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#Post#: 41--------------------------------------------------
Louisiana Sportsman Coalition
By: Marc Date: September 3, 2017, 10:22 am
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Has anyone else been following these guys? Seems like they are
doing a very good job of alienating landowners, and not much
else.
I've been pretty vocal about the whole private marsh thing
but at the same time I understand people acquired this land
legally. Trying to strip people of their private property rights
is generally a bad thing but there is some merit to their
argument. However, zeal is not a measure of merit. Right now
LASC participants are acting like zealots rather than
conservationists. It's starting to look like they may be causing
more harm than good. Board members aren't likely to see this and
I certainly don't care enough to get on Facebook and join the
band of armchair lawyers to spew uninformed nonsense all over
the public group page for anyone willing to have a look.
As best as I can tell, the groups 'board members' are taking
credit for getting a resolution passed to do a study on the
access issues. They also imply a work going on behind the
scenes, I'll keep my opinion to myself on that one. Where it
really goes sideways for me is their statement on wanting
unrestricted access to all free flowing tidal water. To water,
from water; if you will. No efforts have been made by the
leadership to pitch alternatives or even a backup plan. Two of
the biggest public land organizations have brought chapters to
the southeastern states in recent months without any help from
LASC. BHA has recently started a Louisiana chapter, nothing was
mentioned by LASC. Same for the TRCP. LASC pimped me out of $20
once already and then I spent the next 12 months randomly
checking their Facebook page only to see members suggesting a
bizarre form of civil disobedience and lots of complaining about
CCA. I never fully understood why they think CCA should take up
their fight, but I digress. Nobody likes breaking unjust laws
more than I do but suggesting people trespass is not how you
extend your access. In fact, one land owner who's been so kind
to allow me to fish his property called me wanting to take my
access away because of these clowns.
I won't bore anyone with Roosevelt and Leopold quotes, or
anymore of my hippie dippie bullshit. However, I do believe if
we approached this issue from a more thoughtful place, we could
bring together like minded conservationists and make real
progress. Rather than parroting legal terms without ever
attending a single day of law school does little to help the
cause, and that's were I see the group right now. It's constant
shouting from a tiny soapbox about navigable waterways. If they
spent half this much time asking land owners how we can better
the situation for everybody, we may actually get somewhere. I
firmly believe there are both a legal and moral cases to opening
up access to flowing water, but without the help of other groups
I simply do not think there are enough recreational fisherman to
do the job.
A few interesting links for anyone who's got some free time.
Lee Zurik wrote a six part piece called 'Dirty Deeds' which sort
of outlines how we got into this mess in the first place and how
deep the corruption goes. Even our current Governor, along with
the entire legislature, had the chance to right one of the
biggest wrongs in our states history but was talked out of it by
that dirt bag Ty Bromell.
Part 1
HTML http://www.fox8live.com/story/18067615/lee-zurik-investigation-dirty-deeds-cost-louisiana-hundreds-of-millions
Some local news after BASS announced they are making Louisiana
off limits to all participants. This will almost certainly cost
many millions in lost revenue
HTML https://www.houmatimes.com/news/land-ownership-fisherman-s-rights-creates-blur-gray-area/article_c2c8417a-8d97-11e7-a136-1ba50a71f31d.html/?hsdhfsd
HTML https://www.houmatimes.com/opinion/our-view-troubled-waters-need-a-fix-and-fast/article_d42bacc6-8d98-11e7-b7ba-4750f8663366.html
#Post#: 42--------------------------------------------------
Re: Louisiana Sportsman Coalition
By: Catchcoma Date: September 4, 2017, 1:03 am
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Well stated, Marc.
The problem is twofold: liability issues and duck hunting. I
think the first has an easier solution than the second. My
cousin owns property in the marsh and has told me that he
doesn't mind boats 8 months of the year. But sadly, they like
to run in all 12 months. Nothing angers a duck hunter more than
seeing a boat spook off the birds.
I know a lot of folks pay a good deal of money for a duck lease.
Seems they should have their right to hunt as much as we have
our right to fish. Somewhere there's a solution. I just hope
they can find it insteading of alienating everyone.
#Post#: 44--------------------------------------------------
Re: Louisiana Sportsman Coalition
By: Marc Date: September 4, 2017, 9:36 am
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Can you expand on the liability issues? I've heard this claim go
both ways. If you get hurt while trespassing, it's your own
problem. I've also heard that Louisiana has some of the
strongest laws protecting land owners from such cases. It seems
like this explanation gets used when it best fits whichever side
the person is on and I don't know enough about it to really have
an opinion.
I've always felt like the duck hunting side of the argument was
a bit of a red herring. To say a lease holder doesn't care 8
months out of the year makes little sense. Without the fisherman
the duck hunters don't exists. There is simply not enough of
them, and with numbers dwindling they are becoming even more out
numbered. I guess what I'm trying to say is bothers me that
there is a hierarchy placed on sportsmen and somehow duck
hunters get bumped to the top because of the length of the
season and high participation cost.
#Post#: 45--------------------------------------------------
Re: Louisiana Sportsman Coalition
By: Brett Date: September 4, 2017, 10:02 am
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I believe Louisiana has a recreational use statute that protects
landowners from liability if they allow access for recreational
purposes and do not charge for that access.
I was talking to a guy patrolling a beach in Walton County FL
about beach access. He explained to me that the beach is
generally privately owned to the mean high water line. However,
the county passed a law allowing public access to the privately
owned beaches. Without going into too much detail, the
landowners do have some control of the activities on their beach
but cannot completely deny access. For example, they cannot
kick you off the beach, but they can prevent you from putting up
a tent on the beach or from bringing your pet.
I'll bet the property owners didn't care too much for this, but
the county knows that beach access provides tourism dollars.
I couldn't help but think of the similarities between their
issues and ours. I suspect a decent lawyer could destroy my
reasoning.....
Edit to ask how the "Dirty Deeds" investigation is related to
tidal marsh access?
#Post#: 46--------------------------------------------------
Re: Louisiana Sportsman Coalition
By: Marc Date: September 4, 2017, 12:32 pm
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Maybe saying it started this whole mess is a little bit of a
hyperbole, but it certainly gave reason to take public lands and
put it into private hands. These governors gave leases to their
friends in return for some of the property being given back to
the Win or Lose corporation so royalty payments could be secured
in perpetuity for themselves and their heirs. This land was
owned by the people of the state of Louisiana, it is now owned
by the descendants of Long, Noe, Burton, and god knows who else
that had their hands in the cookie jar. Texaco is even wrapped
up in Win or Lose. We are talking about enormous pieces of land.
I can't help myself...
[quote]To waste, to destroy, our natural resources, to skin and
exhaust the land instead of using it so as to increase its
usefulness, will result in undermining in the days of our
children the very prosperity which we ought by right to hand
down to them Theodore Roosevelt,[/quote]
#Post#: 47--------------------------------------------------
Re: Louisiana Sportsman Coalition
By: Marc Date: September 4, 2017, 12:59 pm
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Just for fun, lets look at the people who get royalty payments
from State Lease 340. This is just one half million acre lease.
There are many more of these leases. This should give a
perspective of why getting water access laws changed on a
legislative level will be nearly impossible.
1) Sabine Louisiana Royalty Trust (New Orleans)
2) Charlotte Angus Alexander (Pt. Clear, Alabama)
3) Bryan Allen (Shreveport, LA)
4) American Association of Petroleum Geologists Foundation
(Tulsa, OK)
5) Amoco Production Company (Houston, TX)
6) Will Emogene Atwater FBO Sylvia A. Calo (New Orleans)
7) Gladys J. Averill (Victoria, TX)
8) Mrs. Bobby Babcock (Austin, TX)
9) Bankers Insurance Agency represented by C.R. Williams
(Texas)
10) Bayou Country Trust G.W. Schneider (Metairie)
11) Emanuel Benjamin, III (New Orleans)
12) David C. Bintliff and Co (Texas)
13) Jayne Black (Dallas, TX)
14) Blue Charm Partnership Asa Benton Allen (Monroe County,
Florida)
15) Charles Boettcher (Texas)
16) John Bricker (New Orleans)
17) Marsha McFarland Budz (Boulder, CO)
18) Taylor Caffery (New Orleans)
19) Carolyn Jane Calo (Florida)
20) Casandra Ann Calo (Florida)
21) Joseph James Calo, Jr. (Florida)
22) Marilyn Jean Calo (Florida)
23) Earle J. Christenberry, Jr. (New Orleans)
24) Victoria Christenberry (Jefferson County, Alabama)
25) Jennie V. Clarke (Nueces County, Texas)
26) Nancy Edit Shaddock Clements (Calcasieu Parish)
27) Joel Wolfe Cowand (Spring, TX)
28) Maxine Ferguson Davis (Benton County, Arkansas)
29) Mary Elisa Noe Deane (Califorina)
30) Linda L. Lawton Drost (Calcasieu Parish)
31) Evelyn Gay Lawton Duhon (Calcasieu Parish)
32) Charlotte Hillyer Dupuy (New Orleans)
33) Marsha Fleming Eatherton (Houston, TX)
34) EBP-1994 William E. Shaddock (Calcasieu Parish)
35) The EGL Family Trust William Lawton (Calcasieu Parish)
36) Doris Epley (Palm Beach, FL)
37) Irma Erickson (Chicago, IL)
38) Charles E. Ervin, Jr. Trust (Arizona)
39) Louise Ferguson (New Mexico)
40) Ferro Metal and Chemical Corporation (Dade County, Florida)
41) Brad Fleming (Harris County, Texas)
42) Mary Hodge Fleming (Harris County, Texas)
43) Edward J. Fluke (Boulder, CO)
44) Terry McFarland Flue (Montana)
45) Rita Katherine Long Gilmore (New Orleans)
46) John Glassell Trust u/w of Lois H. Glassell (Shreveport)
47) Joseph S. Glickauf, Jr. (Venice, FL)
48) Nathan Goldstein (New Orleans)
49) Susan Jones Gundlach (New Orleans)
50) James A. Hall & Associates (Harris County, Texas)
51) Raymond E. Hankamer (Harris County, Texas)
52) William F. Hartnett, Jr. (Cook County, Illinois)
53) Haywood Hillyer, Jr. (Pass Christian, MS)
54) Estate of Marjorie R. Holdar (Garden Ridge, TX)
55) Estate of Wilma Ferguson Holley (Shelby County, Tennessee)
56) Clementine H. Boettcher Hollingsworth (Harris County, TX)
57) Eugene Jones Huger (New Orleans)
58) J.R. Imber (Harris County, Texas)
59) E.H. Jackson (Baytown, TX)
60) J. Carol Jackson (Houston, TX)
61) Jennifer J. Jasper (Wimberley, TX)
62) The JEL Inter Vivos Class Trust Holly Bugg Lawton
(Calcasieu Parish)
63) Joseph Merrick Jones, Jr. (New Orleans)
64) Mary Craig Shaddock Jones (Houston, TX)
65) N.A. trustee of the K.P. Trust Don McAdams, Jr. (Baton
Rouge)
66) Will of Howard H.Karr FBO Joan S. Karr (New Orleans)
67) Suzanne Wilkins Kearney (New Orleans)
68) Kathryn Schneider King (Baton Rouge)
69) Susan Schneider King (Baton Rouge)
70) Katharine P. Labouisse (New Orleans)
71) Katharine Labouisse Trust (New Orleans)
72) Lavies Enterprises
a. Earl Archer, III (Jackson County, North Carolina)
b. Juanita Archer (Escambia County, Florida)
c. Victoria Luhrs (Washington)
d. Anita Mazer (Louisiana)
e. Ruby McArdle (Jefferson County, Alabama)
f. William G. McArdle (Walton County, Florida)
g. Louise L. Meagher (Jefferson County, Alabama)
h. Rebecca A. Riegel (Out of state)
i. Earl Archer, III Class Trust (Jackson County, North Carolina)
73) Lavies Partnership same as above
74) Jack Lawton, Inc. (Calcasieu Parish)
75) Jack Edward Lawton (Calcasieu Parish)
76) Jack Edward Lawton, Jr. (Calcasieu Parish)
77) William Burton Lawton (Calcasieu Parish)
78) William B. Lawton Company, Inc. (Calcasieu Parish)
79) Allain G. Davidson, Jr. (Calcasieu Parish)
80) Palmer R. Long, Trustee of the RML Trust #1, #2, #3, and
Succession of Rose McConnell Long (LA)
81) Katherine H. Long (Baton Rouge)
82) The Laura Louene Long Trust (Louisiana)
83) Palmer Long (Caddo Parish)
84) Palmer Long, Jr. (Caddo Parish)
85) Russell B. Long (District of Columbia ) *this is former
Senator Russell Long
86) Laura Louene Long Lubin (Louisiana)
87) Charles Mazal (Texas)
88) Pamela R. Long McCardell (Boyle County, Kentucky)
89) Rory Scott McFarland (Boulder, CO)
90) Rose Long McFarland (Boulder, CO)
91) Catherine McGouen (Lafayette)
92) Mary Lois McIlwain (Houston, TX)
93) Bart McClendon (Dallas, TX)
94) Succession of Gay Noe McClendon (New Orleans)
95) Maxine Boettcher Means (Texas)
96) Minroy Limited Partnership (Harris County, Texas)
97) Marion E. Monroe Trust (Palm Beach, FL)
98) Pamela and Ronald Monsour (Caddo Parish)
99) Dean M. Mosely (LaSalle Parish)
100) Janette Gray McClendon Moss (New Orleans)
101) Evelyn Burton Shaddock Murray (Calcasieu Parish)
102) Charles J. Napoli (New Orleans)
103) Sara Nesbit (California)
104) Morris W. Newman (Metairie)
105) Anna Gray Sweeney Noe Trust for Claire Lee Noe, James Noe,
Jr. and Betty Noe.(New Orleans)
106) Anna Gray Sweeney Noe Trust for George McRaie Noe, James
Noe, Jr., and Betty Noe (New Orleans)
107) James A. Noe, Jr. (New Orleans)
108) James A. Noe, Sr. Trust for Claire Lee Noe, James A. Noe,
Jr. Trustee (New Orleans)
109) James A. Noe, Sr. trust for George McRae Noe, James A. Noe,
Jr. Trustee (New Orleans)
110) James A. Noe, III (Minnesota)
111) Walter Oliphant (Palm Beach, FL)
112) Mary Ferguson Pecarrere (New Orleans)
113) Phantor, Ltd. (Houston, TX)
114) Nathaniel Phillips (New Orleans)
115) Trustee of the Edith B. Plauche Testamentary Trust for Mary
Edith Woosley (Calcasieu Parish)
116) Trustee of the Edith B. Plauche testamentary Trust for
Terrell Woosley, III (Calcasieu Parish)
117) Charles E. Plumhoff (Travis County, Texas)
118) Walter Craig Plumhoff (Harris County, Texas)
119) Estate of Aubrey H. Rabensburg (Harris County, Texas)
120) George W. Schneider (Harris County, Texas)
121) Steven Schneider (Dallas, TX)
122) Mary Margaret Hodge Sour (Caddo Parish)
123) Stephen Gorham Shaddock (Lake Charles, LA)
124) William Edward Shaddock, Jr. (Calcasieu Parish)
125) Skye Properties Partnership (Harris County, Texas)
126) Robert Stalcup (Texas)
127) David Scott Stare (Sonoma, CA)
128) Frederick Allen Stare (Cook County, Illinois)
129) Tower Entergy Co, Inc. (Calcasieu Parish)
130) Turnberry, Inc. Harris County, TX)
131) Carolyn H. Turner (Bossier, LA)
132) Emmett Vaughey Estate (Mississippi)
133) Vermillion Exploration Company (Calcasieu Parish)
134) Mary Jane Gamble (Glynn, Georgia)
135) Bobbie Ann Dugan Weiss (El Paso County, Colorado)
136) Jana Lynn Weiss (El Paso County, Colorado)
137) Don R. McAdams (Baton Rouge)
138) Thomas Milton Weiss (Denver, CO)
139) William B. Weiss (Pueblo, CO)
140) William Morris Weiss (Dallas, TX)
141) Wilcox 1992 Acquisition Fund, Ltd. (Caddo Parish)
142) William A. Wilkins, Jr. (New Orleans)
143) Mary Stare Wilkinson (Connecticut)
144) Wilkinson-Stare Childrens Trusts (Massachusetts)
145) Robert L. Williams (Arizona)
146) Carolyn Shaddock Woosley (Los Angeles, CA)
147) Mary Edith Woosley (Calcasieu Parish)
148) Terrell Woosley, III (Calcasieu Parish)
149) Jane Erin Noe Young (Dekalb, GA)
150) Alwyn P. King, Jr. Family Trust (Harris County, TX)
151) William Scully (Jefferson Parish)
152) Robin F. Scully (Jefferson Parish)
153) Linda Tharpe Cann (Caddo Parish)
154) Anna Gray McLendon (New Orleans)
155) John Newsham (New Orleans)
#Post#: 48--------------------------------------------------
Re: Louisiana Sportsman Coalition
By: Bayoutalker Date: September 4, 2017, 2:50 pm
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How about an historic solution? If a body of water has been open
for "X" years for public use it should stay that way. New water
that is created by natural forces such as erosion, decay, etc
and new canals that are built by property owners to provide
access to their property are the property of the landowner and
subject to their control. That should be fair to everyone. Any
canals paid for by public funds are public property and
available for public use.
#Post#: 49--------------------------------------------------
Re: Louisiana Sportsman Coalition
By: Marc Date: September 4, 2017, 3:11 pm
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Not sure how you would go about deciding what has been public.
If something is private but has been treated as public, it
doesn't make it any less private. Just because you don't
exercise your rights, does not mean you should lose them.
In a lot of ways this is very similar to the gun control debate.
The dialog was opened by people explaining how they wanted to
strip people of private property rights, even if the property
was obtained legally. When that happens, the defending side has
no choice but to take the hard line approach of no compromise. I
would much rather see an organization come in and start
acquiring land and reverting it back to public access. That may
be a conversation worth having. However, if you go to a land
owner saying you're taking his property, you're going to get
chased out of the room. Why bother giving someone an inch if it
only makes them closer to getting the entire mile?
#Post#: 51--------------------------------------------------
Re: Louisiana Sportsman Coalition
By: Bayoutalker Date: September 4, 2017, 5:35 pm
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Until recent laws were enacted most navigable waterways were
considered public use. The land surrounding them was private. If
you stepped on the land you were trespassing. There is no reason
that it should be any different today. In most states, and
federal law, navigable waters are the domain of the government
and open to public use. Still, the land is private and subject
to trespass. Why should Louisiana be any different? That doesn't
take anything from a landowner that should have ever been his.
Swamp areas that have been created or improved by the landowner
should be considered his property the same as if a person put in
a swimming pool at his house. That area he should be able to
block access to since he created the access. Just because it is
water doesn't make it public.
#Post#: 55--------------------------------------------------
Re: Louisiana Sportsman Coalition
By: Catchcoma Date: September 4, 2017, 11:24 pm
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If I recall, there was a bill in the state legislature a few
years back that would've allowed landowners to donate surface
rights to the state for restoration purposes and yet maintain
the mineral rights for 99 years.
Seems that would be a solution to build upon.
I doubt seriously if, after 99 years, we still have an oil-based
energy domain.
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