of 'what we are'.
[/quote]If I may add a little?
A man only needs to show why he feels he may be right. A boy
thinks he can do that by "proving" someone else wrong.
"Yes" the other guy might be wrong, but God has already told us
that part is His business to handle as He sees fit, not ours.
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