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#Post#: 9143--------------------------------------------------
A Quandary
By: Pat Date: October 9, 2016, 11:02 am
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Most of us on here seem to have opted out of church for one
reason or another but after my last post in Mike's Testimony
thread, I've been wondering whether it isn't our duty as
followers of Jesus to belong to a local fellowship group.
Each one of us is uniquely individual and we all have something
unique to bring to the church because of that. Even when we
can't see what it is or feel that we don't fit, we have been
called to be part of God's family; part of Christ's body.
If we can't find a perfect fellowship shouldn't we bite the
bullet, as it were, and attend meetings even when we are unhappy
about the way they are conducted. If we are absent we can't
changed anything, we can't be role models to anyone, we can't
teach anyone or share God's grace in our lives with them.
Although for many years I always went to church meetings every
Sunday it must be over two years since I attended regularly. I
am in a quandary. How do I reconcile what I've just written
with what I feel inside? Which is, thank you very much but no
thanks, I prefer to go it alone.
Your thoughts on this please.
#Post#: 9144--------------------------------------------------
Re: A Quandary
By: Helen Date: October 9, 2016, 11:45 am
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Hi Pat.
Yes I think it is an individual thing. No "right or wrong", but
whatever God is speaking.
If I felt prompted to go to a meeting I would go. For the
most part, where I stand is..I look at "Egypt" which biblically
is a type of 'the world'...and see nothing good in worldly
things.
I look at Babylon which biblically is typed as the 'church
system' and see how much of the world has taken over the church,
and the riches increase at the cost of the sheep. So I take the
words of Revelation to heart when thinking of the Babylonish
system.
"For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her
fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed
fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed
rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard
another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people,
that you be not partakers of her sins..."
But as I said...it is a personal thing and something we each
need to 'hear' for ourself.
#Post#: 9147--------------------------------------------------
Re: A Quandary
By: Pat Date: October 9, 2016, 12:28 pm
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[quote author=Helen link=topic=624.msg9144#msg9144
date=1476031556]
Hi Pat.
Yes I think it is an individual thing. No "right or wrong", but
whatever God is speaking.
If I felt prompted to go to a meeting I would go. For the
most part, where I stand is..I look at "Egypt" which biblically
is a type of 'the world'...and see nothing good in worldly
things.
I look at Babylon which biblically is typed as the 'church
system' and see how much of the world has taken over the church,
and the riches increase at the cost of the sheep. So I take the
words of Revelation to heart when thinking of the Babylonish
system.
"For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her
fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed
fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed
rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard
another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people,
that you be not partakers of her sins..."
But as I said...it is a personal thing and something we each
need to 'hear' for ourself.
[/quote]
I'm thinking that the opposite should be true; that we should go
unless we are prompted not to go.
Isn't God 'speaking' when scripture tells us not to give up the
habit of meeting together?
It doesn't say anything about having to like it but that meeting
together should be a habit rather than a preference.
Hence my quandary.
And when scripture says,
Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes. Rev 18:4-5
To me it refers to worldly Babylon not the fellowship of
believers.
#Post#: 9148--------------------------------------------------
Re: A Quandary
By: Helen Date: October 9, 2016, 3:33 pm
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Pat said. To me it ( that scripture) refers to worldly Babylon
not the fellowship of believers
Like I said...we must each 'hear' and be responsible before God
for our choice.
I don't see any " worldly Babylon" ...Babylon in scripture is
always the religious system...whereas Egypt in Scripture refers
to,the world.
It seems that maybe something is telling 'you' to get into
fellowship. ;D
Blessings to,you. May peace reign. X
#Post#: 9151--------------------------------------------------
Re: A Quandary
By: Amadeus Date: October 9, 2016, 8:35 pm
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The right or wrong of attending one place regularly must be, I
believe, in accord with what God speaks to our heart. The
answer will not be the same for every believer for every
believer is not to have the same function in the Body of Christ.
The Body of Christ does need to function under the Headship of
Jesus to accomplish its purpose.
Some people, including ministers, get hung up on this verse:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together,
as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much
the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Is this always talking to an individual about church service
attendance as we know it, or is it not simply advising us to get
together with other believers? Those two things are not
precisely the same although at times they may be. I see the need
to obey this verse in order to obey the one above in Hebrews:
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my
name, there am I in the midst of them.
Notice that I put emphasis on the words in the name for that is
what must be important in our assemblies, wherever and whatever
they are...
If we gathering with others in his name regularly, surely we are
"not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together"!
Anyone not having a clear understanding of what it means to be
in his name should perhaps pray and study on that.
#Post#: 9152--------------------------------------------------
Re: A Quandary
By: Amadeus Date: October 9, 2016, 8:39 pm
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I see the "come out of her" as meaning to come out of whatever
places of confusion we may be in... This may be an particular
single assembly or a denomination or it may be simply out a
situation which will confuse our understanding of what God is
saying to us. For any one person it may include one of these or
all of them. Hearing God's voice is essential for each believer
in order to know what to do and to grow in Him.
#Post#: 9153--------------------------------------------------
Re: A Quandary
By: Pat Date: October 10, 2016, 4:30 am
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I have probably got it wrong about Babylon, but think that
whatever this verse is telling us it is not to telling us to
leave the church. (When I say 'church' here I'm not talking
about the big denominational churches but of those smaller more
formal groups started by people who have already left those who
came out of denominations because they could see that there was
a better way.)
Could the fact that so many Christians these days are out of
fellowship be to do with the enemy? The bible says that the
Church is the body of Christ. So doesn't the enemy want to
destroy it. He failed to destroy Jesus' human body and now
seeks to destroy the Church. But we seem to be listening to the
voice of the enemy telling us it is ok to do our own thing and
keep away from our brethren.
We may say, 'I haven't heard God speak to my heart so I'm not
going.' But surely God wants us to be joined together,
worshiping and praising him in groups. I believe it is God's
heart that we meet together and we may need him to show us
where, but even if he does it may not be where we ant to be;
there maybe people we don't get on with; there may be teaching
we disagree with; they may sing songs we don't enjoy. But those
are not reasons not to be part of the body.
By not meeting together we are weakening the Church. And that
is just what the enemy wants.
Helen said perhaps God was speaking to me about this. Well
perhaps he is, but I'm just trying to get my head round it,
exploring my thoughts as it were. But I'm praying too.
#Post#: 9154--------------------------------------------------
Re: A Quandary
By: Mike Date: October 10, 2016, 4:45 am
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I've had another careful re-read of Revelation chapters 17-20
and I reckon 'Babylon the Great' to be the RC/Orthodox
denomination (the "great tree that grew out of the tiny mustard
seed) plus the denominational explosion (the nesting of the
birds of the air) that followed the 'Reformation' (see Matthew
13:31-32)
I reckon peeps like Helen and I have indeed "come out of" that
particular "her".
#Post#: 9155--------------------------------------------------
Re: A Quandary
By: Pat Date: October 10, 2016, 5:33 am
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[quote author=Mike link=topic=624.msg9154#msg9154
date=1476092726]
I reckon peeps like Helen and I have indeed "come out of" that
particular "her".
[/quote]
Me too Mike. I came out of the Anglican church partly because
although I was saved there I couldn't be baptised there. I
joined a group of like-minded people who had come out from all
denominations and were from all walks of life but now I seem to
have 'come out' of that as well, seemingly for no other reason
that I got bored with it and didn't like the worship songs. I'm
asking myself, and anybody else who's reading this, is that a
god enough reason.
The verse Helen quoted from Rev was one of the words that had me
leaving the CoE, but I don't feel that it relevant to people
leaving so-called New Testament churches in ever increasing
numbers.
Like I said I'm in a bit of a quandary and hope that by getting
my thoughts out it will help me to see things more clearly.
#Post#: 9157--------------------------------------------------
Re: A Quandary
By: guest26 Date: October 10, 2016, 6:41 am
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I would not want to try to judge what anyone's conscience is
telling him; but I do know that sometimes we are apt to blame
ourselves for things when we feel something is wrong. There
are times when we wish we could feel unity with others; but
let's be honest, unity with some people isn't possible.
Getting together in a room and calling it a church may get the
bodies together; but it's not forming the Body of Christ. Go
ahead and feel bad about that; but if you haven't done anything
to people, just accept it. you can't force them to come
together spiritually. . . no matter how often you get together
with them physically. Look what Jesus said of wishing to get
people together:
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets,
and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have
gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood
under her wings, and ye would not!
35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I
say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye
shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
One can't pretend. One has to accept facts.
Particularly difficult are those situations when church
leadership is weak and does not discipline members or when
church leadership itself is corrupt. A church filled with
hypocrites is not a real church.
1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye
are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord
Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the
flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord
Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven
leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump,
as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed
for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither
with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the
unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with
fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or
with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then
must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any
man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an
idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with
such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do
not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away
from among yourselves that wicked person.
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