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       #Post#: 16046--------------------------------------------------
       Job 41
       By: Dave Date: January 1, 2023, 6:38 pm
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       I’ve been looking at this chapter concerning Leviathan but a
       few verses before 41 the Lord makes a statement to Job; “Behold
       now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.”
       Where did that take place I ask?
       This Leviathan creature is mentioned also in Ps 74 vs 13, Ps 104
       vs 26 and in Isa 27 vs 1 it is named as a piercing and crooked
       serpent, and a dragon, all this came from an old booklet on
       deliverance that I came across this Christmas, and in it they
       give examples of this serpent as being active in the world and
       in people, which took me to looking at a book written in 1651
       called Leviathan: Or, The Matter, Forme and power of the
       commonwealth by Thomas Hobbes, he also has a book on Behemoth:
       in his Leviathan is where the writer raises a whole lot of stuff
       taking place today, in his day it came under political
       philosophy, not having access to his work it would be
       interesting to know if he saw it as a spirit in his day.
       This is probably a “ you had to be there moment” but it had me
       thinking “we wrestle not with flesh and blood but———-“ has
       anyone had any dealings with a Leviathan?
       #Post#: 16047--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Job 41
       By: guest71 Date: January 1, 2023, 11:56 pm
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       [quote author=Dave link=topic=1053.msg16046#msg16046
       date=1672619939]
       EDITED
       I’ve been looking at this chapter concerning Leviathan but a few
       verses before 41 the Lord makes a statement to Job; “Behold now
       behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.”
       This Leviathan creature is named as a dragon and as a piercing
       and crooked serpent, this serpent being active in the world and
       in people or, according to Thomas Hobbes, The Matter, Forme and
       power of the commonwealth.
       This is probably a “ you had to be there moment” but it had me
       thinking “we wrestle not with flesh and blood but———-“ has
       anyone had any dealings with a Leviathan?
       [/quote]
       Blimey Dave, you have sure had one of those "things that go bump
       in the night" experiences.
       Reminds me of Kerry and his thoughts on 'incubus and succubus
       nightmares' as defined by wikipedia "Nightmares derives from
       'incubus', which is, in male form, a horse like demon that seeks
       to have sexual intercourse with sleeping women; the
       corresponding spirit in female form being called a 'succubus'.
       In medieval Europe, union with an incubus was supposed by some
       to result in the birth of witches, demons, and deformed human
       offspring."
       #Post#: 16048--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Job 41
       By: guest71 Date: January 2, 2023, 12:02 am
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       Sorry, accidental duplication.
       #Post#: 16049--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Job 41
       By: Rita Date: January 2, 2023, 12:18 am
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       Never heard of it before Dave - how would we know we have
       encountered this kind of spirit, how would it show itself ?
       #Post#: 16050--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Job 41
       By: guest71 Date: January 2, 2023, 12:54 am
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       [quote author=Rita link=topic=1053.msg16049#msg16049
       date=1672640322]
       Never heard of it before Dave - how would we know we have
       encountered this kind of spirit, how would it show itself ?
       [/quote]
       Paranormality, in general, seems to 'pass me by', but I have no
       answer to the situations wherein a young child (for instance)
       has been known to accurately recount historical events, of which
       they could not have had any 'normal' prior knowledge.
       Leaves me unqualified to suggest how one recognises a 'spirit',
       but my guess is that the means might well vary person to person
       (there is, however the scriptural advice in 1John 4:1-3)
       #Post#: 16052--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Job 41
       By: Rita Date: January 2, 2023, 7:23 am
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       I did look up the passages and links to Job 41, but came away
       thinking of something quite different ….
       The Leviathan was created by God as part of his original
       creation, and it was good. ….however over the years and within
       different cultures it had been created into a feared creature, a
       monster.
       Job would have known what God was talking about when he spoke
       about the creature in chapter 41.
       However it made me wonder what else people have created as
       monsters……it actually made me think of how man has perceived
       Satan over the years, all the  images and fears that have been
       born out of man’s imagination.
       #Post#: 16056--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Job 41
       By: James Date: January 2, 2023, 11:55 am
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       Interesting.
       I have found his book and have read some, because of the age,
       it is written in a very deferential way with much preamble. I
       have not yet come to anything that would confirm or not, that he
       saw Leviathan as a spirit of his time.
       #Post#: 16057--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Job 41
       By: Dave Date: January 2, 2023, 3:10 pm
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       Thanks for everybody's 10cents, I pulled him up on wikiP but
       if one sees a one world emerging, his philosophy for his day of,
       no separation of power, a sovereign must control civil,military,
       judicial and ecclesiastical powers sort of fits into what the
       'world' is instituting today, we can single out different men
       and women with agenda's today, and that raises the question
       could the spirit ( as a principality) behind them be the
       Leviathan?
       Cp 41 ends with He beholdeth all high things, he is king over
       all the children of 'pride". Proverbs says 'In the mouth of the
       foolish is a rod of pride: but the lips of the wise shall
       preserve them' 'pride" now that's another story.
       The days of the door knob casting out have fallen by the way,
       although it was part of the Lords mandate to his disciples.
       Rita, just my musing, if Job was with God at the creation of
       Levia'n it would seem to follow it was after Eden, fear is a
       great motivator for creating our own monsters, as to satan, you
       pay your money and take your choice, as to recognising any
       spirit calls for to me, the discerning of spirits, some are
       obvious but some are of the more subtle ilk.
       Paul exhorts Tim' to stir up the gift, one concludes it was
       dormant at that time, maybe  the spirits of today also enjoy the
       spirit of dormancy too? 'Nuff said as they say.
       
       #Post#: 16059--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Job 41
       By: Rita Date: January 3, 2023, 12:36 am
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       Hi Dave,
       I didn’t think Job was with God when the creature was created,
       my reference to job knowing what God meant was in reference to
       him describing the mythological creature that the Canaanite’s
       and others cultures had turned the creature into over the years.
       So I still believe the creature was good and there before the
       fall.
       God was saying to Job, who is above these things……..the things
       you fear, who is able to defeat them.
       For me personally Looking at the passages spoke to me about
       something different to what you were looking at….
       Xx
       #Post#: 16060--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Job 41
       By: Dave Date: January 3, 2023, 11:05 am
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       [size=14pt]Point taken Rita, assumption on my part based on the
       chapter before where the Lord says to Job " Behold now Behemoth
       which "I made with thee;"______ " I for one puzzle, if you are
       sitting in ashes and not having a good week, why the Lord brings
       up the creature at all except and he seems to nearly humanise
       it, by  saying, Will he speak or make a covenant, other than
       bringing Jobs thinking around to acknowledge just how great is
       the Lord. Maybe the point being any monster created is inferior
       to the God we serve, and they can be slain by the sword.
       Isaiah 27 vs 1 is interesting: and also in that John in Rev
       writes that he saw a monster in the sea, if we take Rev' as the
       end times, the types signify meaning.
       [/size
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