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       #Post#: 8598--------------------------------------------------
       Checking My Logic
   DIR By: rafe
       Date: January 22, 2015, 7:08 am
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       Morning Jed,
       These thoughts/realizations mushroomed in my head yesterday
       morning and I would welcome some analysis if you have the time.
       It feels like a slow crystallization.
       Perceiver-Perception-Perceived can't disappear.  Even if you
       took away all methods of physical perception, leaving only
       consciousness, then consciousness would simply begin imaging new
       things to perceive.  It would immediately relaunch P-P-P like
       rebooting a computer.  How long would it take a newly imagined
       dream world to seem as concrete as this dream world.
       People say that removing the senses would be like sleep without
       dreams and assert that particular scenario as proof of a time
       when Consciousness does not exist.  This is presented as an
       argument that Consciousness is not Truth/All.  But we've never
       experienced a state of no consciousness and to assert we have is
       faulty logic.  We have experienced sleep with dreams, sleep with
       a hint of dreams we can barely remember, and periods of time we
       call unconscious because our waking-reality selves don't recall
       certain periods when we were asleep.  But no memory of events is
       not the same as no Consciousness during those events.  I don't
       have any memory of being born, but I assume to have been
       conscious at that apparent event.
       So, you can't take perceived away from perceiver (and perception
       is just as inextricable).  You said it perfectly:  you can't
       take wet out of water.  But you can change its state.  If the
       three are the same, then "the perceived" is me in waking
       consensus reality as certainly as it is me in what is called our
       dreams.
       With deep Gratitude,
       Rafe
       #Post#: 8622--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Checking My Logic
   DIR By: Jed McKenna
       Date: January 23, 2015, 10:10 am
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       Dear Rafe:
       I'll just take one of you sentences,
       Perceiver-Perception-Perceived can't disappear.  Even if you
       took away all methods of physical perception, leaving only
       consciousness, then consciousness would simply bregin imaging
       new things to perceive.  It would immediately relaunch P-P-P
       like rebooting a computer.
       Is this really true? If so, tell me how you know, what have you
       done in order to determine it? You are imagining how things will
       be (you said ''it would'') which indicates you are just imaging
       what would happen, not experiencing. Look and see and let me
       know.
       Love ya, Jed.
       #Post#: 8722--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Checking My Logic
   DIR By: rafe
       Date: January 25, 2015, 7:06 am
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       Morning Jed,
       Below I've begun breaking down the statement as you suggested.
       I keep running into the fact that I just don't know...and then
       what?  I can't make a statement that I can back up.  Again, I
       would appreciate any direction, especially regarding the
       Terrence Mckenna information.
       I don’t have direct knowledge that P-P-P can’t disappear, but I
       don’t have direct knowledge that it can either.
       I don’t know that all methods of physical perception could be
       taken away.  I don't even really know what physical perception
       is.
       What is a physical perception?
       A physical perception appears to be non-physical data
       interpreted as and acted upon under the assumption that it
       actually is what it is presumed to be. CIRCULAR!
       Who would take it away and where would it go?
       The question assumes that it could be taken away.  The question
       assumes there is someone other than me to take from me.  The
       question assumes there is a me.  The question assumes that there
       is somewhere other than here.  The question assumes that here is
       actually here.  I have no direct knowledge of “other than here”
       especially because I don’t know where “here is.”  I don’t even
       know how I would determine the boundary of here-not-there.  For
       example is a dream here or not? Where is awareness?  Can it go
       anywhere?  If we are the space in which this “stuff” exists,
       then dimensional language such as here and there, or locality of
       any kind is irrelevant.
       I studied Terrence Mckenna’s works for a long time before I
       embarked upon an exploration of DMT.  Five different journeys
       gave me a life-time of data to consider and I’ve filled journals
       trying to understand the experience.  It seems related here.
       The most I can say about it at this point is that I/Not-I
       went/stayed to/in a place/not-a-place in which Rafe was/wasn’t.
       There was what I would call individuated consciousness but words
       fail here because the individuated aspect was not individual at
       all.  There was no division, period.  As such, all duality
       became pretty entertaining:  right/wrong, good/evil,
       Rafe/Not-Rafe, now/later, etc… totally laughable.   This is the
       most direct knowledge I have of something that seems to point at
       Truth.  Even death did not make sense there.  It appeared more
       like one of those 3-d art works where you have to adjust your
       eyes just so in order to make the three dimensional aspect pop.
       It looks like one thing until a subtle shift exposes a totally
       different version of reality.
       Who would leave only consciousness?
       Don’t know.
       I don’t know that it is true that consciousness would simply
       begin imagining new things to perceive.
       I don’t know that it would immediately relaunch P-P-P like
       rebooting a computer.
       Can any of these questions even be answered if I don’t know who
       is asking them nor who would answer them.  It’s a little like a
       dog chasing its own tail.
       #Post#: 8723--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Checking My Logic
   DIR By: Jed McKenna
       Date: January 25, 2015, 7:12 am
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       It's a lot like a dog chasing it's tail. Can you just be with
       the not-know? Why would you have to know anything? Is it even
       possible?
       Well, I don't know, let me know if you find out... no... don't.
       Love ya, Jed.
       #Post#: 8724--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Checking My Logic
   DIR By: rafe
       Date: January 25, 2015, 7:43 am
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       By the way, does BYOFT mean Be Your Own F*&%ing Truth?  It's
       funny what lodges in the mill.
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